HDD for windows server

[cybertechie]

Hi guys,

I'm preparing for MCSE certification. I was in the process to put together a basic system to run windows sever 2012 R2. Operating system was installed on a spare laptop HDD( 5400 rpm). It turned out to be a bad idea. System is running slow and feels sluggish. I'm on a tight budget and would like to buy an new HDD under 80$. I can buy a 120 Gb SSD or a 1 TB HDD like WD black under my budget.

upon checking the windows installation folder, total used space is only around 12 gb. .Is it s smart idea to buy a low capacity ( 64gb/120gb) SSD drive for OS or a better option would a 1 Tb mechanic hdd like the WD black?

 

[popatim]

Sluggish? What are the system's specs?
I have my server also installed on a laptop drive (plus a second one as a dedicated backup drive) and its not the least bit sluggish. 8GB ram and an Athlon2 240 dual core processor. 8Tb of storage drives.

 

[rhysiam]

If you're just using it for testing a 120GB SSD is perfect. It'll be enough for any Windows install and will make a massive, massive difference for all the reboots you'll be doing after configuring settings, etc. 120GB can become an issue over time, particularly for a server if you're running log files, etc, but for a few months it's fine.

Do you already have a working computer? (Laptop or desktop, doesn't matter?) If so, I'd highly recommend you look at using something like Virtual Box and building a virtual machine for your testing. MSCE certs are all about the software, which is identical within a virtual machine. PLUS, and this is the biggest plus, VMs give you the ability to "snapshot". That's absolutely game changing for testing, research/mucking around purposes. Snapshot your clean OS install, and then re-snapshot any time you're making significant changes. You'll undoubtedly at some point break something (that's what testing is all about) and it's massively handy to just be able to revent to a snapshot and try again... rather than trying to diagnose and fix whatever it is your accidentally broke (probably because you didn't fully understand what you were doing -> again, that's what testing is all about!).

A few years back I had a major domain upgrade (firewall box, 2x exchange servers, domain controllers, etc). Run the whole environment up in virtual machines off a single desktop computer (with plenty of RAM), made all the mistakes at that point, then rolled out a smooth upgrade. It's the best way to go by a mile.

 

[cybertechie]

System specs are Intel i3 2120 3.3 Ghz processor, 8 gb DDr3 RAm and radeon 6770 GPU. Motherboard only has Sata 2 slots.
By sluggish i mean the boot times are around 50 seconds and moreover it takes about 2 mins for the server just to settle down after it boots up

 

[cybertechie]

If you're just using it for testing a 120GB SSD is perfect. It'll be enough for any Windows install and will make a massive, massive difference for all the reboots you'll be doing after configuring settings, etc. 120GB can become an issue over time, particularly for a server if you're running log files, etc, but for a few months it's fine.

Do you already have a working computer? (Laptop or desktop, doesn't matter?) If so, I'd highly recommend you look at using something like Virtual Box and building a virtual machine for your testing. MSCE certs are all about the software, which is identical within a virtual machine. PLUS, and this is the biggest plus, VMs give you the ability to "snapshot". That's absolutely game changing for testing, research/mucking around purposes. Snapshot your clean OS install, and then re-snapshot any time you're making significant changes. You'll undoubtedly at some point break something (that's what testing is all about) and it's massively handy to just be able to revent to a snapshot and try again... rather than trying to diagnose and fix whatever it is your accidentally broke (probably because you didn't fully understand what you were doing -> again, that's what testing is all about!).

.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was running a Virtual box setup on my laptop before i decided to switch to desktop. Although my laptop runs on i5 processor( intel 4210U) with an SSD ( samsung Evo)and 6 GB RAM however it could not handle the load of server and couple of Client machines in VM . As soon i turn on server 2012 and couple of client machines, RAM usage jumps to 90% of total RAM available. Unfortunately i had already used all slots so any upgrade meant discarding one of the RAM sticks.

I have to admit that server felt really snappy and fast while running in VM environment on the laptop however for some reason the desktop felt very sluggish and i thought it was because of my Slow 5400 rpm HDD.

 

[rhysiam]

Thanks for the suggestion. I was running a Virtual box setup on my laptop before i decided to switch to desktop. Although my laptop runs on i5 processor( intel 4210U) with an SSD ( samsung Evo)and 6 GB RAM however it could not handle the load of server and couple of Client machines in VM . As soon i turn on server 2012 and couple of client machines, RAM usage jumps to 90% of total RAM available. Unfortunately i had already used all slots so any upgrade meant discarding one of the RAM sticks.

I have to admit that server felt really snappy and fast while running in VM environment on the laptop however for some reason the desktop felt very sluggish and i thought it was because of my Slow 5400 rpm HDD.

I suspect you're right and the HDD is what's making performance tank. Win Server runs up a whole heap of additional services and processors after boot which are all really IO intensive.

I'm still voting for virtual box though. Simply add RAM to your laptop and it'll run just fine. The processor might slow things down at some points, but a processor bottleneck is usually a pretty graceful affair, things slow down a little but you don't get the absolute nose-dive in performance and responsiveness like you get with insufficient RAM or when a mechanical HDD is trying to load a heap of processes and services at once. Your processor takes 16GB of RAM... why not just upgrade it?

I assume you have a 2GB and a 4GB SODIMM at the moment.

You can get 2x8GBs for 16GB total for $110: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148614
So that's over bugdet.

OR, a single 8GB SODIMMs start at $54: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313237
Add that to the 4 you already and you'll be on 12GB RAM, which should be pretty capable of a server and a client or two.

DO check compatibility on your RAM before purchasing!

FYI, Windows will "use" as much RAM as it possibly can. Don't pay any attention to the "free" RAM in task manager... as Windows just keeps stuff in RAM on the off chance it might be used again. What's key is the "available" RAM -> if that starts getting low, like under 500MB, then you're really running out!

 

[rhysiam]

I should say that if you're committed to the separate desktop for testing, then I'd suggest that the symptoms you describe ("sluggish" at boot and for a period after login) are caused by either:

1) not enough RAM AND/OR
2) slow storage

Your HDD is slow and what you describe is exactly what I'd expect. I'm guessing if you log in and then walk away for 10 minutes, it then runs okay? Is that right? If so, SSD is the solution if you're committed to sticking with the desktop.

 

[cybertechie]

I should say that if you're committed to the separate desktop for testing, then I'd suggest that the symptoms you describe ("sluggish" at boot and for a period after login) are caused by either:

1) not enough RAM AND/OR
2) slow storage

Your HDD is slow and what you describe is exactly what I'd expect. I'm guessing if you log in and then walk away for 10 minutes, it then runs okay? Is that right? If so, SSD is the solution if you're committed to sticking with the desktop.

yes that is right. It takes about 2-3 mins for the boot to complete successfully and even after that the system is a bit slow for next few minutes. RAM does not seem to be the problem since i have just installed server OS and there is not even a domain controller installed yet so chances of system running short of RAM is nil.

Is SSD the best option? How about a fast mechanic drive like WD black?

 

[rhysiam]

What matters in that situation is IOPS - input/output operations per second.

Your slow mechanical drive might manage, 50 IOPS, maybe 30... I don't really know I'm guessing.
A WD black manages around 100-150, so for a mechanical HDD it's quite impressive. Easily double the performance of your current drive: http://www.storagereview.com/wd_black_4tb_review_wd4001faex

Just to put that in perspective though, even a cheap SSD under sub-optimal conditions will manage well over 1000 IOPS, with decent SSDs like the 850EVO getting 5000-8000 IOPS under the worst-possible use-cases. Peak IOPS for those drives are easily 60K or more.

So while a WD Black is fast for a mechanical HDD, it's far, far slower than even a "slow" SSD.

 

[cybertechie]

thanks rhysiam for the input. Finally decided not to use the laptop for server and instead upgrade my desktop. I was not very confident of running multiple servers + client machine on a laptop with ulv processor and moreover the laptop RAM upgrade was limited to 16 gigs but on the other hand i can upgrade the RAM to 32 gigs on desktop in-case need arises. As recommended by you ,i'm buying SSD to install server OS . I have another 500 GB 7200 rpm HDD lying around in-case need arises.

This would be final specs of the workstation i'm planning to build

AMD 8320
Gigabyte 970A mobo
16 GB 1866 Mhz RAM
120GB HDD + 500 GB 7200 rpm drive

Does this look good enough to run 3 servers( Domain controller, DHCP, DNS) and at-least 3 client machines( Windows 8)?

The place i live the entire setup will be costing me around 350$ after trading in my current hardware( i3 second gen processor, 8 gb RAM and basic H81 mobo)

 

[rhysiam]

thanks rhysiam for the input. Finally decided not to use the laptop for server and instead upgrade my desktop. I was not very confident of running multiple servers + client machine on a laptop with ulv processor and moreover the laptop RAM upgrade was limited to 16 gigs but on the other hand i can upgrade the RAM to 32 gigs on desktop in-case need arises. As recommended by you ,i'm buying SSD to install server OS . I have another 500 GB 7200 rpm HDD lying around in-case need arises.

This would be final specs of the workstation i'm planning to build

AMD 8320
Gigabyte 970A mobo
16 GB 1866 Mhz RAM
120GB HDD + 500 GB 7200 rpm drive

Does this look good enough to run 3 servers( Domain controller, DHCP, DNS) and at-least 3 client machines( Windows 8)?

The place i live the entire setup will be costing me around 350$ after trading in my current hardware( i3 second gen processor, 8 gb RAM and basic H81 mobo)

As with all virtualisation, RAM will be your biggest issue. Are you running Win7/Win8 as the base OS and you're intending to then run your servers in virtual box on top of Win7/8. Is that right? Aren't you then going to have to boot your virtual machines on the mechanical HDD, because the SSD will be more or less filled up by the base OS install? Won't that then leave you in exactly the same situation as you are now?

16GB RAM is enough for whatever OS you're running virutalbox on, one server and a few clients. Maybe you could squeeze a second Windows server, but then you'd really be starting to push it. If you want 3 servers + 3 clients + a host OS, you really need to look at 32GB RAM at least.

BUT: -> most domains small and medium businesses would have DHCP and DNS running on a domain controller, are you sure you need 3 servers + clients for your testing? If you do, you need to look at 32GB RAM, and you'll have to live on mechanical storage unless you can up that too (which means allowing maybe 5 minutes per server to boot and get to a usable state).

If you can actually live with 16GB RAM, I would encourage you (yet again) to consider putting the budget towards the (fully working!) laptop. What is your laptop (processor?). Is there added benefit for you to have a better desktop that you're looking to achieve here too (do you want a gaming box when you're done)? -> Because if so, then putting money into the desktop makes sense. But if you literally just want the best possible test environment right now AND want to minimise your spend AND can live with 16GB RAM, the laptop will be the best option.

People think "server" and they imagine high CPU requirements. Win Server 2012 runs pretty much the same kernel as Windows 8. It runs a bunch of extra server related services, so it does need more memory and takes longer to boot, but once those services are loaded, if they're sitting idle, there's basically no CPU impact at all. It's much the same as Windows 8. Of course once you connect 100 clients to it and they're all working, all those additional services have things to do and the CPU starts to have to work... I'm not suggesting anyone run a Windows Server on a ULV processor in a production environment. But your test environment is going to have a few clients, with only physical person generating tasks for the server to do. You on your own just can't make the server work that hard. There are times with system boot, installing updates and programs, etc, where you will be CPU bound. That little ULV processor will be working its socks off. But as I said in a previous post, CPU "bottnecks" are usually fairly graceful. CPUs are fantastic at multi-tasking and prioritising important tasks and even if the program install in the virtual machine (or whatever you're doing) is hammering your CPU, you'll find that although your host system might run a little slower, it'll still be usable. That's completely unlike what a mechanical HDD does under stress, where there's nothing you can do but go and make a coffee and check the news on your phone until that poor old drive finally finishes its to-do list.

If I were in your shoes and my laptop had USB3.0, here's what I'd do:
- up the laptop to 16GB RAM (~$110)
- get myself a passable ~240GB SSD ($90) in a good SATA3 USB3 enclosure ($10-30)

For $210ish, you'd have 16GB of RAM and plenty of flash storage to run your VMs on. You will lose some performance running an SSD over USB3, so if there's an option to put in internally (can you ditch your optical drive if you have one?) that'll improve performance. But an SSD over USB3 is still far, far faster than an internal mechanical HDD.

Sorry this has turned into an essay. I should have stopped long ago. If you have good reason to upgrade the desktop, or really need the 32GB RAM, then that's probably your best shot. But if you main reason for avoiding the laptop is the CPU... I think you're spending money in the wrong places personally.

Good luck.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be upping the laptop to 16GB RAM, buying myself a nice USB3 SATA 3 external enclosure (assuming your laptop has USB3?)

 

[cybertechie]

thanks rhysiam for the input. Finally decided not to use the laptop for server and instead upgrade my desktop. I was not very confident of running multiple servers + client machine on a laptop with ulv processor and moreover the laptop RAM upgrade was limited to 16 gigs but on the other hand i can upgrade the RAM to 32 gigs on desktop in-case need arises. As recommended by you ,i'm buying SSD to install server OS . I have another 500 GB 7200 rpm HDD lying around in-case need arises.

This would be final specs of the workstation i'm planning to build

AMD 8320
Gigabyte 970A mobo
16 GB 1866 Mhz RAM
120GB HDD + 500 GB 7200 rpm drive

Does this look good enough to run 3 servers( Domain controller, DHCP, DNS) and at-least 3 client machines( Windows 8)?

The place i live the entire setup will be costing me around 350$ after trading in my current hardware( i3 second gen processor, 8 gb RAM and basic H81 mobo)

As with all virtualisation, RAM will be your biggest issue. Are you running Win7/Win8 as the base OS and you're intending to then run your servers in virtual box on top of Win7/8. Is that right? Aren't you then going to have to boot your virtual machines on the mechanical HDD, because the SSD will be more or less filled up by the base OS install? Won't that then leave you in exactly the same situation as you are now?

16GB RAM is enough for whatever OS you're running virutalbox on, one server and a few clients. Maybe you could squeeze a second Windows server, but then you'd really be starting to push it. If you want 3 servers + 3 clients + a host OS, you really need to look at 32GB RAM at least.

BUT: -> most domains small and medium businesses would have DHCP and DNS running on a domain controller, are you sure you need 3 servers + clients for your testing? If you do, you need to look at 32GB RAM, and you'll have to live on mechanical storage unless you can up that too (which means allowing maybe 5 minutes per server to boot and get to a usable state).

If you can actually live with 16GB RAM, I would encourage you (yet again) to consider putting the budget towards the (fully working!) laptop. What is your laptop (processor?). Is there added benefit for you to have a better desktop that you're looking to achieve here too (do you want a gaming box when you're done)? -> Because if so, then putting money into the desktop makes sense. But if you literally just want the best possible test environment right now AND want to minimise your spend AND can live with 16GB RAM, the laptop will be the best option.

People think "server" and they imagine high CPU requirements. Win Server 2012 runs pretty much the same kernel as Windows 8. It runs a bunch of extra server related services, so it does need more memory and takes longer to boot, but once those services are loaded, if they're sitting idle, there's basically no CPU impact at all. It's much the same as Windows 8. Of course once you connect 100 clients to it and they're all working, all those additional services have things to do and the CPU starts to have to work... I'm not suggesting anyone run a Windows Server on a ULV processor in a production environment. But your test environment is going to have a few clients, with only physical person generating tasks for the server to do. You on your own just can't make the server work that hard. There are times with system boot, installing updates and programs, etc, where you will be CPU bound. That little ULV processor will be working its socks off. But as I said in a previous post, CPU "bottnecks" are usually fairly graceful. CPUs are fantastic at multi-tasking and prioritising important tasks and even if the program install in the virtual machine (or whatever you're doing) is hammering your CPU, you'll find that although your host system might run a little slower, it'll still be usable. That's completely unlike what a mechanical HDD does under stress, where there's nothing you can do but go and make a coffee and check the news on your phone until that poor old drive finally finishes its to-do list.

If I were in your shoes and my laptop had USB3.0, here's what I'd do:
- up the laptop to 16GB RAM (~$110)
- get myself a passable ~240GB SSD ($90) in a good SATA3 USB3 enclosure ($10-30)

For $210ish, you'd have 16GB of RAM and plenty of flash storage to run your VMs on. You will lose some performance running an SSD over USB3, so if there's an option to put in internally (can you ditch your optical drive if you have one?) that'll improve performance. But an SSD over USB3 is still far, far faster than an internal mechanical HDD.

Sorry this has turned into an essay. I should have stopped long ago. If you have good reason to upgrade the desktop, or really need the 32GB RAM, then that's probably your best shot. But if you main reason for avoiding the laptop is the CPU... I think you're spending money in the wrong places personally.

Good luck.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be upping the laptop to 16GB RAM, buying myself a nice USB3 SATA 3 external enclosure (assuming your laptop has USB3?)

Thanks for the advice rhysiam . There a couple of reasons why i ditched the idea to upgrade the laptop with 16 GB memory.

1) 16 GB limitation : The place i live Laptop RAM's are expensive especially the 8 gigs sticks since not many people buy bigger laptop memories here. It would cost me close to 180$ to buy 16 GB memory ( 8Gb x 2).On the desktop front it is a different story. I can buy faster 1866 Mhz 16 GB memory for less than 120$ . From your post i understand that i may not require more than 16 GB.for a lab environment. I was just trying to leave that extra headroom in-case the need arises.

2) need for a workstation : I mostly use my laptop to browse web and watch videos etc. Although VMware was running decently on the it but i felt somewhere down the line i may need the workstation to install Server on physical machine instead of using it on VMware environment and moreover the reliability of consumer grade laptop worries me. Although this laptop is fairly new ( 3 months) however does not have any warranty coverage in the country i live currently.It makes me nervous to put all this money on laptop upgrade on a Out of warranty laptop.

processor on my laptop is an intel i5 4210 U. it's a dual core processor with 4 threads. I have already ditched the optical drive on the system for an SSD .Primary HDD on the laptop now is a 120GB Samsung Evo SSD and in place of ODD i have installed a 500 GB mechanic HDD. Currently Main OS ( windows 7) is installed on SSD. Windows server and rest of client machines in Vmware are installed on the mechanic drive. Yes, my laptop does have a USB 3.0 port.


The idea of AMD workstation came to mind since it has 8 cores and i thought running 2 or more servers won't be a problem since i can allocate Cores to each VM and moreover i felt my existing desktop needed an upgrade to get it ready for GTA 5. Existing specs of the desktop is intel i3 2120, 8 GB memory, 500 Gb mechanic drive.

What you said made a lot of sense and i will definitely weigh the options and hopefully will take a good decision. Once again i really thank your help.