Question Help me decide between AM4 or AM5?

BrutalHero

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Hi,

Budget: 2000 euros.

Tasks

Gaming 1440p 70% of the time
Video Editing 5% of the time
Game Development (Unity 3D, Unreal Engine) 20% of the time
Blender / Photoshop 5% of the time

I was wondering if it was worth building an AM4 system or an AM5 with my current budget and needs.


Obviously I am asking this question because AM5 has a wide path for upgradability in the future while AM4 seems to be hitting the end of the road.
I spent some time doing my own research before asking this question but I am not sure on what my conclusion is and I need a second opinion

My AM5 CPU would be the Ryzen 7600x or 7700x (100 euro difference)
My AM4 CPU would be the Ryzen 7 5800x or 5800x3d (I can get the 5800x for 130 euro cheaper)

My main point with this build would be gaming at 1440p, also productive tasks are important as I want to continue my game development in Unity 3D and Unreal Engine.
I don't mind the amount of power that I am drawing.

Please bring me on the right path.
 

COLGeek

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You need to consider the price difference between the AM5 motherboard and DDR5 memory to go with it vice an AM4 mobo and DDR4 memory combo. The difference isn't only in the CPU.

What GPU do you intend to use this new rig?
 

BrutalHero

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You need to consider the price difference between the AM5 motherboard and DDR5 memory to go with it vice an AM4 mobo and DDR4 memory combo. The difference isn't only in the CPU.

What GPU do you intend to use this new rig?
Thanks for the response,

My GPU will either be the RTX 3080 / 3080 ti or RX 6800 XT .

Haven't decided yet.
 

DavidM012

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dun matter your budget is too low for zen 4, and Unreal Engine 5 doesn't benefit greatly from Zen 4 anyway.

The 5800x3d has a bug on Unreal Engine - dun matter your budget is only practically any use for a 5800x build.

It is otherwise too low for a Zen 4 or Zen 3 5950x build. Particularly if you want to optimize your Zen 3 Memory. There is no cheap budget of anything for what you want to do, gaming or content creation.

The days when half-life 2 was played at 720p are gone. I've cracked enough crates, cardboard boxes, paint cans and head hoppers with a crowbar to know that. Quartermaster, out.
 

Why_Me

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Hi,

Budget: 2000 euros.

Tasks

Gaming 1440p 70% of the time
Video Editing 5% of the time
Game Development (Unity 3D, Unreal Engine) 20% of the time
Blender / Photoshop 5% of the time

I was wondering if it was worth building an AM4 system or an AM5 with my current budget and needs.


Obviously I am asking this question because AM5 has a wide path for upgradability in the future while AM4 seems to be hitting the end of the road.
I spent some time doing my own research before asking this question but I am not sure on what my conclusion is and I need a second opinion

My AM5 CPU would be the Ryzen 7600x or 7700x (100 euro difference)
My AM4 CPU would be the Ryzen 7 5800x or 5800x3d (I can get the 5800x for 130 euro cheaper)

My main point with this build would be gaming at 1440p, also productive tasks are important as I want to continue my game development in Unity 3D and Unreal Engine.
I don't mind the amount of power that I am drawing.

Please bring me on the right path.
The 5800X3D is great at gaming and not so good at anything else such as photo editing. I'd look at a 5700X + B550 board or the 7700X + B650 board. The B650 boards should be hitting the shelves within a month.
 

geofelt

Titan
A modern processor like the AM5 unit should be superior for gaming.
They come with improved single thread performance.
Here is a list of cpu-Z single thread ratings.
The 7600X is right up there with the intel 12600K
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-5-7600x-review,14.html


And, you might be wise to wait and see what intel 13th gen will offer.
It is expected to be some 15% better in price/performance vs. intel 12th gen.
 
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DavidM012

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ddr 5 doesn't really impact content creation. Puget systems preferred 4000mhz.

PBO runs too hot for only marginal gains.

'One last thing we want to clarify is that this kind of auto-overclocking is not exclusive to AMD platforms. We deal with it on Intel platforms as well, in the form of MultiCore Enhancement (MCE) and unlocked short/long power limits. We are currently disabling MCE and setting the power limits on all our Intel Core 12th Gen systems and testing, and plan on doing a similar article to this one when the 13th Gen CPUs launch later this month.'.

What it translates into is paying a premium for a beefy cooler, even custom water cooling, ddr4 4000 cl15 memory, a large power supply, for 10 or 20% performance improvement and simply buying a 5950x, unless you want to be waiting for jobs to finish more than 20% of the time. I think nearer 4k. And if your budget is 4k then you'd want to be pretty thorough to know that you had purchased the best you could get for the money. Basically everything that's a headache just to do content creation. I don't think you can simply buy a gaming rig and conveniently switch to workstation tasks.

You need 4 rows of double sided 16gb for 64gb of memory to get the best memory performance boost on zen 3 according to the ram guide article when a gaming rig only really needs 16gb. Is there a goldilocks zone between zen 3, 4, and intel 12th & 13th generations? Can't spend tens of thousands on hardware to test which is preferable. Basically articles is all there is to go on. A puget systems workstation is about 3.5k for a ryzen 5700x. You can squidge a tad more into a 3.5k budget but still really need a beefier psu, case and cooler. So it's nearer 4k - if you use the optimized memory. Cutting back anything basically removes all the performance tweaks.

Their best build gaming pc 5800x3d is $3500. With 32gb 3600mhz ram. No tweaks for workstation tasks. With 64gb of fast 4000mhz ram and a 5950x you might want a 1200w or 1600w psu for multithreaded work. If you use the fast memory with the 5800x3d you remove some of the threads of the 5950x for workstation tasks. And you still might want to nudge the power supply to 1200w.

Anything less, is less. And they haven't said if they got around the 5800x3d V-Cache bug on unreal engine. So a workaround to that is a 5950x and 4000mhz memory.
 
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BrutalHero

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dun matter your budget is too low for zen 4, and Unreal Engine 5 doesn't benefit greatly from Zen 4 anyway.

The 5800x3d has a bug on Unreal Engine - dun matter your budget is only practically any use for a 5800x build.

It is otherwise too low for a Zen 4 or Zen 3 5950x build. Particularly if you want to optimize your Zen 3 Memory. There is no cheap budget of anything for what you want to do, gaming or content creation.

The days when half-life 2 was played at 720p are gone. I've cracked enough crates, cardboard boxes, paint cans and head hoppers with a crowbar to know that. Quartermaster, out.
Hi thank you for the information, I will look into my budget and get the total cost .
 

BrutalHero

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https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007625 601409023 <---- a few B650 boards although it's a US site.
Thanks for the link , it's very helpful .
The 5800X3D is great at gaming and not so good at anything else such as photo editing. I'd look at a 5700X + B550 board or the 7700X + B650 board. The B650 boards should be hitting the shelves within a month.
Great info , thank you
A modern processor like the AM5 unit should be superior for gaming.
They come with improved single thread performance.
Here is a list of cpu-Z single thread ratings.
The 7600X is right up there with the intel 12600K
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-5-7600x-review,14.html


And, you might be wise to wait and see what intel 13th gen will offer.
It is expected to be some 15% better in price/performance vs. intel 12th gen.
I am not in a rush with the build so I can for sure wiat until gen 13th comes out . Thank you
 
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DavidM012

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CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.4 GHz 16-Core Processor (€599.95 @ Azerty)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5 CFM CPU Cooler (€90.99 @ Azerty)
Motherboard: Gigabyte X570S AORUS MASTER ATX AM4 Motherboard (€412.95 @ Azerty)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) DDR4-4000 CL15 Memory (€486.07 @ Amazon )
Video Card: EVGA XC3 ULTRA GAMING iCX3 GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12 GB Video Card (€1283.95 @ Azerty)
Power Supply: SeaSonic PRIME TX 1300 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (€459.82 @ Amazon)
Total: €3333.73
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-11 21:24 CEST+0200


This is the 5950x without a case. You can't get the g.skill cas 15 memory in 64gb 4 x 16 kit only 8x 8gb which would entail a mobo that does not exist for Ryzen. Bizzarely that means whatever you do, you simply can't have 4x16gb double row dimms for the highest application boost because they don't exist. That's been looked into.

The case: Don't want to spend $3-400 for a case. What to look into? One that supports custom water loop. Well I've only ever used $30 dollar atx cases that have 4x 5.25 bays and 4x 3.5 bays 'for a desktop pc'.


What else to look into? Looking at Intel Gen 13 suddenly looks like an option since it's getting difficult to optimize the memory perfectly on Ryzen.

Unless one wishes to exhaustively search other memory manufacturers for Cas 15 4000mhz memory in 4x16gb configuration, that's also on the mobo memory support list. So that means, searching other x570 mobos qvl's too and maybe a different mobo.

Budget is definitely hovering around 4k once you factor in Custom water cooling. If however you're waiting for prices to drop, eh don't think it'll happen.
 

Why_Me

Champion
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.4 GHz 16-Core Processor (€599.95 @ Azerty)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5 CFM CPU Cooler (€90.99 @ Azerty)
Motherboard: Gigabyte X570S AORUS MASTER ATX AM4 Motherboard (€412.95 @ Azerty)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) DDR4-4000 CL15 Memory (€486.07 @ Amazon )
Video Card: EVGA XC3 ULTRA GAMING iCX3 GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12 GB Video Card (€1283.95 @ Azerty)
Power Supply: SeaSonic PRIME TX 1300 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (€459.82 @ Amazon)
Total: €3333.73
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-11 21:24 CEST+0200


This is the 5950x without a case. You can't get the g.skill cas 15 memory in 64gb 4 x 16 kit only 8x 8gb which would entail a mobo that does not exist for Ryzen. Bizzarely that means whatever you do, you simply can't have 4x16gb double row dimms for the highest application boost because they don't exist. That's been looked into.

The case: Don't want to spend $3-400 for a case. What to look into? One that supports custom water loop. Well I've only ever used $30 dollar atx cases that have 4x 5.25 bays and 4x 3.5 bays 'for a desktop pc'.

What else to look into? Looking at Intel Gen 13 suddenly looks like an option since it's getting difficult to optimize the memory perfectly on Ryzen.

Unless one wishes to exhaustively search other memory manufacturers for Cas 15 4000mhz memory in 4x16gb configuration, that's also on the mobo memory support list. So that means, searching other x570 mobos qvl's too and maybe a different mobo.

Budget is definitely hovering around 4k once you factor in Custom water cooling. If however you're waiting for prices to drop, eh don't think it'll happen.
1300W psu for a 3080 Ti?

https://azerty.nl/product/phanteks-eclipse-p400a-midtowermodel/4108348
PHANTEKS Eclipse P400A Mid Tower Case €83,35

Rear exhaust fan for that case.

https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B07GJGF56L
ARCTIC P12 PWM 120mm 4-Pin Case Fan €7,01

https://www.megekko.nl/product/4186/1061991/PC-Voedingen-PSU-/Corsair-RM850-PSU-PC-voeding
Corsair RM850 850W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply €109,00

https://www.megekko.nl/product/7953/1146089/Intel-Socket-1700-Moederborden/Gigabyte-B660-A-MASTER-DDR4
Gigabyte B660 AORUS MASTER DDR4 €209,00

https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B09MDHZ2YQ
Intel Core i7-12700F €379,00

https://azerty.nl/product/scythe-fuma-2-rev-b-koeler-voor-processor/4716371
Scythe Fuma 2 Rev. B CPU Cooler €66,89

https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
Corsair Vengeance DDR4 3600MHz 32GB (2x16GB) CL18 €114,90

https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B08GVDNTGJ
Crucial P2 2TB M.2 PCIe Gen3 NVMe Internal SSD €143,99

https://azerty.nl/product/gigabyte-geforce-rtx-3080-gaming-oc-10g-rev-2-0-lhr-videokaart/4574719
Gigabyte GeForce RTX 3080 Gaming OC 10GB Graphics Card €879,00

Total: €1992.14

https://www.megekko.nl/product/2077/915681/Monitoren/AOC-Q27G2S-EU-27-2560x1400-IPS-165Hz-FreeSync-monitor
AOC Q27G2S/EU 27",2560x1400,IPS,165Hz,FreeSync,G-Sync Compatible Gaming Monitor €299,00

https://eu.aoc.com/en/gaming/products/monitors/q27g2s-eu

A better look at those components.

https://www.phanteks.com/Eclipse-P400A.html

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B660-AORUS-MASTER-DDR4-rev-10#kf

https://www.scytheus.com/fuma2-rev-b


https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/134592/intel-core-i712700f-processor-25m-cache-up-to-4-90-ghz/specifications.html


i7 12700 / 12700F gaming benchmarks.

 
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DavidM012

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Not for the ti for the multi threading cpu though it could've been 1000w or 1200w but what if, though unlikely wanted to add another one for sli on da vinci resolve which does support it so that's a possible option anyway but why a core 12400f for content creation because those content creation apps and 3d work likes 64gb and then to get all the optimizations costs loads of money, if one can actually find the dimms or mobo in existence that supports it.

Only for gaming ok, simple for gaming and content creation only 30% of the time well doesn't that mean a fast workstation? It basically looks like 'performance optimizations' cost thousands.]

Yet, still oh why sli when the 4000 series is twice as fast as 3000 series anymore? Then you might want to wait for a 5000 series. And a Atx 3.0 power supply.
 
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Vic 40

Titan
Ambassador
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.4 GHz 16-Core Processor (€599.95 @ Azerty)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5 CFM CPU Cooler (€90.99 @ Azerty)
Motherboard: Gigabyte X570S AORUS MASTER ATX AM4 Motherboard (€412.95 @ Azerty)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) DDR4-4000 CL15 Memory (€486.07 @ Amazon )
Video Card: EVGA XC3 ULTRA GAMING iCX3 GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12 GB Video Card (€1283.95 @ Azerty)
Power Supply: SeaSonic PRIME TX 1300 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (€459.82 @ Amazon)
Total: €3333.73
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-11 21:24 CEST+0200


Are you purposely trying to find the most expensive parts?




What else to look into? Looking at Intel Gen 13 suddenly looks like an option since it's getting difficult to optimize the memory perfectly on Ryzen.
Watch,


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqhyVNPhaM
 
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DavidM012

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Am I purposely trying to get the most expensive parts? Ask the dude who wants to Create Content.

To get the best memory boost according to the Ryzen 5000 memory guide is Cas 14 3600mhz 4x Double Rank or Cas 15 4000mhz which only exists in 2x 16gb double rank form from G.Skill.

To Create Content 'fast' for only 30% of the time one imagines that a 'fast workstation' rather than a simple Gaming PC only would be necessary.

You could use cas 16 or 18 memory which is cheaper. Don't know if you'd have any success overclocking it to CAS 14. And it is very expensive to get these odd % boosts in various scenarios on software that actually responds to higher memory frequencies.

So who knows exactly what cheap dimms can actually be overclocked to perform as well as the most expensive 'performance dimms'?

Nobody knows if anyone has solved the 5800x3d v Cache bug on Unreal Engine:

'Unreal Engine is also an area where the 5800X3D struggles, but it is also the one application where it shows significant performance gains over the 5800X. It averages out to being ~6% slower than the 5800X, but that is largely due to the fact that it was a massive 43% slower than the 5800X when baking lighting. For code and shader compile, the 5800X3D was actually 5% and 18% faster than the 5800X respectively. Most likely, the issue with baking lighting is due to some sort of bug, so it is possible the 3D V-Cache in general will be able to give a nice performance boost for those working in Unreal Engine once this bug is worked out.'

I searched the Unreal Engine 5.0 site with approximately 0 hits or documentation on 5800x3d v Cache.
 

DavidM012

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Yes so it's only what PC Partpicker threw up if it can be purchased somewhere else cheaper then do so. I don't know every shop in the europe, sadly.

Still the case, and the cooling and the Really Fast content creation with 64gb of memory on a 5950x is basically around 3.5k-4k.

If they can get something else cheaper nobody's stopping them. It just might not be as fast for Content Creation and might be problematical somehow. Like software bugs.
 

Vic 40

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Forgot to put a AMD build in this myself,

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 3.7 GHz 12-Core Processor (€438.95 @ Megekko)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master MasterAir MA612 Stealth 62 CFM CPU Cooler (€58.90 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Motherboard: MSI MAG B550 TORPEDO ATX AM4 Motherboard (€129.90 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory (€119.00 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Storage: Crucial P3 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (€93.85 @ Megekko)
Video Card: Palit GamingPro GeForce RTX 3080 12GB LHR 12 GB Video Card (€800.00 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Case: Fractal Design Pop Air ATX Mid Tower Case (€97.80 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Power Supply: Corsair RM850x (2021) 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (€139.65 @ Amazon Netherlands)
Total: €1878.05
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-13 22:37 CEST+0200


without Windows that is. And a Dutch list as it seems all think OP is Dutch. Oh ..and under the €2000 limit.
 

DavidM012

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Yes that simply underscores the point that the 'performance tweaks' cost nearly 2x as much. Eg, 4000mhz memory at 64gb and perhaps a tad larger power supply to accommodate more multithreading work.

Not to mention hypothetical future GPU upgrades unless a 4000 series never happens, and Sli on the 3000 series is merely a fantasy (it's known to work in da vinci resolve).

Yes you could save money by switching down the Memory to something Cheaper and the Power supply to something less. After all that however, the 5900x technically (and the 5950x) still lag actual gaming FPS of the 5800x3d- whether it's anything noticeable, two sides to that argument too.

The best of both worlds would be the 5800x3d with 64gb of ddr4 4000 cas 15 memory. There does not appear to be any practical way to accomplish this because the memory does not seem available from G.SKill as a 4x16gb kit and the 5800x3d takes a 43% performance hit on unreal engine 4.2.6 when 'baking lighting'.

If it were simply a gaming Rig, no probs, apparently the 5800x3d is top of the charts if that's what you want whether it's pointless or not. Content creation, well more is always better.
 

domjam

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I cant speak for a total system, but as far as cpu motherboard and ram.

I think AM5 is the way to go as it gives you an upgrade path. anything els there is no option for future upgrading. I think 64 gb is total over kill.

i would wait for raptor lake and the lower end boards for am5 as hopefully prices will go down.

go with a 7600x and either 2x16 5600mhz DDR5 ram (currently for under 100) and go with a nice cooler. (The Bequite loop 2 FX is just over £100).
 

DavidM012

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Best PC for Unreal Engine

Blog:

The AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core should be your choice of CPU if you're into the other side of development like animation and modeling. Also, you need 64GB DDR4 RAM and an NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 24GB video card.

The Cheaper version:

Cgidirector - you're all good with 16gbytes

The point is that there is a lo, mid, and hi end for it and since we're inexperienced content creators who want to be rendering 20% of the time one presumes that one wants it to render fast rather than middle or slow.

There isn't really 'much' middle ground between the lo-end and the hi end. The low end is cheap and easy and will game OK and the high end is simply 2x the cost especially if you go water cooling to have PBO on a Zen 4 for a 10% boost - and anything over DDR5-4000 doesn't impact unreal engine performance. Puget systems preferred 4000mhz. 4800mhz ddr5 was unstable and resulted in bsods.

So while the system might be perfect for gaming you'd have to still switch off PBO and underclock your memory and reconfigure every time you want to use unreal engine.

That being so why not simply opt for the DDR4-4000 overclock on Zen 3 to max out what it can do and if it weren't for the 5800x3d baking lighting bug it would have been the best balance between both worlds.

A 5950x or 5900x doesn't quite have the same FPS for gaming so technically you can't do both tasks perfectly without running into the Unreal Vcache bug and taking a 43% performance hit when 'baking lighting' which more or less means probably waiting for jobs to complete more than 20% of the time.

Going around the bug with the 5900x or 5950x is more expensive but you get more threads so multithreaded work will complete faster even if you don't use it often.

At least science can borrow your spare threads when you aren't using them to run crowdsource apps.

...a shadowy flight into the dangerous world of a content creation system whose ddr4-4000 4x16gb cas 15 dimms - do not exist. Durn de durn durn dun dun.

Anyway hasn't anyone thought that in content creation you have to basically re-invent everything like if you want a virtual cardboard box you have to actually study the physx of a cardbox box and how it bends and creases and how the light falls on it and whether it collapses realistically when you hit it with a crowbar and when you really look at the credits roll of major titles it was engineered by a lot of people.

I think there was one called 'prey' (2006) which was done by a single developer who promised a sequel which never materialized.

And when you really think about the gfx we 'experienced' it was still all kinda goofy - like the zombie blood in hl2 didn't really splash, there were indestructible light bulbs, and the paint splashing wasn't really 'realistic' but you know the old original half life and games of that era were still pretty much best sellers.

There's that lo-mid-hi range again - how much trouble is it worth to render objects in a scene that require a certain level of realism or representation because in fact what we put up with in pc games is generally quite simplistic but still probably quite complex to program.

So if you put all your effort into realistic water or something - well that's about 1% of the scene. So then you have these engines to generate stuff from templates- not all that original because in any case studios just invented what they wanted with team of engineers since the 70's.

The idea that it's all shrink wrapped in a pre-programmed app dunno if it does everything you want. People still like to play quake for example - but nobody's done 'quake remastered in hd'. Well they did kind of but not 'reinvented' it. They just made the picture cleaner but it still has all the same goofy effects. Sometimes you just can't do anything because of licensing and while you could do all sorts of stuff for fun, stuff that's going to be original and marketable is a different ball game. Strictly speaking there is no subject that Sci Fi or any Fi has not re-hashed in some form or another multiple times over.

You played alien isolation? They brought back Ripley in the form of Daughter and in the end, jettisoned her into space in a eva suit and left no sequel. The fx were goofy - you got a blow torch and gadget to open doors, and you 'forgot' your silenced pistol when entering into an emergency situation aboard a remote space station.

You have to think in stupid to do things like that because, for reasons unknown to science, stupid works and manages to sell stuff.
 
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