Hardware upgrading dilema.....

kyle

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Hello all,

Long time no post or read for me, so I'm trying to catch up on all the
latest and greatest q's in NG land.

Here's something that came up today. The Pinnacle Pro-One Cards we've
been using for 2.5 years now are becoming dated (along with our
computers ~2GHz) and we're looking to upgrade to something else after
the summer rush.

The main problem we have is, we love the program "Multi-Cam" because
we do a lot of mutli-camera work on dance recitals, graduations, and
weddings.

Are there any NLE's out there that have something like this built in
already?.. where you can edit/switch between 4 (or more) cameras in
post in real time?

We thought about switching to the Canopus Storm... but we'd have to
buy 3 more copies of Multi-Cam at $500 a pop (not to mention the $1400
x 3 for the Canopus hardware).

I guess we're just looking for a cost effective solution, and if Avid
or something has this capaibility all rolled into one package, we're
thinking that's the way to go.

Your thoughts and comments?

Kyle
www.lookmom.net
 
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the DPS/Leitch Velocity does multicams like a demon





"Kyle" <me@virtualkyle.com> wrote in message
news:fea50fdd.0405111620.4bf79e98@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> Long time no post or read for me, so I'm trying to catch up on all the
> latest and greatest q's in NG land.
>
> Here's something that came up today. The Pinnacle Pro-One Cards we've
> been using for 2.5 years now are becoming dated (along with our
> computers ~2GHz) and we're looking to upgrade to something else after
> the summer rush.
>
> The main problem we have is, we love the program "Multi-Cam" because
> we do a lot of mutli-camera work on dance recitals, graduations, and
> weddings.
>
> Are there any NLE's out there that have something like this built in
> already?.. where you can edit/switch between 4 (or more) cameras in
> post in real time?
>
> We thought about switching to the Canopus Storm... but we'd have to
> buy 3 more copies of Multi-Cam at $500 a pop (not to mention the $1400
> x 3 for the Canopus hardware).
>
> I guess we're just looking for a cost effective solution, and if Avid
> or something has this capaibility all rolled into one package, we're
> thinking that's the way to go.
>
> Your thoughts and comments?
>
> Kyle
> www.lookmom.net
 
G

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Jack Perry wrote:
> the DPS/Leitch Velocity does multicams like a demon


For a whole lot less money, get Vegas. Then buy a plug-in called Excalibur
(comes with "Multi-Cam Wizard") and you're all set.
More info and a free trial at
http://www.vegastoolsandtraining.com/#excalibur

Mike


> "Kyle" <me@virtualkyle.com> wrote in message
> news:fea50fdd.0405111620.4bf79e98@posting.google.com...
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Long time no post or read for me, so I'm trying to catch up on all
>> the latest and greatest q's in NG land.
>>
>> Here's something that came up today. The Pinnacle Pro-One Cards we've
>> been using for 2.5 years now are becoming dated (along with our
>> computers ~2GHz) and we're looking to upgrade to something else after
>> the summer rush.
>>
>> The main problem we have is, we love the program "Multi-Cam" because
>> we do a lot of mutli-camera work on dance recitals, graduations, and
>> weddings.
>>
>> Are there any NLE's out there that have something like this built in
>> already?.. where you can edit/switch between 4 (or more) cameras in
>> post in real time?
>>
>> We thought about switching to the Canopus Storm... but we'd have to
>> buy 3 more copies of Multi-Cam at $500 a pop (not to mention the
>> $1400 x 3 for the Canopus hardware).
>>
>> I guess we're just looking for a cost effective solution, and if Avid
>> or something has this capaibility all rolled into one package, we're
>> thinking that's the way to go.
>>
>> Your thoughts and comments?
>>
>> Kyle
>> www.lookmom.net
 
G

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On Tue, 11 May 2004 22:51:06 -0400, "Mike Kujbida"
<kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Jack Perry wrote:
>> the DPS/Leitch Velocity does multicams like a demon
>
>
>For a whole lot less money, get Vegas. Then buy a plug-in called Excalibur
>(comes with "Multi-Cam Wizard") and you're all set.
>More info and a free trial at
>http://www.vegastoolsandtraining.com/#excalibur
>
>Mike

Excalibur is worth every penny...
There is a nice video at the web site that previews all the tools...
You get a lot for the money...and it sure makes things fast and easy..
This is a well thought out tool...
Glenn M



A GREAT DAY FOR FREEDOM...Pink Floyd
 

kyle

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The whole thing behind the live switching idea was to get away from
having to capture video.... We're going to try this Laird CapDV 3.3
hour Direct to disc system tomorrow at a dance recital.

We got 1 from BH (UPS should be dropping it off any minute now) and if
it works, we'll get 2 more to supplement it.

To me, the worst part about doing multi-camera event videography is
the capture time.... especially when you have 3 cameras, doing 3
performances, that lasts about 3 hours EACH. That's a total of 27
hours of just capture time!

Kyle
www.lookmom.net
 

cory

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> The whole thing behind the live switching idea was to get away from
> having to capture video.... We're going to try this Laird CapDV 3.3
> hour Direct to disc system tomorrow at a dance recital.

Be sure to let us know how that goes. It sounds very interesting!
//cory
 

kyle

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Ok, we used the Laird unit in the two shows today, but I haven't
looked at it just yet, because we learned something else new today at
the recital. You can record direct to hard drive through Adobe
Preimere:

GL1 --> 1394 --> Laptop --> USB2.0 --> External 80 GB HD.
and
GL1 --> 1394 --> Desktop HD

which is what we did tonight (on 2 cams, we had another one using the
Laird). I'm transferring the files from the setups above to a
removeable HD first.

The show actually lasted a little over 3 hours (a lot of dancing..300
performers), so the files from one cam are around 20GB each (first and
second halves respectively). We shot with 4 cameras, and plan to use 3
(With the 4th as a backup) so, we'll need 120 GB of space....

Good thing HD's keep getting bigger and cheaper!

I'll post about how the Laird CapDV thing worked tomorrow. It seemed
to record, now it's just a matter of getting the footage into my
editing computer here.

We did have some problems with 'test runs' that we made early on in
the afternoon. It would just stop mid-transfer and say it was
disconnected or some such nonsense. That was occuring when we would
try and transfer 4 files at a time. When we transferred one file at a
time, everything worked ok. Weird.

At this point, we are REALLY happy with the performance of our
computer setup and this live capturing discovery. It's almost worth it
to spend $800 for some new desktops (as opposed to more on a similar
laptop config), instead of going with the capDIV route for long shows
like this.

The capDIV is nice if you are doing projects like highlight videos,
which we are doing for our local arena football team, because the unit
automatically makes a new avi file each time you start and stop the
camera. This would really make it easy to weed out the worthless
footage, and save a ton of time in post.

Anyways, more to come.

Kyle



"Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message news:<vXKrc.1949$_o.1775@fed1read05>...
>
> Be sure to let us know how that goes. It sounds very interesting!
> //cory
 

kyle

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The Laird unit worked very well.

Since it is a FAT32 formatted drive, there are 20 2-GB files that
transferred fine from it to my desktop (at 2:00 AM this morning).

It took about 30 minutes to transfer 3 hours of video. Now, THAT is
impressive.

I put them back to back in Premiere, and there are no gaps or obvious
sync issues. I guess this is like that thing Canopus used back in the
day on their DV raptor to get around the 2GB limit on older computer
systems.

I got up at 6:00 AM to work on this stuff, and I found out the hard
drive that I had captured the 3 hours direct through Premiere on, had
crashed at some point in the night and I lost the 42GB of video data
from that live feed. That was a huge disappointment. That's the first
time I've ever had a hard drive crash on me in all my years... bummer.
 
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On 21 May 2004 15:05:57 -0700, me@virtualkyle.com (Kyle) wrote:

>To me, the worst part about doing multi-camera event videography is
>the capture time.... especially when you have 3 cameras, doing 3
>performances, that lasts about 3 hours EACH. That's a total of 27
>hours of just capture time!

Especially when it's a dance recital. I hope you're getting paid LOTS.
If not, can't you tell them your gear has been stolen? :)

Don't forget to index it thoroughly so everyone can jump immediately
to "the bit my kid's in" which is the only bit they'll ever want to
watch :)
 

kyle

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> On 21 May 2004 15:05:57 -0700, me@virtualkyle.com (Kyle) wrote:
>
> Especially when it's a dance recital. I hope you're getting paid LOTS.

Hey, so do we. :)

Actually, last year was the first time we had ever done one, and we
ended up grossing around $4,000 for one recital. We don't charge to
come in and do it. We just go based on sales. ($35 DVD & $45 VHS)

We're filming recitals for 3 different dance studios this year, each
with between 250-300 students performing. So we figure a good
percentage will buy. Especially since the theater has a policy against
people bringing in their own camcorders, coupled with that fact that
everyone was pleased with what we did last year.


> If not, can't you tell them your gear has been stolen? :)
> Don't forget to index it thoroughly so everyone can jump immediately
> to "the bit my kid's in" which is the only bit they'll ever want to
> watch :)

Yeah, chapter points at the end of each show number. ^_^

Kyle
 

cory

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> Actually, last year was the first time we had ever done one, and we
> ended up grossing around $4,000 for one recital. We don't charge to
> come in and do it. We just go based on sales. ($35 DVD & $45 VHS)

How long are those recitals? I (we-me and 2 of my good friends
www.soundlightproductions.net) do a quite a bit of musicals and such, and we
charge $20 or $25 per DVD, depending on the agreement with the client, but I
set a $500 minimum. People are willing to pay $35?

//cory
 

cory

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> I got up at 6:00 AM to work on this stuff, and I found out the hard
> drive that I had captured the 3 hours direct through Premiere on, had
> crashed at some point in the night and I lost the 42GB of video data
> from that live feed. That was a huge disappointment. That's the first
> time I've ever had a hard drive crash on me in all my years... bummer.

That's so sad. I hate it when that happens. :( Well, I hear all this stuff
about my Canopus card being able to capture 3 streams of DV at the same
time. Would that maybe work too? That would be a time saver for me.

//cory
 

Someone

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"Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message
news:kHfsc.4165$_o.3945@fed1read05...
> > I got up at 6:00 AM to work on this stuff, and I found out the hard
> > drive that I had captured the 3 hours direct through Premiere on, had
> > crashed at some point in the night and I lost the 42GB of video data
> > from that live feed. That was a huge disappointment. That's the first
> > time I've ever had a hard drive crash on me in all my years... bummer.
>
> That's so sad. I hate it when that happens. :( Well, I hear all this stuff
> about my Canopus card being able to capture 3 streams of DV at the same
> time. Would that maybe work too? That would be a time saver for me.

Not capture, play 3 streams.
 

kyle

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"Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message news:<Kofsc.4162$_o.1371@fed1read05>...
>
> How long are those recitals?
>

3 hours.


>I (we-me and 2 of my good friends
> www.soundlightproductions.net) do a quite a bit of musicals and such, and we
> charge $20 or $25 per DVD, depending on the agreement with the client, but I
> set a $500 minimum. People are willing to pay $35?

last year we charged $30 and $45 (DVD/VHS) and didn't have any
problems making sales.

kyle
 

kyle

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"someone" <mike@xyz.com> wrote in message news:<c8u54f02tb5@enews2.newsguy.com>...
> "Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message
> news:kHfsc.4165$_o.3945@fed1read05...
> > > I got up at 6:00 AM to work on this stuff, and I found out the hard
> > > drive that I had captured the 3 hours direct through Premiere on, had
> > > crashed at some point in the night and I lost the 42GB of video data
> > > from that live feed. That was a huge disappointment. That's the first
> > > time I've ever had a hard drive crash on me in all my years... bummer.
> >
> > That's so sad. I hate it when that happens. :( Well, I hear all this stuff
> > about my Canopus card being able to capture 3 streams of DV at the same
> > time. Would that maybe work too? That would be a time saver for me.
>
> Not capture, play 3 streams.

I thought I read at one time, that the Storm DID allow the capture of
3 DV streams, and that it had 2 1394 ports built in, but you had to
buy an additional port to get all three.

I always took it to mean that it would capture from the camera in VCR
mode and not live capture / direct to disk.

If it actually did that.....

Kyle
 

cory

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> > How long are those recitals?
> >
>
> 3 hours.

What kind of media do you use? Does it all fit on 1 DVD?
//cory
 

Someone

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I have the DVRexRT software and it will record directly from the camera. In
fact, the camera start/stop switch starts and stops the recording through
the Rex.

I don't have the Storm so I don't know if it has the same mode. You could
also be correct about the 3 streams of capture but I don't think so. That
would require a great deal of disk bandwidth.


"Kyle" <me@virtualkyle.com> wrote in message
news:fea50fdd.0405250435.647357eb@posting.google.com...
> "someone" <mike@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:<c8u54f02tb5@enews2.newsguy.com>...
> > "Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message
> > news:kHfsc.4165$_o.3945@fed1read05...
> > > > I got up at 6:00 AM to work on this stuff, and I found out the hard
> > > > drive that I had captured the 3 hours direct through Premiere on,
had
> > > > crashed at some point in the night and I lost the 42GB of video data
> > > > from that live feed. That was a huge disappointment. That's the
first
> > > > time I've ever had a hard drive crash on me in all my years...
bummer.
> > >
> > > That's so sad. I hate it when that happens. :( Well, I hear all this
stuff
> > > about my Canopus card being able to capture 3 streams of DV at the
same
> > > time. Would that maybe work too? That would be a time saver for me.
> >
> > Not capture, play 3 streams.
>
> I thought I read at one time, that the Storm DID allow the capture of
> 3 DV streams, and that it had 2 1394 ports built in, but you had to
> buy an additional port to get all three.
>
> I always took it to mean that it would capture from the camera in VCR
> mode and not live capture / direct to disk.
>
> If it actually did that.....
>
> Kyle
 

kyle

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>
> What kind of media do you use? Does it all fit on 1 DVD?


No, it doesn't all fit on 1 DVD. We have to use 2 DVD's.

We sell DVD+R's and have had a high success rate. Out of the last 500
DVD's we've made, I'd say only about 10-15 people came back not being
able to play the +R format.

When those don't work, we go to +RW or -R, in that order.
 

kyle

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"someone" <mike@xyz.com> wrote in message news:<c8vvnu02ofa@enews3.newsguy.com>...
> I have the DVRexRT software and it will record directly from the camera. In
> fact, the camera start/stop switch starts and stops the recording through
> the Rex.
>
> I don't have the Storm so I don't know if it has the same mode. You could
> also be correct about the 3 streams of capture but I don't think so. That
> would require a great deal of disk bandwidth.

I was just about 100% sure that I had read the Canopus DV Storm will
allow simultaneous capture from three 1EEE1394 sources, so I did some
research at Global-DVC.org and found some posts which indicate that,
indeed, the DV Storm 2 upgrade allows 3 stream capturing.

I know Canopus used to tout this on their product spec details, but
they don't anymore. It was also discussed quite abit in their user
forums, but it appears the user forums on the Canopus website have
been completely re-done, with no archiving of anything from a couple
years ago... which is when the Storm came out.

Anyways, the question of whether or not it can do real-time capturing
is still unanswered.

Kyle
 

cory

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> I know Canopus used to tout this on their product spec details, but
> they don't anymore. It was also discussed quite abit in their user
> forums, but it appears the user forums on the Canopus website have
> been completely re-done, with no archiving of anything from a couple
> years ago... which is when the Storm came out.
>
> Anyways, the question of whether or not it can do real-time capturing
> is still unanswered.

Well I just came up with this brilliant idea of LOOKING IN THE MANUAL lol.
So here's how it looks:
You can capture 3 streams within Storm's Edit program which comes with the
card. There is an option to "Batch Capture" and within that window, you can
capture 3 streams (it shows 3 in the example but doesn't note a limit) and
specify where you want them saved, so you can have them all recording to
different hard drives, which would make sense so you don't exceed the limit
that your HD can write. BUT how it looks is that you can only capture from
ports that are on your Canopus card. So therefore, I can capture 1 DV stream
through my 1 DV port on my card and I can also capture 2 A/V streams. (Kind
of makes sense because, in order to save the AVI files with the Canopus
codec, it's gotta run through the card?) Maybe that's why this little
feature didn't take off? I think I'll call tech support later today and see
what they say about this feature and if there's any possible way to capture
3 DV streams. Then, I would be in heaven.
So the verdict is: it looks like you can capture 3 streams but you're
limited to the Canopus ports only.
//cory
P.S. This is also the manual for the Rex Edit card and shows that it has 2
A/V inputs AND 2 DV inputs. That makes a little bit more sense.
 

cory

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> I know Canopus used to tout this on their product spec details, but
> they don't anymore. It was also discussed quite abit in their user
> forums, but it appears the user forums on the Canopus website have
> been completely re-done, with no archiving of anything from a couple
> years ago... which is when the Storm came out.
>
> Anyways, the question of whether or not it can do real-time capturing
> is still unanswered.

Well I just came up with this brilliant idea of LOOKING IN THE MANUAL lol.
So here's how it looks:
You can capture 3 streams within Storm's Edit program which comes with the
card. There is an option to "Batch Capture" and within that window, you can
capture 3 streams (it shows 3 in the example but doesn't note a limit) and
specify where you want them saved, so you can have them all recording to
different hard drives, which would make sense so you don't exceed the limit
that your HD can write. BUT how it looks is that you can only capture from
ports that are on your Canopus card. So therefore, I can capture 1 DV stream
through my 1 DV port on my card and I can also capture 2 A/V streams. (Kind
of makes sense because, in order to save the AVI files with the Canopus
codec, it's gotta run through the card?) Maybe that's why this little
feature didn't take off? I think I'll call tech support later today and see
what they say about this feature and if there's any possible way to capture
3 DV streams. Then, I would be in heaven.
So the verdict is: it looks like you can capture 3 streams but you're
limited to the Canopus ports only.
//cory
P.S. This is also the manual for the Rex Edit card and shows that it has 2
A/V inputs AND 2 DV inputs. That makes a little bit more sense.
 

cory

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> No, it doesn't all fit on 1 DVD. We have to use 2 DVD's.

Hey, when are those consumer dual-layer dvds supposed to be available?
//cory
 

kyle

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"Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message news:<Pfttc.10052$_o.304@fed1read05>...
> > No, it doesn't all fit on 1 DVD. We have to use 2 DVD's.
>
> Hey, when are those consumer dual-layer dvds supposed to be available?
> //cory


I have no idea.

I got your email, but my response bounced back. You can go to
www.lookmom.net/story.html to learn how we got started.

We're all in our late 20's, and do this on the side. We all have
full-time day jobs which helped finance this part-time fiasco. I'm an
systems engineer with a bachelor's (mechanical) and master's degree
(management), Shane is a civil engineer and is in law school at the
moment, and Tag is a CAD/manager-type guy with a family.

Kyle
 

cory

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Thanks for the link! I don't know how I missed it before! My e-mail is back
up. So frusterating when hosts switch servers and "forget to type something
in." :p
//cory
Soundlight Productions
www.soundlightproductions.net

"Kyle" <me@virtualkyle.com> wrote in message
news:fea50fdd.0405271924.c01c7ac@posting.google.com...
> "Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message
news:<Pfttc.10052$_o.304@fed1read05>...
> > > No, it doesn't all fit on 1 DVD. We have to use 2 DVD's.
> >
> > Hey, when are those consumer dual-layer dvds supposed to be available?
> > //cory
>
>
> I have no idea.
>
> I got your email, but my response bounced back. You can go to
> www.lookmom.net/story.html to learn how we got started.
>
> We're all in our late 20's, and do this on the side. We all have
> full-time day jobs which helped finance this part-time fiasco. I'm an
> systems engineer with a bachelor's (mechanical) and master's degree
> (management), Shane is a civil engineer and is in law school at the
> moment, and Tag is a CAD/manager-type guy with a family.
>
> Kyle
 

Rick

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"Kyle" <me@virtualkyle.com> wrote in message news:fea50fdd.0405271924.c01c7ac@posting.google.com...
> "Cory" <here@there.com> wrote in message news:<Pfttc.10052$_o.304@fed1read05>...
> > > No, it doesn't all fit on 1 DVD. We have to use 2 DVD's.
> >
> > Hey, when are those consumer dual-layer dvds supposed to be available?
> > //cory
>
>
> I have no idea.
>
> I got your email, but my response bounced back. You can go to
> www.lookmom.net/story.html to learn how we got started.
>
> We're all in our late 20's, and do this on the side. We all have
> full-time day jobs which helped finance this part-time fiasco. I'm an
> systems engineer with a bachelor's (mechanical) and master's degree
> (management), Shane is a civil engineer and is in law school at the
> moment, and Tag is a CAD/manager-type guy with a family.

Kyle, please give Shane some advice, from someone who's been
in the advertising field for close to 20 years. He's definitely on the
wrong side of the camera.

Rick