GPU market share - ATI surpass nVidia

TheRod

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THE NEWS :
<A HREF="http://theinquirer.net/?article=13856" target="_new">http://theinquirer.net/?article=13856</A>

THE COMMENTS :

Good for us! nVidia will start to feel the pressure of the market and they will to give us a kick ass product for March! And ATI don't want to sit there, they most show to everyone that they can still gives good performance in their next gen. GPU.

I can't wait to see the TRUE performance of ATI/nVidia product. And maybe Volari will not be bad in a couple of weeks/months with beter drivers.

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coolsquirtle

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whatever dude...... There are 500 more times the MX400s out there then the entire Radeon 9x00 series

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TheRod

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Hum... Yeah! But what is your point?

I know that there is tons of low-end GPU in actual PC's. My point was not this! Is that today, ATI sells more than nVidia, not a lot more but a bit more. This put pressure on nVidia. I don't think nVidia will vanish and I don't ATI will double is market share in the next couple months.

It's just interesting to see that market change. And more people, today, thinks ATI products are good.

And I repeat, I can't wait to see next-generation GPU performance. I wish we will not be disapointed.

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phial

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its obvious how much bettre ATI is doing , compared to the ol' nV


just read around. you can find stock prices and how much the company is worth on cnn also, i think..


whatever dude...... There are 500 more times the MX400s out there then the entire Radeon 9x00 series

pssst... thats not somethign to be proud of!
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CoolS, yeah but considering that all the new games don't support the MX that's irrelevant, and it looks like more and more people are replacing their MXs with ATI products. Legacy products are irrelevant. There's probably more Intel extremes out there than the entire nV line past and present.

And the mx line isn't generating any money for nV now, and isn't pushing others to compete. Hopefully parity brings stronger competition and less crap like T-he W-ay I-t's M-eant T-o B-e P-erverted. I'd rather EA provide efects to both rather than one or the other. I should be able to buy the best product out there, not feel forced to comply to some BS marketing ploy. Which is why I didn't buy NHL2004 (first NHL I've missed since '96).

I'd prefer 2 titans and 2 tough up an comers, than just one dominant giant from any company. Plus add Intel to keep everyone humble.


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kinney

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I agree but ATI has a few more years on NV.. the amount of integrated and the crap ATI put out for years before NV was concieved would probably dwarf most besides intels.

I wonder how they find out who is currently dominating the market?
Whos selling the most in the last few months? Or who has produced and sold the most GPUs since a given company has been created?

NV would be in a good position because they always put out quality stuff and it sells well.. along with the Nforces and Xbox's, depending on how you want to look at it things could be different.

ATI has been around a bit longer but I dont think the Nintendo Flipper was entirely ATI based.. infact I want to say that was entirely ArtX (just like the R3xx) and ATI aquired them later, so I dont know if those would count. If those counted, youd have to add 3dfxs sales to NV.

Anyway, thought bringing up how they gather these figures an interesting point worth adding.

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TheRod

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I wonder how they find out who is currently dominating the market?
Whos selling the most in the last few months? Or who has produced and sold the most GPUs since a given company has been created?

Market share are always on last semester or year. You can't count since the company exist sales... Because obviously, GMC would always SALES more cars than Toyota, you know what I mean...

NV would be in a good position because they always put out quality stuff and it sells well..

Humm... You really think that MX products were good? I know many people that bought GeForce cards, because they are good. And when I asked them the model, it was "MX something". And soon after they complain about game performance...

I don't that MX are totally crap, but they were not GOOD product, they were there to sale more and more cards. Like today's FX 5200 and ATI 9000/9100/9200. These cards are cheap and worthless.

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Market Share = Current sales for the period.

If you check with Mercury they can break it down for you. I look last time when ATI was on the rise. xBit spent a little more time breaking it down and provided links.

NV would be in a good position because they always put out quality stuff and it sells well..
Up until the FX5800/NV30 series.

along with the Nforces and Xbox's, depending on how you want to look at it things could be different.
Looks like the opposite this time around. The nForce3 is getting pummeled by the VIA solutions, and XboxII is going to the competition. NV40 better be good for the sake of everything, becuase their other lines aren't impressing this time around. The soundstorm add-in card MAY be something else to help, but that depends on how it performs against the AUDIGYs, and Creative is likely looking very closely at that (the ZS is already doing very well [almost as good as the best in the market now]).

ATI has been around a bit longer but I dont think the Nintendo Flipper was entirely ATI based..
Of course not, ArtX was greatly involved in the R200, and likely the R3XX series was greatly influenced. But so what? All of nV's current line is influenced by 3Dfx, so you can't divorce the two. You have to count them all.

Anyway, thought bringing up how they gather these figures an interesting point worth adding.
Well it's current sales of graphics chips. I'm sure that neither Xbox nor Gamecube contribute enough to help change their fortunes. Although for the next round nV doesn't have anything to compete against ATI's contributions to XboxNext and GameCube part Duh!

If anyone purblishes the entire breakdown it included mobile chipe, integrated, and all three levels of add in cards, plus the overall sales for all chips.

The breakdown shows alot more about the market breakup and INTEL weakening position despite it being the king of the integrated. Intel Extreme 3 is gonna own all.

In the end, the NV40 better be competitive or else things will get worse. Personally the supposed RV380 figures we saw the other day did not impress, so we shall see. I was expecting much more. And the R420 better deliver to, or what happenbed to nV last round will happen to ATI this time.



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coolsquirtle

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we all know Intel Extreme Graphic 3 will waste NV40 and R420 eyes closed ;)

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kinney

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Up until the FX5800/NV30 series.
I agree, but I meant overall. It wasnt too long before they got the 5700 and 5900 out which are good. That was only a short bump in the road IMO.
I'd be interested to see how that volari performs against a 5800 :smile: .. really! It would probably be good competition.

Looks like the opposite this time around. The nForce3 is getting pummeled by the VIA solutions, and XboxII is going to the competition.
Yeah I agree again but I was talking about more of the complete past.. the nforces sold well from nforce1 to 2.. and the A64 chipset battle is barely getting started.
You wouldnt catch me buying a VIA, no matter what some performance chart says.. I've done that before for VIA many times.

Creative is likely looking very closely at that (the ZS is already doing very well [almost as good as the best in the market now]).
I hate Creative. Audiotrak Prodigy for me. :smile:
Just a sidenote!

All of nV's current line is influenced by 3Dfx,
3dfx technology owned, their FSAA was supreme in the V5 days. It would be cool to have a site layout exactly what WAS taken from 3dfx for use in the NV30 and what wasnt.
Kinda a sidenote here too.

the NV40 better be competitive or else things will get worse.
You know my position on this. I think the NV30 based stuff is certainly considered competitive.
Basically they just took a back seat like the Radeon vs. Geforce days.

The soundstorm add-in card MAY be something else to help, but that depends on how it performs against the AUDIGYs
It will cream the audigys. It will be PCIX based only though. Its far too advanced for the PCI bus.
And it far outpaces the audigys.

And the R420 better deliver to, or what happenbed to nV last round will happen to ATI this time.
The radeon will be fine... so will the geforce.
I mean, you'll have your crap that goes around like now about how the FX sucks donkey balls and the Radeons ROXORZ, but they are both capable cards. The largest gap might come into play with all these big "DX9" games that I'm still waiting for.. but it appears to have been a farce.
By the time any really kickass dx9 games come out (yeah, referring to the old HL2/Doom3s) both new chips will be out and all this battle will have been in vain.
Hence Kinney is rocking a GF4. Yay I guess. :cool:
The market has eliminated most of the real 'junk' IMO. Or companies who do great stuff but are poor businesses.

Eh, no slight meant towards Matrox!

Because my beloved 3dfx is also in that category. :frown:

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Crashman

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we all know Intel Extreme Graphic 3 will waste NV40 and R420 eyes closed ;)
Of course they will, so long as the user keeps their eyes closed!

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I'd be interested to see how that volari performs against a 5800 .. really! It would probably be good competition.
You know the FX5800 series was bad, but it's not nearly THAT bad! :wink:

The funny thing about the nForces is that all the reviews I read about the nForce2 (which is the best for AthlonXP IMO [but cam out after I already had my board]), the main thing the reviewers said was this isn't the nForce 1, this is the real deal. Giving me the distinct impression that the first outing wasn't stellar, but obviously not crippling.

I hate Creative. Audiotrak Prodigy for me.
Personally they just work in games for me. RME is the king of Audio for me, but right now the ZS is throwing out quality that is making a $500 custom sound solution look like a huge waste of money for a lesser card. Still more richness and warm in the sound of the RME cards according to reviewers, but really that may be elitist subjective noise, the benchmarks show a different story. I just think the Audio market will be harder with so many good competitors like M-Audio and Hercules in addition to Creative, and really there are less audiophiles than FPS-centric gamers out there. It will be a hard market to capitalize on IMO. Remember that Intel has their replacement for AC97 coming out shortly too. Jammed marketplace.

3dfx technology owned, their FSAA was supreme in the V5 days.
Don't get me wrong, I agree, but truely their numbers have to be included the way that ArtX's are with ATI, just answering the original statement, nothing against 3Dfx, in fact the opposite really. Supposedly there's alot of Rampage in the NV30, the next Rampage was supposed to be the 5800 IIRC.

It would be cool to have a site layout exactly what WAS taken from 3dfx for use in the NV30 and what wasnt.
I'm sure anything saying it would be conjecture, because supposedly the NV30 was stopped and redesigned after the buyout, so it's likely a combination really, and unlike to point to exactly what is 3Dfx only, rather than 3Dfx influenced or nV influenced.

It will cream the audigys. It will be PCIX based only though. Its far too advanced for the PCI bus.
And it far outpaces the audigys.
I assume you meant PCI-EX? Like I said above, it's a competitive marketplace it better be. On paper things look great, but unless the specs translate into performance and sales, it almost doesn't matter. Personally I don't think PCI is near being overwhelmed by audio so I'm not sure what difference it will make, howveer the whole bus should mean less resource conflicts as a whole.

By the time any really kickass dx9 games come out (yeah, referring to the old HL2/Doom3s) both new chips will be out and all this battle will have been in vain.
True but once again we have some unknowns. ATI has stuck with the X by 1 pipline design and nV has continued the X by 2 design. This will (may) be ATI's first full 32bit prec. card, ATI is going with two seperate designs for for their top cards for AGP/PXI-EX, while nV is sticking with the idea of a bridge to allow for just one chip. ALL of that allows for big chances for both to F'up. I have a feeling that they will be closer than the release of the R300 which was a bit of a surprise, but I really think we could see some strange performance benifits/drawbacks for one design over another. One might anihilate the other at Quake 3, or UT2K3, or X2, or something else yet have trouble with those future titles using PS3.0/VS3.0 or something.

Personally I'm cautiously optomistic about the whole line (they would almost HAVE to be at least 15% better than EVERY card out there (from both [all if you incluge XGI] camps), but I cam going to wait 'til I see the competition before comiting to anything. I was AMPED about the RV380, they initially said it would be R9800 level performance, and yet in those early benchmarks it couldn't keep up with an R9600XT, I didn't expect them to mean an R9800SE 128bit!

As for MAtrox, they know their market and got out of the copetition just in time to save their bacon. Smart move if you ask me. Yeah if ATI or nV decided to focus on 2D they could just make that an offshoot line too, but that would require alot more quality control and direct involvement than they want, they are both moving AWAY from that with outsourcing their stuff to their OEM partners, because that lowers the margins.

In the long run ti will be interesting, and I think that whomever loses the first round will respond with something quickly to fill any gap if necessary, but if they are close to equal, then you will see more relaxed comeptition. It will be there but no one will be rushing to get another product to the market to 'save' them.

Just wish we knew more about them.


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LOL! :lol:

I can see the ad literature.

Intel Extreme Graphics plus Intel Extreme audio gives you the most EXTREMELY EXTREME gaming experience one can have on a DELL! :evil:


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kinney

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I assume you meant PCI-EX? Like I said above, it's a competitive marketplace it better be. On paper things look great, but unless the specs translate into performance and sales, it almost doesn't matter. Personally I don't think PCI is near being overwhelmed by audio so I'm not sure what difference it will make, howveer the whole bus should mean less resource conflicts as a whole.
Yes I did mean PCIEX, thank you.
About the PCI bus, I dont see it handling the SoundStorms hardware dolby digital encoding over it very well.
I'm assuming thats why we havent seen a PCI soundstorm yet, they are waiting for PCI EX.

the main thing the reviewers said was this isn't the nForce 1, this is the real deal. Giving me the distinct impression that the first outing wasn't stellar, but obviously not crippling.
Yeah I held off on NF1 due to major IDE issues but things are finally fixed with newer drivers for the NF2s.
Just like an intel now! :smile:
They are fast, I remember some benchmarks on the 9700Pro (9800Pro?) where the FPS were drastically limited on the Intel chipset due to some issue while the NF2s for some time were much faster... wish I could pull that one up.. I think it was in COD.

because supposedly the NV30 was stopped and redesigned after the buyout, so it's likely a combination really, and
Yeah and wouldve probably been good if they wouldnt have tried to do so.
I'm banking on a NV return to the usual with dx9.1/dx10.
More importantly I'm hoping their stock drops on being .2% behind ATI so I can buy some up and make some freakin $$$$.. I'm going to be checking tomorrow morning when the markets open.

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Yeah Encoding would make a difference, another reason to enjoy PCI-EX is for the AIW series (which was said to benifit from the 8X option), PCI-EX may open the idea of HDTV recording of some kind. Now that would impress.

Well I was hoping for specs on the next GEN, well here's something from Xbit they posted last night (I was out doing some 'brain shrinking and keeping up relations') that I just saw.

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040127195950.html" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040127195950.html</A>

So it is 8x2 and not 6x2. Cool!
Improved FSAA, interesting wonder what that entails, and the impact on quality method. Fragment? :eek:
16X AF, hehe. So you will be able to crunch the card to perform like an FX5950, but it will be with everything turned up WAY beyond current levels.

<A HREF="http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=de_en&url=http://www.3dcenter.de/artikel/2004/01-27_a.php" target="_new">Original 3Dcentre article run through babel</A>


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BirdRobin

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HAHA well ask them to send your guys each a DELL machine and compare it to you guys's R9800s and see them scamper in hiding. -_-

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kinney

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Very interesting.
I get much more excited about real time DD 5.1 encoding than some new EAX 'technology' (barrel effects).
At least that way Creative cant buy out the rights to DD and limit the market.
They just bought Sensaura! The technology that allows for nearly all of Creatives current competition, previously it was Aureal.
I hope NV wages a war on Creative.

If I could noose two companies it would be SCO and Creative.

The NV40 looks like it will be good. I'm starting to feel better about my decision now.
It was hurting when I started Halo and things were noticably choppy.
This card is good and solid though, I'm ordering an LCD soon (to save my eyes from furthering the 16 years of constant radiation they've endured), and with the new 90deg rotate feature I'll feel really leet when reading these forums. :cool:

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Yeah just a little more info from Xbit, but not their typical in depth look at the reprt.

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040129025439.html" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040129025439.html</A>

BTW, yeah the rotate feature is sweet for equipped monitors. I want to get and old/refurb/employee price IBM 18" LCD with the tilt/swivel/rotate for doing test work. Now ATI have incorporated the rotate function directly into the drivers (about time).

Of course the DELL factor rears it's EVIL head again!


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kinney

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Thats good ATI has rotate now. That was one of my many gripes.
You know you love it. :cool:

Have they fixed some of this stuff in a new release (last I used was 3.10 I believe)? You could tell me better than anyone if they've fixed any.

-Custom resolution and rate config.. useful for specific applications such as arcade emulation with MAME in native arcade resolutions eliminating the 60hz crap.
-The refresh fix in the drivers working correctly, I found it less than optimal (task out and back in, then your back to 60hz)
-Windows GUI acceleration, they dont seem to be accelerating the OS gfx very well.. my GF2MX was noticably faster in windows apps and it hitched while browsing. I could be crazy on this one but I'd put what little money I have on it. :smile:

I have to keep my facts straight! I'd like to be able to afford both high end cards to do comparisons of my own.
Because I dont trust Toms video reviews or all the biased sites out there.... esp after they recommended that 5600nonultra rev.1 (IIRC)

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-Custom resolutions are still not availible without a 3rd party tweak (because they expect you to run with the Display drivers supplied by your monitor mfr. But refresh rates can run out of normal. No need for refresh for anymore. I use Rage3D to give me the 1400x1050 I like. But works like a charm. I doubt they will ever support that level of functionality especially after all the monitor BS from the 3.8s But there's enough 3rd party to do that, and it is a tweak issue really, it will support uncommmon resolutions with the proper monitor drivers.

- The 60hz issue is actually an MS issue, there is a bit of literature on it at Rage3D. Not a Catalyst issue.

- Yeah I know the OS issue has been an issue for a while. Supposedly there are SOME fixes, and many people have solved their cursor issues, but I don't think they are all fixed based on the last talk upon the release of the 4.1s

Yeah the VGA Buyer's guide looks really laughable now.

I would trust Digit-Life they are top notch, report the anomalies of ATI and nV, don't care who does what but will expose everything and discuss alot of stuff. They also provide more info if you ask me. With pictures of the cards, the cores, the memory and even the screenies to show IQ.

The are my most trusted source for a solid review.

I think for the first 2-4 weeks we won't have any idea who's best, but that just a feeling I have about the new cards/drivers/benchmarks.


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kinney

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I read digit life when their reviews come up for whatever I'm researching in my google searchs.
I like ars technica they seem professional. Anandtech used to be my most trusted source but I'm starting to like [H] more and more.

About the 60hz thing, I realize the XP/2000 limitations but in the NV drivers I can pick say 1024x768 and specify 85hz and it will apply to all opengl and direct3d apps whether I task in or out it returns to 85hz.
In ATIs it goes to 85hz but if you task out and back in it returns to 60hz. Sorry if I didnt explain that fully enough the first time.

As far as the OS issues, I never had any cursor issues and never had to disable hardware cursor but just noticed sluggishness in any kind of fast movement. Sometimes even while using the mouse wheel.

What did you think of the Anandtech review of IQ differences between ATI/NV?
I thought it pretty much said that neither are perfect, and better at some things than others. Thats why I dont fully understand those who say NV has poor IQ. I cant tell the difference personally.
Image Quality Analysis Fall 2003: A Glance Through the Looking Glass[/quote]
I'm not trying to start an argument I just never got the claims that are so popular (other than the hacks done for things like 3dmark03, and I could care less about that).
I'd prefer any IQ loss that I cant actually see to be done!
As the Anand article states, it almost comes down to user perception unless your talking about polygons appears where they dont belong or something similar.
I'm more worried about stability and features.
I have found NV champ for the former and ATI champ for the latter (other than those few driver quirks I noted).

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phial

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how long ago was nV the best manufacturer? about 2 years ago thats all

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From what I read the 60hz issue is being worked on with MS, but that because of all the fake 3.8 Monitor crap, they are not going to go anywhere near that.

As for IQ, I wasn't impressed by Anand's work.

It was subpar for something that was supposed to be a look at IQ. It was about as informative as a regular Digit-life review. I was dissapointed there wasn't 2D normal application comparisons, TV comparisons. I've seen far far better jobs done by people with much fewer resources.

The other thing that was weird at that time was that Anand said there were no nV issues with HALO, but Digit-Life and many others had found the lack of rendered lighting in the walls of the hallways over a week before using the same drivers/hardware. I have given up on Anand being objective because he was given advanaced access to hardware and 'allowed' to publish the results before others (more like releasing PR).

there are only a few FX vs modern Radeon vs Parhelia true IQ tests out there, and I was hoping for a more comprehensive one, and was greatly dissapointed. The only one I've seen with the FX5200 vs GF4mx vs R8500 vs R9000PCI vs Parhelia was done a few months back and I can't find it anymore (I think the link/page has expired). I wanted something else. Most of the tests out there still involv the GF4 series vs the early Radeons versus the G450/550. Oh well, so be it.

As for the cheating etc.

The reason it's an issue is for parity.

To use an example that uses less inflamatory example, with strictly quantifiable info think of it this way;

XGI is able to get 30FPS in a benchmark/game with 75% image quality (compared to the reference raster.)
Matrox on the other hand is able to Achieve 29FPS with 99.44% IQ.

Now this means that XGI gets a slight advanatage in FPS, but the image sucks.

Now there are hacked Matrox drivers, or you can adjust the sliders to bring the IQ down to 75%.

Now;
XGI remain at 30fps for 75% IQ
but
Matrox is now 37fps for 75% IQ.

The difference is that the game creators want it to look one way and company B (Matrox in this case) isn't willing to compromise their quality (which many people are looking for) simply for benchmarking purposes or FPS. Now if it's sliders, like in the Various Control Panels, and company B can set the sliders to Low to equal company A's IQ with sliders on High then that would be acceptable, if it were benchmarked that way, but it rarely ever is. And sometimes the sliders don't go low enough to achieve that. Now if it's imperceptable that's a different story, but glaring differences that may be slightly perceptable but not enough to cause outrage should still be included, because hell we're sometimes talking about score differences of 325 fps versus 320fps, but we feel there is a 'winner', even though the difference is not perceptable to just about everyone (not going to go into a FPS debate with people either). Most of the time these benchmarks are average numbers so it does represent a difference, and by the same token since these benchies are translated and used as predictors (which I've always advocated against) then it becomes a question of running the tests with 'all things being equal', Ceteris Parabus.

There are always things you can do to increase FPS, but to get an apples to apples comparison as to which card has more power you need an equal platform.
Perception is a difficult thing, some people won't notice the difference between 1024x768 and 1280x1024 given a few momnents of playing, but many people do. So it's funny that Anand said that considering that he does bench under didfferent resoltuions. It really comes down to the same sort of thing.

Stability and features is also a perception thing. I find now that ATI has far more features than ATI, and the stability for me is enough (and would've been better if I had kept my system [and it's other drivers/bios] as up to date as I keep my video drivers).
But once again it depends on what people find works for them. 99.44% of the 'issues' that I've come across with ATI users don't apply to me in any way, so I may be the exception, but to ME it's different. Yet, the minute I see a GF4 screen I can tell, even without knowing the card, and unfortunately the same is true to some extent with ATI vs Matrox cards. But that's MY personal focus. I'm a visual and aural aficionado so it matters alot to me.
For me the thing that irked me the most was the 'lying' about it and the fact that they took the choices away from users. If I were an owner of product X (which I may be in the future depending on their offerings) and when I bought my product, I knew it's performance wasn't as good as product Y, but I accepted that fact because I prefered the way they did ¥ and then they go an change the drivers so that it doesn't do it that way anymore, and theres no option to turn off this change which was primarily done to increase benchmark scores at the cost of IQ or whatever. I want more options not less, and the activities in the summer were a combination of so many things I didn't like that it has turned me off purchasing from a certain company unless no one else offers a competitive solution, in which case, it will be ancient history, but it will be a niggling issue in the back of my mind even once I have their product. I would always be thinking, I hope they don't do something else that affects my enjoyment.

That's just a personal view on it, but I think IQ is very important when doing a comparison, and if you look at that XGI review from Xbit, I think you'd agree. The question is at what point is it 'acceptable' degredation. For a benchmark I think it's never acceptable. For game play, I'm sure the XGI owners would prefer 50fps at 50% IQ, than the 10fps they get at 97% IQ (while ATI and nV both get 60fps at 99.44% IQ). It really depends on what matters most to you, but for a benchmark, which should be devoid of personal preference, all things should be equal to produce a valid result IMO.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 

hogfather

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Dec 9, 2003
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I have an MX440, its nothing special, but it runs GP4, UT2003 and all other games I have played great. I know its limitations, dx 7, 64 bit blah blah, but it really des the job well, and I certainly am not looking to upgrade that first. I certainly wouldnt buy less than an 9600XT if I was to. Lay off the mx440, it does exactly what it says on the tin :)

XP2000, 256ddr 2100ram, GF4 MX440, XP Pro