Havoc Demon's ability

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Seems like a stupid question...i think...

Havoc Demon
{5}{B}{B}
Creature -- Demon
5/5
Flying
When Havoc Demon is put into a graveyard from play, all creatures get
-5/-5 until end of turn.

Does the -5/-5 last until end of turn, even for new creatures brought
in well after the Havoc Demon left play, kind of like a crusade or
other continuous effect would? Or is the "all creatures" locked in
when it Havoc Demon goes to the graveyard, and ones that come in after
it are fine?

Can someone point to the section of the rules that addreses this
question? I was trying to locate it last night in mid-game, and it
just didn't pan out.

Thanks,

Rick Kunkel

 

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Hello, Rick!
You wrote on Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:02:38 -0700:

RK> Seems like a stupid question...i think...
No rules question is stupid in this forum...

RK> Havoc Demon
RK> {5}{B}{B}
RK> Creature -- Demon
RK> 5/5
RK> Flying
RK> When Havoc Demon is put into a graveyard from play, all
RK> creatures get
RK> -5/-5 until end of turn.

RK> Does the -5/-5 last until end of turn, even for new creatures
RK> brought
RK> in well after the Havoc Demon left play, kind of like a crusade
RK> or
RK> other continuous effect would? Or is the "all creatures" locked
RK> in
RK> when it Havoc Demon goes to the graveyard, and ones that come in
RK> after
RK> it are fine?

Those creatures that come into play after the demise of Havoc Demon are
absolutely fine. The ability of Havoc Demon is *triggered* while the
ability of Crusade/Bad Moon/etc. is *static* - and that makes all the
difference (see rule quotes below).

RK> Can someone point to the section of the rules that addreses this
RK> question? I was trying to locate it last night in mid-game, and
RK> it just didn't pan out.

Here is the relevant rule:
418.3b Continuous effects from spells, activated abilities, and
triggered abilities that modify the characteristics or change the
controller of one or more objects don't affect objects that weren't
affected when the continuous effect began.
Compare it to the following:
418.4a A continuous effect generated by a static ability isn't "locked
in"; it applies at any given moment to whatever its text indicates.
Both rules have some good examples.
Regards,
Arkady.

 

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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:02:38 -0700, Rick Kunkel
<NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:

>Havoc Demon
>{5}{B}{B}
>Creature -- Demon
>5/5
>Flying
>When Havoc Demon is put into a graveyard from play, all creatures get
>-5/-5 until end of turn.
>
>Does the -5/-5 last until end of turn, even for new creatures brought
>in well after the Havoc Demon left play, kind of like a crusade or
>other continuous effect would?
No.

>Or is the "all creatures" locked in
>when it Havoc Demon goes to the graveyard, and ones that come in after
>it are fine?
Yes.

>Can someone point to the section of the rules that addreses this
>question? I was trying to locate it last night in mid-game, and it
>just didn't pan out.

Comp rules:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer

418.3b Continuous effects from spells, activated abilities, and
triggered abilities that modify the characteristics or change the
controller of one or more objects don't affect objects that weren't
affected when the continuous effect began. Note that these work
differently than continuous effects from static abilities. Continuous
effects that don't modify characteristics or change the controller of
objects modify the rules of the game, so they can affect objects that
weren't affected when the continuous effect began.
Example: An effect that reads "All white creatures get +1/+1 until end
of turn" gives the bonus to all permanents that are white creatures
when the spell or ability resolves-even if they change color later-and
doesn't affect those that come into play or turn white afterward.
Example: An effect that reads "Prevent all damage creatures would deal
this turn" doesn't modify any object's characteristics, so it's
modifying the rules of the game. That means the effect will apply even
to damage from creatures that weren't in play when the continuous
effect began. It also affects damage from permanents that become
creatures later in the turn.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Seems like a stupid question...i think...
>
>Havoc Demon 5BB Creature -- Demon
>5/5 Flying When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, all creatures get -5/-5
> until end of turn.
>
>Does the -5/-5 last until end of turn, even for new creatures brought
>in well after the Havoc Demon left play, kind of like a crusade or
>other continuous effect would?

No. This is a continuous effect from a -resolving- ability, and affects
characteristics of permanents, so ONLY affects things that match its
specifications at the time it resolves.

Continuous effects from static abilities check "all the time"; continuous
effects from resolving abilities that do NOT affect characteristics of
permanents ... such as one that says "When this comes into play, prevent all
combat damage that creatures would deal this turn" ... check throughout
their duration. But ones that affect characteristics, and are from resolving
abilities, pick the set of what they affect -on resolution-, and never change
that set later.

> Or is the "all creatures" locked in
>when it Havoc Demon goes to the graveyard, and ones that come in after
>it are fine?

Not this, either. It's "locked in" a bit later, _after_ the Demon's already
in the graveyard... when the triggered ability resolves.

>Can someone point to the section of the rules that addreses this
>question? I was trying to locate it last night in mid-game, and it
>just didn't pan out.

413.2f-2g touch on this, but what you want is 418.3b and 418.4a (for resolving
stuff, and static abilities, respectively).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>Continuous effects from static abilities check "all the time"; continuous
>effects from resolving abilities that do NOT affect characteristics of
>permanents ...

and, as the rules now note, also do not affect who controls a permanent ...

>such as one that says "When this comes into play, prevent all
>combat damage that creatures would deal this turn" ... check throughout
>their duration. But ones that affect characteristics,

or change something's controller

>and are from resolving
>abilities, pick the set of what they affect -on resolution-, and never change
>that set later.

It's a fairly recent addition, relatively speaking, so I often don't remember
it's there.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.