Help in choosing screws for radiator (Note: WOOD PC Case...)

[DatGameh]

Hello, and thanks for coming.

The title says what I am basically asking for, and that note should explain why I am having a hard time for something very basic.

But before asking the real question, I want to ask: Do I use High Airflow fans for pull in a radiator setup? There's is already a push fan btw.
And are those long screws included in High Airflow fans, or are there only the short ones? The screws that came with one of my fans (I took parts from an old chassis) are the short, sharp types. So I don't really know what to expect when buying a fan.

OK. Here's the real question.
So I am thinking of putting a 240mm radiator, and the problem I face is that the panel, that is made of wood, is 2 cm thick. So I can't use screws included with the fans when I buy them since they are too short.

What kind of screws are used when mounting a radiator? The type I mean, not the length.
And are there screws of that type or something similar and still compatible (if it is the wood, sharp type, I'll just cut the tip off) that is about 4.5cm long?

Thanks!

 

[mcnumpty23]

think they are m4 screws

 

[mcnumpty23]

and ebay or other places will do them in 45mm

cant say i have seen a wooden pc case before got a picture of it?

 

[DatGameh]

think they are m4 screws

Here is a pic of my custom Chassis.

Pretty simple, but has quite a lot of features that make it what it is (e.g. notice how it's very thick?)

Here is the bottom where the radiator will be. The fan is offset, because I had to move it. Radiator compatibility issues and all.

Sadly, I can't install a 360mm radiator because of lack of space.

Also, are you sure they are M4 screws?
And are there any alternatives that are easier to find?

 

[Ralston18]

Here is a possible source:

http://www.pencomsf.com/fan-screws/fan-screws/

However, I would take one of the "too short" screws to a local hardware store or a big box lumber store and visit the hardware section.

Since you will be joining to wood you should be able to find a suitable (length, diameter, screw head, and drive ( e.g., hex, Phillips) wood screw that will work. Just remember to carefully mark and pre-drill the applicable diameter pilot holes. (And based on your photographs I know you know how to do that.)

Just out of curiousity; will you be putting any mesh over the bottom openings to keep out insects, rodents, dust bunnies, etc.?

 

[DatGameh]

Here is a possible source:

http://www.pencomsf.com/fan-screws/fan-screws/

However, I would take one of the "too short" screws to a local hardware store or a big box lumber store and visit the hardware section.

Since you will be joining to wood you should be able to find a suitable (length, diameter, screw head, and drive ( e.g., hex, Phillips) wood screw that will work. Just remember to carefully mark and pre-drill the applicable diameter pilot holes. (And based on your photographs I know you know how to do that.)

Just out of curiousity; will you be putting any mesh over the bottom openings to keep out insects, rodents, dust bunnies, etc.?

Alright, then. I'll try doing that by the weekend.
Oh, and by the way... I hired someone to do the woodwork for me. I was responsible for the design and choices. But I'll see what I can do.

And of course. But I will use a dust filter alone instead. It can easily be cut to a certain size (and taped because I am lazy), unlike a metal mesh.
And if you are wondering, components like the HDD cage and Motherboard tray are taken from another chassis. Hence, the advanced-looking Power button and ports.

 

[mcnumpty23]

looks like a nice solid piece of furniture

pretty sure they are m4 which are easy to find on ebay or if you have a decent ironmongers near you they should have them

might be called hardware store or something depending on the country you are in

 

[Ralston18]

No problem with taping per se - pragmatism versus "lazy". However, tape tends to dry and loosen/fall off. Keep an eye on things as the dust filter may drop off..... And you will soon have a computer full of dust, bugs, hair, little bits of paper. Mice even.

As for the pilot holes: what you will need to do is mark where the holes will be, drill the holes using a drill bit of the same diameter as the screw body (not the wider diameter that includes the threads).

(Note: If the cabinet is softwood, the pilot hole may be a little bit smaller. If hardwood then just slightly larger.)

Drill the hole to a depth just short of the screw length. Lubricate the screws with a little bit of soap or wax before hand tightening the screws into place. Use either a Phillips head screw (the "+" shaped slot) or hex head screw. Do not overtighten. Do by hand so you can tell how much force/torque is required. Too easy the pilot hole may be too big in diameter. Too tight, pilot hole may be too small in diameter.

Your cabinet builder may be able to suggest the correct hole sizing based on the screw you choose and the wood being used.

 

[DatGameh]

Alright!

Thanks Ralston and mcnumpty for your help.
But Ralston, what do you mean by "Drill the hole to a depth just short of the screw length"? Mounting a radiator requires screwing from the outside right? Doesn't that mean I have to drill all the way?

 

[Ralston18]

Overall, I was thinking in terms of wood screws where the tip end does not (or should not anyway) penetrate out the opposite side of the mounting surface. My vision was (from the inside out) woodscrew (inside) > radiator > wood.

When it probably should have been common screw (flush outside) > wood > radiator > washer/nut (inside). Which actually makes more sense when it comes to future maintenance and repairs.....

That said drilling all the way through is correct. If the radiator requires the screws (actually screw, washers, and nuts) going all the way through then you will need to drill all the way through. And the holes will need to be the same diameter as the threads so the screw will slide through easily but not wobble about. Be sure that the screw's length is long enough for washers/spacers and nuts. But not too long as to the point of extending into the internals too much.

Good catch - thanks.

 

[DatGameh]

Overall, I was thinking in terms of wood screws where the tip end does not (or should not anyway) penetrate out the opposite side of the mounting surface. My vision was (from the inside out) woodscrew (inside) > radiator > wood.

When it probably should have been common screw (flush outside) > wood > radiator > washer/nut (inside). Which actually makes more sense when it comes to future maintenance and repairs.....

That said drilling all the way through is correct. If the radiator requires the screws (actually screw, washers, and nuts) going all the way through then you will need to drill all the way through. And the holes will need to be the same diameter as the threads so the screw will slide through easily but not wobble about. Be sure that the screw's length is long enough for washers/spacers and nuts. But not too long as to the point of extending into the internals too much.

Good catch - thanks.

Hahaha!
I thought I had to drill through the radiator 😛

But anyways, sorry to ask (again), but being inexperienced in building PCs, what are the washers and nuts for when it comes to radiator installation? Are those for the custom/separate/DIY radiators? From what I've seen, I don't think they are required...

I could be wrong, but that's from my research, I don't really see it being needed.

But what if I use pan-headed screws instead of flushers? For accuracy as well as to prevent going to deep and having the risk of puncturing the radiator (it's easier than you think). If I'm not wrong, I'm sure flushers also have a sharp tip right?

Also, when you said "slide through easily", did you mean that the screws will still require turning, or literally "drop/slide in" easily?

This is my first experiment in making a wooden product, so I have little experience in these sort of things :/

 

[Ralston18]

Not a problem. Just tricky overall to describe....on both ends.

Is your thought from the outside screw (flusher) ----> through the wood ----> into radiator (hole)? Could be round head wood screw but flush would look neater.

More on that later.....

First of all: following the radiator's installation process is the most important consideration. Vibration control, airflows, heat conductivity, etc. must be kept in mind. Do not want things vibrating and/or being noisy.

Washers are used to increase the contact surface area of screw/bolt heads and the corresponding nuts. That reduces the chances of cracking the material or having the screw pull through the material if there is too much torque or other pull (load bearing) on the screw or bolt. Especially with softwoods or any thin materials.

With harder woods that may not be a concern depending on the diameter of the screw or bolt head and the corresponding nuts (if used) on the other side.

Let's try this: Can you post a couple of pictures of the radiator and intended mounting location. That will really help (me at least) get beyond my perhaps too narrow vision of the intended build.

However will go out on a limb a bit more as I am now seeing things.

From the inside: screw --> through mounting hole(s) in radiator ---> wood (but does not go all the way through the wood and outside of the cabinet.)

In that case you would need a wood screw that just fits through the radiator mounting hole(s) without threading itself through.

Possibly like the lower (round head) wood screw shown here:

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/type-chart.aspx

The screw length being long enough to pass through the radiator mounting hole and about 1/2 of the way into the wood's thickness.

And the mounting points (where the screws will go into the wood do need to have a pilot hole also going partially into the wood. That helps guide the screw straight in, minimizes splitting/cracking. Plus the pilot hole reduces the torque needed to drive the screw into the wood thus tightening down the radiator into place. Just snug and not jammed down.

Again a couple of pictures will help, And perhaps someone else will spot something and/or offer additional suggestions.

 

[madmatt30]

I'd use m4 bolts & nuts with washers rather than screws personally .
Drill all the way through , washer & nut on the outside.
Far far easier to get the right tension/tightness when finally fixing the rad than using a woodscrew.

 

[Ralston18]

Madmatt30: Thanks. I can see that - very viable pending an actual "look see" at the radiator and mounting area.

I tend to avoid have the threaded end, washer (may be optional) and nut on the outside (or otherwise exposed) as the tip can tend to snag or scratch things plus collect more debris. But if the installation works better doing so then washer & nut outside would be okay. Use a screw length just two or three threads longer than than needed to minimize the thread ends's sticking out. And perhaps cover the thread end with a small rubber/plastic safety cap. (Setting aside countersinking options....)

 

[madmatt30]

Madmatt30: Thanks. I can see that - very viable pending an actual "look see" at the radiator and mounting area.

I tend to avoid have the threaded end, washer (may be optional) and nut on the outside (or otherwise exposed) as the tip can tend to snag or scratch things plus collect more debris. But if the installation works better doing so then washer & nut outside would be okay. Use a screw length just two or three threads longer than than needed to minimize the thread ends's sticking out. And perhaps cover the thread end with a small rubber/plastic safety cap. (Setting aside countersinking options....)

you can get m4 nuts & countersunk sleeves which are incredibly tidy on both ends - not sure where you are or where you can source them where you are & generally Ive never seen them bigger than 78mm which may not be enough for you.

 

[Ralston18]

Really good idea!

The upper end (threaded on) is known to me as a barrel nut.

OP stated that the wood is 2 cm and I do not know what extra length would be needed to accommodate the radiator.

With any luck he may be able to purchase matched sets of the necessary length and diameter via a local hardware store or big box lumber place.

 

[DatGameh]

Just to inform you guys, but if you attempt to screw through the radiator, that will mean going through the fin stack. Thus, puncturing the piping and destroying the radiator.
So, we can't use that neat screw, MadMatt. It will actually destroy the radiator...

Also, I looked and saw that M3 radiators are also commonly used, and might be the one that I will be using instead. Do you guys know if there are any M3 screws that meet my requirements? (e.g. long, secure, compatible with wood, etc.)

 

[Ralston18]

Is your radiator something like this?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835106340&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-DIY+Cooling-_-N82E16835106340&gclid=CNXdwO3eoswCFUEfhgoddSwNaw&gclsrc=aw.ds

And you need to penetrate through the wood and then just a thread or two into the mounting holes being shown....

 

[DatGameh]

Is your radiator something like this?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835106340&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-DIY+Cooling-_-N82E16835106340&gclid=CNXdwO3eoswCFUEfhgoddSwNaw&gclsrc=aw.ds

And you need to penetrate through the wood and then just a thread or two into the mounting holes being shown....

Yep, something like that. I'm actually getting an EK Radiator, but it's pretty much the same.
I guess the screw holes are the same in AIO coolers like the ones made by Corsair. Not too sure, though.

Also, what did you mean by that last sentence?
The radiator is mounted by the fan holes themselves. Is there something I'm not understanding :s

 

[Ralston18]

The photographs show four small holes both at the top and the bottom.

The holes appear to be threaded. So the screws that would normally go through the thin metal case and then into those holes would be very short.

But you now need to go through wood and need a longer length screw to reach those holes and threads without penentrating into the fins behind. The fins that prevent having a screw go all of the way thought to a washer/nut or barrel nut.

May need a better image or the manual to see the mounting instructions.....

 

[DatGameh]

The photographs show four small holes both at the top and the bottom.

The holes appear to be threaded. So the screws that would normally go through the thin metal case and then into those holes would be very short.

But you now need to go through wood and need a longer length screw to reach those holes and threads without penentrating into the fins behind. The fins that prevent having a screw go all of the way thought to a washer/nut or barrel nut.

May need a better image or the manual to see the mounting instructions.....

But why need a washer indide the chassis? Isn't it supposed to be outside, under the head?


P.S. And sorry guys if this thread is very long. I think I should stop it at this point :/
I'm going to leave this thread without a solution, as I really didn't find a single answer that answered everything. All of you guys helped me equally.
Thanks

 

[Ralston18]

No problem.

But regarding the "washer question": Washers are used to spread out the stress and reduce the chances of bolts or screws underload from pulling through, cracking the material, etc.. Or sometimes for spacing or standoff distance. Generally washers are provided when they should be used.

However, manufacturers know that many users do not read the assembly instructions, or follow some older, obsolete installation process (not requiring washers), and so forth.

Not uncommon for manufacturer's to now recommend something but not to provide that "something". But they do provide lots of BOLD PRINT warnings so they cannot be sued.

Instructions are becoming increasingly vague - mostly just enough manufacturer "CYA" information so, once again, you cannot sue them if things go wrong.....

And products are being built in a manner that prevents anything but the "safest" use and installation. Attempting to do anything else may or may not be viable. But at least the manufacturer cannot be held accountable.

The burden is on the end user.