Haswell Problems vs Skylake problems? which is less a PITA?

[lieutenantfrost]

So I was all set to buy my i5-6600K when I read that due to intel cutting corners skylake chips are showing damage due to the pressure applied by heatsinks. Dh-15 was my air cooler of choice. I read before that that there were various voltage issues with haswell (4th gen) chips as well.

I'd really like some advice on if its better to risk the pressure damage with Skylake i5-6600K or go with a haswell i7-4790k and the voltage problems. I suppose I could water cool the skylake to reduce some risk but both of these problems make me wish I could skip this generation all together.

Thoughts/comments please

 

[Spectre694]

Ya it isn't a mounting pressure (intel hasn't changed that) issue it was an issue with the heatsinks giving too much lateral pressure when moved and AFAIK limited to one cooler manufacturer and rectified by an updated bracket shortly afterwards.

Never heard of any voltage issues on haswell though

 

[Geekwad]

Of those two choices, the i7 will have more staying power even though the Skylake is the new platform. Skylake has some nice upgrades, but it will still take until the 200-series boards out to be compatible with the next-gen memory (Xpoint), and DDR4 isn't enough of an advantage over DDR3 to even really consider.....in my opinion.

USB 3.1 is nice, and the faster DMI connection is great too.....but still think the 4790k is a fantastic chip on a good platform that will last every bit as long as Skylake (with more threads to enjoy in the meantime).

 

[synphul]

As far as I know the skylake substrate issues were from a report of a reviewer who used a power driver rather than hand tightening the heatsink. Many have used skylake now without bending issues, including those with large coolers. Care when moving a system with a large air cooler has always been recommended. Otherwise thousands of users have no issue with large air coolers including myself. If you look at the large number of sites covering the 'bending' issue, pay close attention and you'll quickly notice that even though there are numerous sites that broke the story they all link back to the same exact article. More of a copy/paste news frenzy. In reality there seemed to be one original report of it in a review in which the reviewers admitted they may have been at fault.

I'm also not aware of haswell voltage issues. Anyone might have isolated specific problems regarding their motherboard, their particular settings and so on but not voltage issues in general. I think someone's been giving you a lot of misinformation or perhaps you came across one or two isolated incidents which don't represent the majority.

According to pcpartpicker, 86 users gave the 6600k 4.8/5.0 rating, 517 users gave the 4790k 4.9/5.0 rating. On newegg, the 6600k has already been given the customer choice award and 156 users have given it 5/5 eggs, the 4790k on newegg is also a customer choice award winner with 982 5/5 eggs. Both are top end for the i5's and i7's, similar to the 4690k and 6700k.

Granted user ratings aren't everything but I would think if there were all these 'issues' there would be unhappy people voicing concern rather than some of the best ratings given to hardware. It doesn't really get less 'pita' than that. My thoughts are there are a lot of misguided perceptions without much personal experience to back them and whatever source is giving you this impression I'm not sure I'd give much credibility.

If you wish to skip the 4th and 6th gen intel's despite topping just about every performance chart conceivable without much basis, that's certainly an option. I would strongly consider doing more research though rather than take mine or anyone else's word for it if you're in doubt. There are also z97 boards for the 4790k (or other haswell cpu's) that have usb 3.1 options if looking to go that route. Either way you should have a solid system for the next several years easily.

 

[lieutenantfrost]

As far as I know the skylake substrate issues were from a report of a reviewer who used a power driver rather than hand tightening the heatsink. Many have used skylake now without bending issues, including those with large coolers. Care when moving a system with a large air cooler has always been recommended. Otherwise thousands of users have no issue with large air coolers including myself. If you look at the large number of sites covering the 'bending' issue, pay close attention and you'll quickly notice that even though there are numerous sites that broke the story they all link back to the same exact article. More of a copy/paste news frenzy. In reality there seemed to be one original report of it in a review in which the reviewers admitted they may have been at fault.

I'm also not aware of haswell voltage issues. Anyone might have isolated specific problems regarding their motherboard, their particular settings and so on but not voltage issues in general. I think someone's been giving you a lot of misinformation or perhaps you came across one or two isolated incidents which don't represent the majority.

According to pcpartpicker, 86 users gave the 6600k 4.8/5.0 rating, 517 users gave the 4790k 4.9/5.0 rating. On newegg, the 6600k has already been given the customer choice award and 156 users have given it 5/5 eggs, the 4790k on newegg is also a customer choice award winner with 982 5/5 eggs. Both are top end for the i5's and i7's, similar to the 4690k and 6700k.

Granted user ratings aren't everything but I would think if there were all these 'issues' there would be unhappy people voicing concern rather than some of the best ratings given to hardware. It doesn't really get less 'pita' than that. My thoughts are there are a lot of misguided perceptions without much personal experience to back them and whatever source is giving you this impression I'm not sure I'd give much credibility.

If you wish to skip the 4th and 6th gen intel's despite topping just about every performance chart conceivable without much basis, that's certainly an option. I would strongly consider doing more research though rather than take mine or anyone else's word for it if you're in doubt. There are also z97 boards for the 4790k (or other haswell cpu's) that have usb 3.1 options if looking to go that route. Either way you should have a solid system for the next several years easily.

The voltage issues I was referring to

It's the sleep states , some PSU's have trouble.

Corsair explains it here.

When an Intel Core (i3, i5, i7) processor is idle, it goes into a sleep state that requires less power than when the CPU is active. Since the motherboard voltage regulation modules that provide power to the CPU gets their power from the power supply's +12V rail, these sleep states can dramatically reduce the load on the power supply's +12V rail.

According to Intel's presentation at IDF, the new Haswell processors enter a sleep state called C7 that can drop processor power usage as low as 0.05A. Even if the sleeping CPU is the only load on the +12V rail, most power supplies can handle a load this low. The potential problem comes up when there is still a substantial load on the power supply's non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V). If the load on these non-primary rails are above a certain threshold (which varies by PSU), the +12V can go out of spec (voltages greater than +12.6V). If the +12V is out of spec when the motherboard comes out of the sleep state, the PSU's protection may prevent the PSU from running and will cause the power supply to "latch off". This will require the user to cycle the power on their power supply using the power switch on the back of the unit.

While we are still working with Intel on the details of the testing methodology they use to check PSUs for Haswell compatibility, it is already known that a power supply that uses DC to DC for the non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V) will not have an issue with the new low power sleep states. This is because a DC to DC buck converter is used to convert +12V to +3.3V and +5V. This means that no matter what load the CPU puts on the power supply, there will always be a load on the +12V because the +12V is required to provide power to +3.3V and +5V.

Corsair utilizes this DC to DC technology in most of their power supplies. Starting with the CX750 and CX750M and moving all of the way through the GS Series, TX and TX-M Series, the HX Series, both the AX Series Gold and AX Series Platinum, and the new AXi Series. So whatever your budget, if you choose Intel's new Haswell processor and wish to utilize the new, low power C7 sleep state, Corsair has a power supply for you.
Pick as the solution


but from what you said above it doesn't seem like it affected many users?

 

[lieutenantfrost]

As far as I know the skylake substrate issues were from a report of a reviewer who used a power driver rather than hand tightening the heatsink. Many have used skylake now without bending issues, including those with large coolers. Care when moving a system with a large air cooler has always been recommended. Otherwise thousands of users have no issue with large air coolers including myself. If you look at the large number of sites covering the 'bending' issue, pay close attention and you'll quickly notice that even though there are numerous sites that broke the story they all link back to the same exact article. More of a copy/paste news frenzy. In reality there seemed to be one original report of it in a review in which the reviewers admitted they may have been at fault.

I'm also not aware of haswell voltage issues. Anyone might have isolated specific problems regarding their motherboard, their particular settings and so on but not voltage issues in general. I think someone's been giving you a lot of misinformation or perhaps you came across one or two isolated incidents which don't represent the majority.

According to pcpartpicker, 86 users gave the 6600k 4.8/5.0 rating, 517 users gave the 4790k 4.9/5.0 rating. On newegg, the 6600k has already been given the customer choice award and 156 users have given it 5/5 eggs, the 4790k on newegg is also a customer choice award winner with 982 5/5 eggs. Both are top end for the i5's and i7's, similar to the 4690k and 6700k.

Granted user ratings aren't everything but I would think if there were all these 'issues' there would be unhappy people voicing concern rather than some of the best ratings given to hardware. It doesn't really get less 'pita' than that. My thoughts are there are a lot of misguided perceptions without much personal experience to back them and whatever source is giving you this impression I'm not sure I'd give much credibility.

If you wish to skip the 4th and 6th gen intel's despite topping just about every performance chart conceivable without much basis, that's certainly an option. I would strongly consider doing more research though rather than take mine or anyone else's word for it if you're in doubt. There are also z97 boards for the 4790k (or other haswell cpu's) that have usb 3.1 options if looking to go that route. Either way you should have a solid system for the next several years easily.

You seem very well informed, I hadn't thought to check the ratings on newegg and do a comparison. What would you buy if you were in my position? go back to haswell? or go with skylake?

 

[Spectre694]

As far as I know the skylake substrate issues were from a report of a reviewer who used a power driver rather than hand tightening the heatsink. Many have used skylake now without bending issues, including those with large coolers. Care when moving a system with a large air cooler has always been recommended. Otherwise thousands of users have no issue with large air coolers including myself. If you look at the large number of sites covering the 'bending' issue, pay close attention and you'll quickly notice that even though there are numerous sites that broke the story they all link back to the same exact article. More of a copy/paste news frenzy. In reality there seemed to be one original report of it in a review in which the reviewers admitted they may have been at fault.

I'm also not aware of haswell voltage issues. Anyone might have isolated specific problems regarding their motherboard, their particular settings and so on but not voltage issues in general. I think someone's been giving you a lot of misinformation or perhaps you came across one or two isolated incidents which don't represent the majority.

According to pcpartpicker, 86 users gave the 6600k 4.8/5.0 rating, 517 users gave the 4790k 4.9/5.0 rating. On newegg, the 6600k has already been given the customer choice award and 156 users have given it 5/5 eggs, the 4790k on newegg is also a customer choice award winner with 982 5/5 eggs. Both are top end for the i5's and i7's, similar to the 4690k and 6700k.

Granted user ratings aren't everything but I would think if there were all these 'issues' there would be unhappy people voicing concern rather than some of the best ratings given to hardware. It doesn't really get less 'pita' than that. My thoughts are there are a lot of misguided perceptions without much personal experience to back them and whatever source is giving you this impression I'm not sure I'd give much credibility.

If you wish to skip the 4th and 6th gen intel's despite topping just about every performance chart conceivable without much basis, that's certainly an option. I would strongly consider doing more research though rather than take mine or anyone else's word for it if you're in doubt. There are also z97 boards for the 4790k (or other haswell cpu's) that have usb 3.1 options if looking to go that route. Either way you should have a solid system for the next several years easily.

The voltage issues I was referring to

It's the sleep states , some PSU's have trouble.

Corsair explains it here.

When an Intel Core (i3, i5, i7) processor is idle, it goes into a sleep state that requires less power than when the CPU is active. Since the motherboard voltage regulation modules that provide power to the CPU gets their power from the power supply's +12V rail, these sleep states can dramatically reduce the load on the power supply's +12V rail.

According to Intel's presentation at IDF, the new Haswell processors enter a sleep state called C7 that can drop processor power usage as low as 0.05A. Even if the sleeping CPU is the only load on the +12V rail, most power supplies can handle a load this low. The potential problem comes up when there is still a substantial load on the power supply's non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V). If the load on these non-primary rails are above a certain threshold (which varies by PSU), the +12V can go out of spec (voltages greater than +12.6V). If the +12V is out of spec when the motherboard comes out of the sleep state, the PSU's protection may prevent the PSU from running and will cause the power supply to "latch off". This will require the user to cycle the power on their power supply using the power switch on the back of the unit.

While we are still working with Intel on the details of the testing methodology they use to check PSUs for Haswell compatibility, it is already known that a power supply that uses DC to DC for the non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V) will not have an issue with the new low power sleep states. This is because a DC to DC buck converter is used to convert +12V to +3.3V and +5V. This means that no matter what load the CPU puts on the power supply, there will always be a load on the +12V because the +12V is required to provide power to +3.3V and +5V.

Corsair utilizes this DC to DC technology in most of their power supplies. Starting with the CX750 and CX750M and moving all of the way through the GS Series, TX and TX-M Series, the HX Series, both the AX Series Gold and AX Series Platinum, and the new AXi Series. So whatever your budget, if you choose Intel's new Haswell processor and wish to utilize the new, low power C7 sleep state, Corsair has a power supply for you.
Pick as the solution


but from what you said above it doesn't seem like it affected many users?

Not really anyone.It was a known incompatibility with certain PSU (mostly ones without DC to DC converters for the minor rails) designs everyone kinda saw coming C7 was disabled by default on most mobo's for that very reason (might still be). The only people it bit were upgraders that turned C7 on and then proceeded to load up the minor rails at the same time as having an incompatible PSU. Of course a few exceptions might have happened but this was pretty much a non-issue.

 

[synphul]

Agreed on the sleep states, some psu's are capable while others are not. It only affects the extended deep sleep states c6/c7, other previous sleep states should still work fine. Worst case scenario, the pc goes to sleep and will not wake back up without turning the psu off and back on again. If that happens and if the sleep states aren't disabled all it requires is a quick bios setting change to disable c6/c7.

Not really a cpu issue as much as it is a compatibility issue with some psu's which lack the capability. There are other psu's which are 'haswell ready' aside from corsair and some which are perfectly compatible without being specifically labeled for haswell.

If prices were similar and it was a choice between the two, I'd go with the 4790k. It's a stronger cpu, has faster cores as well as hyperthreading. If you wanted things like improve m.2 support for faster m.2 drives or additional usb 3.1 options then skylake would be the way to go. Depending on the motherboard though, there is still m.2 support, usb 3.1 etc available on haswell z boards (1150) also.

Realistically there's not much difference in ddr4 compared to ddr3 for now so despite being a noticeable change in skylake real world benefits are minor at best. Some suggest that eventually ddr4 will be better but by that time it will likely be time to upgrade the motherboard and cpu anyway. Features are always worth considering so long as you'll use them. Faster m.2 support is great for those planning to use m.2 drives that take advantage of the improvements. If not planning to use m.2 then it really makes no difference whether it's the 1150 or 1151 platform.

It would be easier to suggest skylake if it were more price competitive as previous generations have been. It's a slight progressive improvement over haswell, not day and night different despite quite a few changes. In the end you're still comparing a top of the line recent i7 to a current gen top of the line i5, the i7 is still a stronger cpu. That's what I'd go with if it were me and those were the choices. Just my opinion.