Discussion Having some serious concerns about RTX 3000 series cards ...

veldrane2

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Hi all

So I have been holding back with system upgrades awaiting new hardware and just going all out and getting a whole new system once everything is out in late October / November. As most people, I have been eagerly awaiting on stuff from Nvidia, AMD, Intel.

To give you some perspective, my system is aging, I5 6600K, 32 gigs of DDR4, RTX 2070, and a pair of 500 GB Samsung Evo SSDs, with a nice headset and a 2k 27" Asus monitor. All this sitting on a nice ROG series mobo, with 4 case fans, slightly overclocked 8% across the board, running rock stable.

The reason I want to get anew system is because I want to jump fully into 4k gaming at high / ultra settings with any other bells and whistles available.

And after seeing the RTX 3000 presentation and some other related videos from other system builders and going through parts picker, Newegg, checking up component manufacturer sites directly I have some concerns.

After going through parts I have 2 major concerns.

1. Concern 1 is the RTX 3000 cooling system. And I don't see anyone, in any videos, or any tech sites or articles or anything bringing this up. I do not know how they all missed this and no one is asking Nvidia about this. It is as follows:
a. RTX 3000 cards generate a lot of heat. Really a lot of heat when under load.
b. The backside fan blows this heat upwards.
c. The heated air gets pushed by frontside fans on most cases, right over the ram causing the ram to not be properly cooled.
d. The then twice heated air will be now sucked right in by the CPU cooler causing it to be ineffective and overheating the CPU.

Nearly every single mobo I looked at, from many manufacturers, Asus, Gigabyte, Asrock, MSI, whole bunch of others, has the PCIE slots, the RAM slots, and CPU slot positioned in such a way that exactly this will happen.

Even with liquid CPU cooling this is going to be aproblem as the RAM and various other parts of mobo will now get overheated, and the CPU coolers themselves will need to run much harder causing failures and vastly shorter lifespans.

So whats up with this ? Can we get some tech articles asking about this ?

2. This isn't so much Nvidia RTX 3000 series GPU issue but rather overall, average viability of systems (people) who will be using these GPUs with 4k set ups. And the problem is simple: There are no good 4k monitors. Almost every single one I looked at, and believe me, I looked a lot, is crap, very few that do come close to being good but are still missing some stuff, are in price ranges that are just too unobtainable.

My current monitor is 2k, 27", 4ms response time, 120 Hz, built-in anti-glare. Now try to find a 4k version upgrade for it. So I started looking. Looking for 28-35", 4ms or better reponse time, 120 Hz or better, built-in anti- glare. Good luck to anyone looking for anything even remotely similar. Some, and I emphesize some, come closer then others. The closer ones grosly lack refresh rated capabilities,another words, HDMI 2.1 or equivalent or better Display Port, and are limited to 60 Hz. 60 Hz, seriously. On top of that, their manufacturers majorly screwed up on viewing angles and have to make them curved. Seriously, again? They have to actually curve the monitors cause otherwise the "ghosting" at the edges becomes so bad. And as if this wasn't enough, for the prices these go for, they don't even put in any anti glare on them. You'd think that as the gaming and enthusiast demographic ages and finds this simplest, least expensive of all the features to be the most useful, not to mention on average these are the people with most disposable income for such toys, they'd be on the ball, but no.

So to sum it up, I'm going to be getting one of the Ryzen 4000 series CPUs, a good mobo, good ram, but even if I get the RTX 3080 I still won't be able to achieve my overall system goal due to lack of monitors. The monitor is a major bottleneck. Its gonna have either <Mod Edit> refresh rate and/or response time, and have no anti glare, and on top of that it might be the crappy curved one instead of having an actual wide angle display panel in it. No point in getting the GPU.

So unless I see some resolutions, perhaps some of the 3rd party cards with cooling solutions that won't blow hot air all over the ram and various components, and eliminating air cooling from CPUs, and if there are no good 4k monitors avilable, 4k wide angle, 120Hz+ refresh rates, 4ms or better response with anti glare and in size I'm looking for, I just don't see why get this card.

There is yet a third issue, albeit this one is less prevelant as it can be mitigated by carefully choosing your case and mobo combination. That is the size of these GPUs. Even the 3080 and 3070. On many boards just occupy too much space and obstruct PCIE access for system components other then GPU as well as are simply too close. IMHO with not enough space left between them to allow good airflow and component insulation. EMI in PC components too close to each other is a thing. Those of us who are technical enough to understand this will be able to deal with it, rest of you, you're in for one hell of a headache trying to figure out whats happening with your systems when it happens.

So please feel free to give your feedback, especially if you have good technical or related engineering background, or are involved with manufacturing of GPUs, monitors etc. and can dig up some more direct feedback for us.
 
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There have been a few articles on the cooling of these cards. Seek and you shall find.

There are some very nicely specced monitors. You get what you pay for. From 1440p to 1600p to 4k. Not sure how a curved monitor mitigates ghosting.


Not sure why these cards would lead to excessive EMI. Lol I'm confident that the card manufacturers have thought this out.

It seems that you're looking for any reason to not purchase this generation of cards. Luckily, you're not forced to!
 
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RTX 2080

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Where to start.

On your assertion that these GPUs “just occupy too much space”: the RTX 2080 measures 4.5 inches by 10.5 inches and occupies 2 slots. The RTX 3080 measures 4.4 inches by 11.2 inches and also occupies 2 slots. Aside from the 3080 being 0.7 inches longer, there is very little difference in size between these two GPUs.

There are good 4K monitors available out there, but like anything in the PC world, if you want the best, the price will match. Right now a 4K monitor with all the gaming bells and whistles represents the best: expect to pay a price that reflects that. If none of the current offerings suit you, don't buy one.

And now on your many many assertions about "the RTX 3000 cooling system ."

1. The RTX 2000 series Reference Design GPUs exhausted all the heat they produced inside the case. Just because they didn't have a fan pointing up through the PCB doesn't mean that all that heat somehow bypassed touching other things like the RAM or CPU cooler in the case on its way out; that's not how fluid dynamics work. The 3080 and 3090 in comparison exhaust half of their heat outside the case, so even with higher TDPs, less heat should be exhausted inside the case than with a 2080 or a 2080 Ti. As far as I am aware, no one ever complained about their CPU or RAM overheating because of their 2080 Ti.

2. You are overthinking the affects of GPU heat on your RAM or CPU cooler. I have a RTX 2080 and a RTX 2060 in my case running 24/7 and my CPU and RAM are not suddenly failing due to too much heat. Remember that laptops have RAM that is not actively cooled and I never read about laptop RAM failing due to heat.

3. Even if you completely disagree with my assertions in #1 or 2, there is an easy solution: don't buy a reference card! All the third party card manufacturers will be happy to sell you a card with a traditional cooling system. If you still have a problem with that because the 3080 generates more heat overall than a 2080, then buy one that comes with an AIO: EVGA and at least one other company have announced liquid cooled 3000 series cards already. And buy an AIO for your CPU cooler while you are at it; that way your RAM can live a happy life running at super low temperatures.

Bottom line, there is a solution out there to every problem you have:

Don't like the reference card cooler? Buy one with a cooler you like!

Can't afford/find a 4K monitor you like? Either wait for prices to come down or wait for something better to come out!
 

vov4ik_il

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Heat would not be an issue, AMD GPUs (for example) have a long history of 300+W cards. I had a rig with 4 R9-290Xs in a Carbide Air 540 case, generating 1200W of heat and hard to tell how much noise back when they were just introduced.
However, having it dissipated from the room (not even the computer case) and having the noise and dust from the coolers is not fun.
If I had to buy one today, I would go for the lowest power consumption option, probably 3070 as it claims to have well enough under the hood and will be more than I need for gaming.
On the other hand, if it is a compute rig in a machine room with industrial AC set to 18C and the cards are needed for work and paid for, pick whatever catches your eye and does the job best.
 

johnsoner13

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Your essay either seems like a troll post or as drivinfast said, just whining for no reason when no one is making you buy anything. Have an issue with founder’s edition cards? Don’t buy them!
And I don't see anyone, in any videos, or any tech sites or articles or anything bringing this up. I do not know how they all missed this and no one is asking Nvidia about this.
You are the chosen one, the one tech guru we’ve been missing this entire time! Everyone is so close-minded, but not you!
There are no good 4k monitors.
Maybe not that you can afford
 

hotaru.hino

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1. Concern 1 is the RTX 3000 cooling system. And I don't see anyone, in any videos, or any tech sites or articles or anything bringing this up. I do not know how they all missed this and no one is asking Nvidia about this. It is as follows:
a. RTX 3000 cards generate a lot of heat. Really a lot of heat when under load.
b. The backside fan blows this heat upwards.
c. The heated air gets pushed by frontside fans on most cases, right over the ram causing the ram to not be properly cooled.
d. The then twice heated air will be now sucked right in by the CPU cooler causing it to be ineffective and overheating the CPU.

Nearly every single mobo I looked at, from many manufacturers, Asus, Gigabyte, Asrock, MSI, whole bunch of others, has the PCIE slots, the RAM slots, and CPU slot positioned in such a way that exactly this will happen.

Even with liquid CPU cooling this is going to be aproblem as the RAM and various other parts of mobo will now get overheated, and the CPU coolers themselves will need to run much harder causing failures and vastly shorter lifespans.

So whats up with this ? Can we get some tech articles asking about this ?
Even the 3090's TDP isn't the hottest card around. That record goes to the R9 295X2 at a whopping 500W. Even then there were cards just as bad as 3080 and 3090 like the GTX 295, GTX 590, GTX 690, Titan Z, R9 Fury X, and Vega 64.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the other fan in NVIDIA's design is pushing air out of the case. The current cooler designs of most GPU cooler simply recirculates the air in the case. So NVIDIA's design really saves the CPU from a lot of the hot air it would've had to deal with anyway. And unless you're starving your CPU and RAM from intake air, the GPU's exhaust isn't going to contribute enough to overheat it unless maybe you're running Prime95/AIDA64 on top of FurMark, which is an unrealistic test.

Also it isn't just NVIDIA that's doing the "through air" design. Designs from Gigabyte, ASUS, and EVGA all have "through air" designs. Except none of them are pushing air out of the case directly unlike NVIDIA's design.

2. This isn't so much Nvidia RTX 3000 series GPU issue but rather overall, average viability of systems (people) who will be using these GPUs with 4k set ups. And the problem is simple: There are no good 4k monitors. Almost every single one I looked at, and believe me, I looked a lot, is crap, very few that do come close to being good but are still missing some stuff, are in price ranges that are just too unobtainable.

My current monitor is 2k, 27", 4ms response time, 120 Hz, built-in anti-glare. Now try to find a 4k version upgrade for it. So I started looking. Looking for 28-35", 4ms or better reponse time, 120 Hz or better, built-in anti- glare.
I guess the ASUS PG27UQ doesn't exist in your world. (I'm sure Acer has an equivalent)

If it's a price point issue, sure, I'll give you that. But it seems disingenious to claim there are no "good 4K monitors" that are an upgrade to whatever you have when there's been one for a while.
 
On the heat point. Most gpu’s dump the hot air into the case and in most cases the exhaust is back/top of the case. Therefore the hot air has always had to go around the front of the gpu and then through/past the cpu to get to the exhaust fans. All NVidia have done is make this airflow more efficient with a more natural flow.
 

veldrane2

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There have been a few articles on the cooling of these cards. Seek and you shall find.

There are some very nicely specced monitors. You get what you pay for. From 1440p to 1600p to 4k. Not sure how a curved monitor mitigates ghosting.


Not sure why these cards would lead to excessive EMI. Lol I'm confident that the card manufacturers have thought this out.

It seems that you're looking for any reason to not purchase this generation of cards. Luckily, you're not forced to!
Bro, if you do find anything of what i'm looking for article / video wise pertaining to thertx 3000 series please link it. Everything I found is for the2000 series, not 3000.

And the monitors, nope. And the EMI thing,its just a concern if I were to put other things too close to the GPU, but either way, that's more of an engineering thing fro us engineers to ponder over.
 

veldrane2

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Where to start.

On your assertion that these GPUs “just occupy too much space”: the RTX 2080 measures 4.5 inches by 10.5 inches and occupies 2 slots. The RTX 3080 measures 4.4 inches by 11.2 inches and also occupies 2 slots. Aside from the 3080 being 0.7 inches longer, there is very little difference in size between these two GPUs.

There are good 4K monitors available out there, but like anything in the PC world, if you want the best, the price will match. Right now a 4K monitor with all the gaming bells and whistles represents the best: expect to pay a price that reflects that. If none of the current offerings suit you, don't buy one.

And now on your many many assertions about "the RTX 3000 cooling system ."

1. The RTX 2000 series Reference Design GPUs exhausted all the heat they produced inside the case. Just because they didn't have a fan pointing up through the PCB doesn't mean that all that heat somehow bypassed touching other things like the RAM or CPU cooler in the case on its way out; that's not how fluid dynamics work. The 3080 and 3090 in comparison exhaust half of their heat outside the case, so even with higher TDPs, less heat should be exhausted inside the case than with a 2080 or a 2080 Ti. As far as I am aware, no one ever complained about their CPU or RAM overheating because of their 2080 Ti.

2. You are overthinking the affects of GPU heat on your RAM or CPU cooler. I have a RTX 2080 and a RTX 2060 in my case running 24/7 and my CPU and RAM are not suddenly failing due to too much heat. Remember that laptops have RAM that is not actively cooled and I never read about laptop RAM failing due to heat.

3. Even if you completely disagree with my assertions in #1 or 2, there is an easy solution: don't buy a reference card! All the third party card manufacturers will be happy to sell you a card with a traditional cooling system. If you still have a problem with that because the 3080 generates more heat overall than a 2080, then buy one that comes with an AIO: EVGA and at least one other company have announced liquid cooled 3000 series cards already. And buy an AIO for your CPU cooler while you are at it; that way your RAM can live a happy life running at super low temperatures.

Bottom line, there is a solution out there to every problem you have:

Don't like the reference card cooler? Buy one with a cooler you like!

Can't afford/find a 4K monitor you like? Either wait for prices to come down or wait for something better to come out!
Hmm, I am wondering about third party stuff, of which so far I haven"t seen anything like I'm looking for, but its still very early days.

The main thing that got me so concerned about the heat was the air flow graph presented by Nvidia.

And of course I have had systems with hot GPUs before, but that doesn't mean any of them ever concentrated that hot stream directly over RAM and / or right into the CPU cooler intake.

And I have had 2 systems fry RAM on me in the past, admitedly though, those were both almost "throwaway", as they were old rigs I have upgraded from and I was messing around with them,

And I'm just not a big fan of liquid cooling, I prefer air. I'd rather not OC too hard and remain on air then OC hard and have to deal with liquid coolers.

And monitors, well, this is what PC part picker comes up with for me. My monitor budget is around $2000, so I guess I thought I'd be able to pick up something good but it turns out not to be so. https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#F=711200000,889000000&r=384002160&D=120000,280000&G=100000000000,4000000000000&C=0

And this is Newegg, as you notice the only available refresh rate is 60Hz. No HDMI 2.1, not even 2.0 or DP1.4 or 1.4a
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?cm_sp=CAT_Monitors_2-_-VisNav-_-Gaming-Monitors_2&N=100898493 600030631 600030629 600338096 600030621 600490937 601191718 600338147

If you do know of one that fits the specs and is of a semi reputable brand, please do link it.
 

RTX 2080

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Hmm, I am wondering about third party stuff, of which so far I haven"t seen anything like I'm looking for, but its still very early days.

The main thing that got me so concerned about the heat was the air flow graph presented by Nvidia.

And of course I have had systems with hot GPUs before, but that doesn't mean any of them ever concentrated that hot stream directly over RAM and / or right into the CPU cooler intake.

And I have had 2 systems fry RAM on me in the past, admitedly though, those were both almost "throwaway", as they were old rigs I have upgraded from and I was messing around with them,

And I'm just not a big fan of liquid cooling, I prefer air. I'd rather not OC too hard and remain on air then OC hard and have to deal with liquid coolers.

And monitors, well, this is what PC part picker comes up with for me. My monitor budget is around $2000, so I guess I thought I'd be able to pick up something good but it turns out not to be so. https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#F=711200000,889000000&r=384002160&D=120000,280000&G=100000000000,4000000000000&C=0

And this is Newegg, as you notice the only available refresh rate is 60Hz. No HDMI 2.1, not even 2.0 or DP1.4 or 1.4a
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?cm_sp=CAT_Monitors_2-_-VisNav-_-Gaming-Monitors_2&N=100898493 600030631 600030629 600338096 600030621 600490937 601191718 600338147

If you do know of one that fits the specs and is of a semi reputable brand, please do link it.
Hm, as far as 4K monitors are concerned in your size, yeah, you do seem to fall in a bit of a dead zone. For whatever reason, all the ones with the good features seem to be sold in either 27 inches (like my Acer Predator X27) or there is a 43 inch one available from ASUS I believe. Everything in between those sizes are ultrawides, but the vertical resolution of many of those is 1440p, not 4K. I actually have an Alienware 34 inch ultrawide, and its a very decent monitor, but I realized that its 3440 x 1440 resolution combined with its massive size means that its pixel density is only slightly better than that of a 24 inch 1080p monitor.

If you want a 4K monitor that checks ALL of your boxes, you should probably wait for it; it doesn't exist yet. I bought my X27 knowing full well that even though Displayport 2.0 exists, it comes with Displayport 1.4 which means I'm limited to 98 Hz with 10 bit color, 120 Hz with 8 bit color, and 144 Hz only with chroma subsampling. I'm also seeing OLED panels in phones, laptops, and TVs, but nothing for gaming monitors yet. If you don't want to sink your money into something that you aren't happy with, I guess there isn't much of a choice but to wait for them to decide to make it. Do you really need an increase in size though? 27 inches @ 4k resolution looks very good to me and I wouldn't want my pixel density any lower. For me, the reason to upgrade to 4k wasn't so that I could make my monitor bigger, it was to get better pixel density.

I get not wanting to deal with liquid coolers, but a CPU AIO used on its own would definitely keep your CPU cooler irregardless of what GPU you decided to use. Then you'd have the convenience of buying whatever air cooled GPU you want and not having it significantly impacting your CPU temperature. As for RAM, RAM is cheap; if you burn out a stick, just buy a new one, not a big deal. More than likely that that wont happen though.
 

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