Great Article on Water Cooling - But what about th

upgradez

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I though the article on water cooling was great although it is not a complete solution. I'd like to see are the inclusion of a watercooled power supply eliminating the need for a power supply fan. The elimination of the fan for the radiator would be nice as well. Rplace the rad with a waterblock and a Pelt. with passive coolers on them like the Silverado. $$$ but quiet !
 

Garasaki

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I thought it was a terrible article. In the beginning they mention PSU coolers, but never follow thru with them. And since when does Toms have Innovatek stock?? That article was a complete advertisement for the Innovatek kit, and never mentioned that fact that you can build all that stuff yourself. They refer to the 200 dollar price tag as "pocket change" and refer to the kit as "something they built themselves" and "the perfect cooling solution". Far from it. Many people are claiming corruption at THG, especially since they awarded the buggy Gigabyte board their top performer in the last mobo roundup....now its becoming obvious in all their articles! This is certainly no longer the place for unbaised opinions...
 

bum_jcrules

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I like how they mounted the cooler and the fan on the case. However that YS fan is not the best. Also, what if you got some sheet metal and cut another hole in the side of the case and diverted the heated air leaving the water cooler back outside the case? Why would you want that latent energy to build up inside the case? They could do something similar with the PSU.

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol:
 

cakecake

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I don't think the article was trying to advertise Innovatek or even water cooling. I think it was trying to "advertise" a real, no-nonsense approach that proclaimed, "hey you can do it too." Which I think is great. In the beginning they stated their message. Today's PC's suck: make sure yours stands out!

However, on a different level, it's important to note that water cooling is not the only approach to a silent system. The cost is a lot more for a water cooled system than it is for a standard HSF combo. HSF's are $20-$40 with the odd penguin, the Silverado, at $60-$70 being the most expensive. Contrast this with the cheapest water cooling kit for $100, and even more if you decide to build it yourself.

That said, I would have preferred they give a solution that required no tools at all. I think the moment they showed their electric screwdriver screwing up the back of the case a lot of people probably said, "ok I can't do that." Because if they really wanted to reach the mainstream then they would've realized that the mainstream user typically has no tools other than his hands.

Here's what I think the "average" user would buy:

1. A water cooling kit with a radiator that has an external mount that is toolless. The radiator fan will have an amazing sound/CFM ratio above all else and will come with a potentiometer and RPM monitor with alarm.
2. The kit will have only two water blocks: GPU and CPU (the two noisiest fans, after all), and come with extensive documentation and troubleshooting solutions.
3. The kit will come pre-packaged with Arctic Silver III.

I know that this kind of setup wouldn't benefit the extreme overclocker, considering especially that the fan I am suggesting for the radiator isn't going to be particularly powerful. But I believe that if this is the market segment a manufacturer really wants to tap--the many people who build their own PCs, never overclock, and want a silent system--then there isn't a single kit out there that exists for them and THG's video isn't going to help much.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
 

CharlesHF

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I'm with garasaki; I think this article was horrible. It was a complete advertisement for Innovatek. I especially disliked Tom's review of the 4 watercooling kits from some while ago, pitting Innovaket against Swiftech. I'm suprised that the Swiftech did as well as it did, especially <b>without</b> a fan on the radiator. That says something about the Swiftech.
Actually, watercooling kits are getting cheaper and cheaper all the time. And, if you REALLY want to go cheap, build your own. It's so much easier than buying some entire kit, and it usually cools more effectively, also.

If you want to see PSU cooling, go <A HREF="http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/content.asp?request=liquidenermax550w&page=1" target="_new">here.</A>

And, that kit requires no tools. (except perhaps a screwdriver to attach the fan to the radiator) If you notice, all the connections are quick-connects; they don't require a hose clamp. I don't know why they decided to attach the radiator to the TOP of the case. Heat rises, if they forgot. Most watercooling that's done with radiator systems has the radiator/fan combo sitting down on the bottom of the case. Some people have 2 fans, in a push-pull configuration. Either way, just make sure that it stays in the bottom of the case. You'll get better cooling, and you don't have to buy as much tubing. (if you want to pay more for tubing, go ahead!)

To upgradez: you can't take the fan off the radiator, the water will get hot, and cooling will become ineffective. You can't replace the radiator with a waterblock and a pelt, either. You have to have something to cool the pelt effectively on the other side, and a heatsink just doesn't cut it. Why? Because the heat coming off of a pelt is a combination of the wattage of a pelt PLUS whatever heat is coming into it. So, if pelt is a 76watt pelt, and the heat load from the water is around 100 watts (CPU heat plus GPU heat), then that heatsink has 176watts to cool. That's impossible for a heatsink, especially without a fan on it.

To cakecake: I built my watercooling kit for less than $100USD.
Maze2: $42.
5 gallon bucket: $3.
10 feet of 1/2" tubing: $2.
3 feet of 4" diameter PVC pipe: free (found in garage)
showerhead: $13
200gph pump: $35

Of course, my system doesn't have a radiator. :) (it's special)

AND, you can go much cheaper than my system. BeCooling has a $15 waterblock/holddown. (yes, both for $15) And, they have lots of pumps for cheap. Like, $20 for a Via Aqua1300. That eliminates a huge portion of the cost.
If you want REAL cooling, better than that Innovatek, get a heatercore from a car. You can get them cheap at Advanced Auto Parts for around $20. Or, you can get one already done (with the hose barbs) at DangerDen for $35. They also have much less flow restriction than a normal watercooling radiator.

To Bum UCRules: if you look closely in the video, they have the YS Tech fan pulling air across the radiator out the back of the case. And, all PSU's have the hot air blowing outside the case.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
 

cakecake

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Sounds nice, but I'm still doubtful as to whether water cooling is as easy and effective as Tom's was trying to portray it and as everyone says it is. Even though you can build a water cooling system for under $100 (and there's a bit of a water cooling devil in me as I say this) it's still more expensive than a HSF cooler.

Today's computer market is all about speed and price. And here's the dilemma I'm pointing out: People are advocating water cooling and saying that it's easy and affordable, but when the average person tries it he will most likely become discouraged because it is in fact not easy (maybe to someone who knows their way around things) and is not inexpensive. It's impossible to substantiate the word "easy" here but try to play dumb with me. Some people, mostly utilitarians, will say "no way" to water cooling once they see all of those parts that they have to cut and assemble and the different shops they have to drive to.

Tom's article and especially the music in their movie really give off this air of "oh you can do it too" or my favorite, "your cake and eat it too." What I'm commenting on is also the preponderance of the overclocking community that it's incredibly painless to do and money is not an issue.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
 

gregorarch

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I agree - Joe Sixpack isn't going to get into watercooling until it's supplied in the case by CompUSA. Remember, these guys call a plumber to fix a dripping tap (or faucet, if you prefer).

I also have a number of reservations about that article (haven't watched the vid) - the discussion of water vs water + antifreeze / water wetter was pitiful. Plus, we keep being assured that these specific components are "the best available" - now I haven't actually built a watercooler yet, but I've done enough research to know that Your Mileage May Vary. And the rad (looks like a Be AquaCoil) "will fit in any PC case", will it? Bull - I'd like to see you fit it in the midi tower of my domain contoller. Don't buy a rad without measuring - twice!

Having not watched the vid, I'm curious about some missing details - like how did they connect those 4 blocks to one resevoir / rad, with only one pump? If they're running the blocks in parellel, I don't much fancy their chances of getting a balanced flow. If they're in series, how big is the pressure drop? Yeah, I know I should watch the vid, but hey, I'm at work...

Oh, and does anyone *really* watercool their harddrives? Seriously?
 

bum_jcrules

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I did not look at the video...I am at work and using a 56K modem. Interesting. So they are using warmer case air to cool the water running through the radiator. In a case that large I would still take air from the outside. Same for the PSU, I know that PSU's draw air from inside the case and then out, but I would still would rather draw the air from the outside and send it back out again ASAP. Cooler air to cool the parts and no air remaining in the case to drive up the temps.

Water cooling the PSU is one major project. (Public Service Announcment: Do not attempt this at home.) Nice link. Bladerunner is a really good waterblock maker. He has shown up here before. (I think it was the heatpipe discussion.)

Have you ever thought of using a plastic gasoline can instead of a bucket? You could probably make it more leak-resistant and not worry about particles landing in your bucket.

Thanks for the info...

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol:
 

CharlesHF

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Well, I need to remember that a kit like this is good for the average person, not for the overclocking enthusiast. You're right, most people won't do it unless it's built into the case. If you want one that's built into the case and is quiet, go <A HREF="http://www.swiftnets.com" target="_new">here.</A> Click on the case that comes up in the first pic. That's the swiftec Q-Power case. (stands for quiet-power) If you want reviews, here are 2.
<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/articles542/" target="_new">One.</A>
<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/articles550/" target="_new">Two.</A>

One thing that I noticed in the video was that they didn't bleed the system, and there were bubbles everywhere, most likely getting stuck inside the waterblocks.


Oh, and no, I've never thought about putting it inside of a gasoline can, and here's why. My bong won't fit inside of it. (not pot bong; my computer watercooling bong) And, the 5 gallon bucket that I use is very sturdy, I've been using it for a while now. I don't really need to worry about crap getting in the water, because I have one of those little filters in the showerhead, and it catches whatever's in the water.
Speaking of that, when I first set it up, I was very eager to get it working, so I used tap water for around 4 days. (before I went to distilled) I'd have to clean out filter in the showerhead once a day, because it kept getting clogged. With the distilled, it's a rarity when I have to clean it it, and even when I do, it's always less than when I was using tap water.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by CharlesHF on 07/02/02 11:38 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

bum_jcrules

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Good links.

What kind of climate do you live in? How does your bong work for you where you live? How often do you have to fill the system with water? Do you have any pictures with links to them?

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol:
 

tas

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"Radiator: High Efficiency via Counter Current Flow"

That is NOT a counter current heat exchanger.

Tom.
 

CompIliterate

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Is there another tech forum that knows what they are talking about and doesn't do advertisments? I'm diappointed with some articles that this forum wrote. The only reliable articles in this forum are the ones that people reply in the "Community" link, trying to help another comrad.

God Bless America! PEACE!
 

CharlesHF

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YES, there IS a place like this! :smile:
It's <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com" target="_new">Overclocker.com</A>
Just go in, read some of the articles, and I'm sure that most of what you need can be found in the forums by searching for it. (we have a great search feature! :) )
Hope to see you there. Oh, and one more thing. Our forums are FAST! About 10x faster than these. And ours look better, too.
On the front page of the website, every day, Ed writes some kind of article/essay on something, and he's not biased. And, he tells it the way it is. Occasionally, you'll see an article that was submitted by someone like you and me, and occasionally you'll see comparisons/articles/reviews by another guy named Joe, who also works the website. All of these are great guys, and they put out great stuff.

In reply to Bum JCRules--<A HREF="http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91600&perpage=30&pagenumber=2" target="_new">here</A>are 2 pics of my system. I'll try and search the forums to find a few more. (kind of hard with 700 posts....lol) I live in New Bern, NC. It's usually very humid outside, but if your house (or wherever the bong is) is air conditioned, it's not a problem. It works great for me, but I don't have a fan on it yet, so it's hotter than I'd like. But, it stills fine. Since I don't have a fan, it takes a little longer to evaporate the water, I usually splash some in every other day or so into my 5 gallon bucket.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
 

bum_jcrules

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How fast does the water come through the showerhead? Those pictures don't show much. Well the Maze2 looks like, well, like a Maze2 on a Soyo motherboard. Also, do you restrict the waterflow through the showerhead? Does the water from the showerhead just fall down your PVC vertical pipe to the bottom? Couldn't add something to help the evorative proprties of the bong? I saw one on OCer's where they used brillo pads to hold some of the water to evaporate. I don't know how well that would work in your system but something else might work. Do you use a coil inside your bong? ...or just a few ends or a straight pipe? I have never seen someone use a bong here where I live. (Buffalo NY) It only gets hot during the summer. Other than that air cooling is fine. Most of the sytems are air cooled.

<b>"Sometimes you can't hear me because I'm talking in parenthesis" - Steven Wright</b> :lol:
 

dip

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The water cooling article was interesting but appears a bit incomplete. What about a discussion of the water pathway?
I mean: it looks as if the water is going serial, which
does not seem as an optimal solution as it is heated up for each step. Wouldn't a parallel pathway be better? But how does one make the "beam splitter" for this? I have seen T and Y fittings for dual CPU / GPU cooling, but one in and
four out? - not.

Dip
 

Hoolio

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I personally would not buy a water cooling system atm. I will not buy a system that involves drilling my case. However this is what I would like to see:

1. A radiator that includes a fan that fits in one or two 5 1/4 inch bays. This means the radiatior could vent through a grate at the front.
2. Preferably a Pump with integrated resovoir that also mounts in a 5 1/4 bay. You could also power it from a 12 volt supply. If that did not provide enough current then two leads linked together would do it. Or you could integrate the pump into a power supply. Therefore the pump could be powered well and then the power supply could be water cooled.
I suppose a bracket could be included that fits in a slot at the back of the case with water inlts and outlets, with a power pass through for a pump inside the case.

I feel the water cooling things are at an infant stage and these kits may have been put together in a hurry with no regard for ease of installation.

I would just like to add something about the bleeding of the system: The system was not bled in the video because of the header tank, air is allowed to leave the water here.

Sorry about the long post but I have alot to get across.
BTW the overclockers forum is cool, someone overclocked a T-Bred using a pencil I believe...although I am not sure if it is entirely correct because I got confused it is quite a long article.
 

spets

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what do you guys think of the koolance? for 200 bucks, a complete system. and its not even as much as mentioned!!

did you notice that one of the authors was german...hence the germanish view.. (innovantek)

Waiting...Watching
 

Hoolio

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Check the archive they may have reviewed it, but yeah where is the koolance webbie also the innovtek(??) webbie is all in german, they could be considerate and translate it into english and french at least so more people can understand it
 

spets

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they did review the koolance, but I don't think they did a direct comparision of the two.

www.koolance.com

Waiting...Watching
 

CharlesHF

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I would actually recommend a Swiftech Q-Power case. A little more expensive, but it'll stay cooler.

I could add something to help with the evaporation, but I'm content with my high temps for right now ($$$ is an issue!) and it's also not that loud. I don't restrict water--in fact, I took the flow restricter out of the showerhead. It falls vertically down.

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
 

Jango

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I find nothing to support all the naysayers about the review or the quality of the product. I have over the last four days, sence seeing the article, done a lot of research on what is available from other companies and am convinced that the Innovatek system is of the highest quality components and that the price is better than any other system. Although I am one of the guys that most of you guys would consider a noob, I know quality when I see it.

The components that make up the SwiftTech look like stuff I used on my 55 gallon saltwater aquarium. The radiator, and I don't know anything about heat transfer and all tht jazz, looks puny compared to the Innovatech.

The Koolance system's components look of a lesser quality and the fans on top of the case make a lot of noise.

Face it, doods, this is a system that works and works well.

Tom's reviewer was just excited, like I am, that you can now get a very high quality water cooled system for not a whole lot more than an air cooled one considering the expense of a bunch of fans.

Here is the system I am building and the components. I will be using an air cooled bay fan HDD cooler. I ordered a Panaflow 8cm fan for the front of the case. I will swap the PS for my Enermax 350 that is currently in my wife's computer. That will be the extent of the cooling for the case. We'll see how that works and I'll report back here with the results in about a week or so. My system will not be initially overclocked. I gotta learn how to do it later. Now this insn't what you guys would call a powerful system by any means but when I get to jammin on SOF online my video card is smokin! I have a system I built that is so hot that I have it laying on it's side with a 15" room rotating fan lying face down blowing into the case to keep that bad boy cool.

Abit KT7A
Athlon 1.4gh
60gb IBM Deskstar 100ATA
GeForce 3 TI 200


The case:
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/honhai7a09001.html

The case review, the only one I could find on Google:
http://www.geocities.com/ubergeek00/comp/7a090-01.htm

The HDD cooler, might add the water HDD cooler later:
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/khd301.html
 

CharlesHF

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Personally, I'd rather have the Swiftech, considering that it comes with a case. :smile:

Soyo Dragon+ Motherboard
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ AGKGA-Y
H20 Bong Cooled
256MB DDR RAM
 

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