[SOLVED] Help with 3950x ram choice please...

Nucl3ar

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Hey all building my first system in like 15yrs and would like to get back into Overclocking. The system will be used for pretty much everything (gaming, streaming, video editing), so I'll be looking for the best stable performance I can get. I'll looking at a couple different options to go with my build so I'll list those, and then the full specs below that....

G.Skill Trident Z Royal 2 x (2x16) 3600 Cas 16 16-16-36 B-Die
G.Skill Trident Z Royal 4x16 3600 16 16-16-36 B-Die
G.Skill Trident Z Royal 4x16 3600 16-19-19-39

3950x
Asus Crosshair 8 Hero x570
Gigabyte 2080 ti Aorus Master
Nzxt x73

Really just wondering how much more I'll get outta the B-Die chips, and if choosing two 2x16 sets over a 4x16 matched set will make much of a difference? Been outta the loop since the old Athlon XP days, so I'm excited to get back into it.

Thanks in advance for any input.
 
Solution
You should wait. You get no guarantees if you buy two separate kits and if they don't play nice together, but work individually, you have no recourse because memory manufacturers NEVER guarantee that mixed kits, even when they are the EXACT same part number, will work together. They DO guarantee them if all the memory came in a single kit, and so long as the memory is listed as compatible on either their own compatibility list (G.Skill has RAM configurator and Corsair has Corsair memory finder. Others may or may not have similar compatibility listings) or the motherboard QVL list. The QVL lists are always barely inclusive and only list a very few tested models.

The memory manufacturer compatibility lists are generally ALL inclusive and...
I'd first consider a different board. I know of at least three people who've had their Crosshair Hero VIII boards die early deaths, even without overclocking, and then had to deal with ridiculous idiocy in getting them replaced. And that was BEFORE the Covid 19 situation. One of them was sent a used replacement with a corner of the rear I/O cover broken off which ASUS refused to replace. I used to be an avid, vociferous ASUS loyalist but things I've seen over the last year or two have pretty much changed that. They've gotten to be the fat cat that is too sure of itself to be bothered with keeping the peons happy anymore.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-rog-crosshair-viii-hero-wifi/14.html


I'd consider one of these boards instead, and unless you actually NEED the benefit of additional M.2 slots, you could do a lot worse than the Tomahawk Max, which would free up some money to put towards a better memory kit. Something in a 3600mh CL14 would make for a very snappy system indeed.


Besides which, there really is not much room for overclocking on 3rd Gen Ryzen anyhow, and the higher you go with your CPU selection, the less room there is likely to be left remaining by AMD for any overclocking of that silicon. They are already squeezing out everything they can for the most part. You MIGHT be able to eek out a few extra all core Mhz, but a lot of people have found that they are already at the edge of what's achievable on those CPUs even with the stock core boost behavior profile.
 
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Nucl3ar

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First off thank you very much for the reply. I also back in the day had a high standing for Asus and hearing this defiantly does raise some flags for sure. My next go to back in the day was Gigabyte and really the only other board I've been looking at is the Aorus Master as both boards fit into my cosmetic theme. I'm going to be running two m.2 drives so the third on the gigabyte really isn't needed unless I decide to raid 0 my game/editing drive. I liked both these boards as they have decent stock vrm cooling to go with the looks I want, and really was choosing the Asus over the Giga because I like the I/O usb options more.

With regards to the chip I had read that the 3950/3900 were binned from the same chips and the 3950's got the better ones, and should overclock better. I was originally going with the 3900x but decided as I can fit the 3950x I might as well and not have any buyers remorse in the future.

Will I get any better results using a 4x16 kit over two 2x16? I'm sure it will give better chances of them performing on the same level, just wondering how much more.

I'm fully aware this system is way overkill for what I'm probably gonna need, but I'm excusing it as a long overdue treat to myself. I'm nearing retirement age and just suffered a Ruptured Achilles so my sporting career is done now for good. So this replaces the sorrow I've been going through with this rehab.
 
So, ESPECIALLY on this Ryzen platform but in general on any non-HEDT platform that does not have a quad or higher multiple memory architecture, the more DIMMs you run the less likely it becomes that you will be able to run it all at the advertised speed without problems. If you can get the full amount of memory you want to run using two DIMMs, then you want to do that.

It's less stress on the memory controller for both AMD and Intel, and especially on these AMD platforms it greatly increases the probability that you'll be able to run at full speed. They specifically outline inability to run at full speed once you start going past four DIMMs above certain speeds, and that is dependent on which generation of Ryzen CPU and which chipset you are running.

I'd stick to two DIMMs if it were me, unless you can't get the full amount of memory you want to run with only two DIMMs.

Gigabyte was also my second choice for a long time. I have MANY ASUS and Gigabyte boards around here, in fact the board in my current rig, which is about five years old (6700k) is a Hero VIII, but I will not be going with them when I upgrade the platform (Presumably when the 4th Gen Ryzen CPUs are released). I will not be going with Gigabyte either as they've been dropping in quality IMO the last couple of generations as well.

I have, in the past, generally not looked favorably on MSI because they tended to have a lot of quality control issues and some poor design choices on their motherboards but the last three years has seen a major turn around in that regard, especially on their mid to high end boards. I still wouldn't buy ANY "budget" enthusiast chipset motherboard from them. The Tomahawk/Max and Gaming Pro Carbon are the best of the B450 boards you can get without spending a ton of money, and then all you are really getting extra is maybe an extra PCI slot or two, an extra M.2 slot or two and maybe an extra SATA header or two, plus possibly depending on the board, an extra power phase or two. None of which generally make a lot of difference for an overclocking board, aside from the power phase, but clearly the power phase on the Tomahawk and Pro carbon are exceptionally good because they obviously are able to handle the highest core count and TDP CPU from the platform without problems.

But I understand the lack of M.2 and color scheme. I'll be honest as well, I've seen some niggling problems emerging on some of the Gigabyte X570 boards like the Elite, and my advice would be to avoid that. I can also understand wanting X570 for PCIe 4.0 capability if you're going to run multiple M.2 drives AND if you're going to make sure that you choose PCIe 4.0 NVME drives, otherwise, X570 is pointless and I'd wait to see what the B550 boards have to offer which should be coming very soon.

What kind of sports were you involved with?
 

Nucl3ar

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I play Basketball and at my age 46 (47 this summer), and the fact in the last six years I've had both knee's scoped and now this ruptured Achilles it's time to hang em up. The fact I still play like I'm 20 and a competitive drive that doesn't allow me to slow down hasn't helped either. Been a gamer all my life so it's an easy fallback plan. Since I lost everything when the apartment building I lived in in 2005 burnt down I haven't gotten back to the system building, or tweaking.

So beyond gaming I plan on starting to do a lot more hiking to keep active, and record some 4k scenery vids. As I'd like to be able to game/stream and render a video to save time I decided to go with 64gb or ram. I'd also like the base of this system to last me 3-4yrs so it's not going to hurt. Both m.2 drives are Gen 4 yes I'm going with the Sabarent's.
 

Nucl3ar

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Haha oh don't worry I have and his vid on the Asus line specifically. Really my main concern atm is if I should wait for the 4x16 kit I want to get back into stock, or just buy two of the same in 2x16.

Oh and I do plan on water cooling a few months down the road.

This is worth watching. You may come back around to the Crosshair Hero, but personally I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a board unless it was for a custom loop and the board came preconfigured for open loop cooling with mono block etc.

 
You should wait. You get no guarantees if you buy two separate kits and if they don't play nice together, but work individually, you have no recourse because memory manufacturers NEVER guarantee that mixed kits, even when they are the EXACT same part number, will work together. They DO guarantee them if all the memory came in a single kit, and so long as the memory is listed as compatible on either their own compatibility list (G.Skill has RAM configurator and Corsair has Corsair memory finder. Others may or may not have similar compatibility listings) or the motherboard QVL list. The QVL lists are always barely inclusive and only list a very few tested models.

The memory manufacturer compatibility lists are generally ALL inclusive and include any memory that has been validated for a given motherboard.

There are good reasons for this, and I'll offer you a few of them.

The odd man out, (Or, mixed memory)


While memory modules that did not come together in a matched set that was tested by the manufacturer to be compatible, certainly CAN still work together, often it does not. Right up front I'll tell you that if you are trying to get sticks to work in the same machine together that were purchased separately, even if they are otherwise identical according to the kit or model number or if they would seem to have identical timings and voltage requirements, there is a very good chance that you simply will not be able to do that. There is also a pretty fair chance that you might be able to if you are willing to take your time, listen to and understand what you are being told and follow the steps necessary to determining if they will "play nice" or not.

The exception in most cases will be that if the memory from both sets are the same speed and timings and both kits are within the JEDEC specifications for the default speed on that platform, so for example, 2666mhz on the latest Intel Z390 platform, 2133mhz on Ryzen first and second Gen platforms, then they stand a much better chance of working together but if they are higher speed kits the chances begin to diminish from what they might be at the low speed and loose timings end of the scale.

A word of advice. If you just purchased this memory, and for whatever reason you bought two separate sticks of the same memory instead of buying them together in a matched set, see if you can return them for a refund or credit towards buying a similar or same set of matched sticks that come together in a kit. It is ALWAYS better to have matched modules because from brand to brand, or even within the same brand, in fact, even when the part numbers are IDENTICAL, there can be anything from simply slightly different memory chips that were sourced from different bins at the end or beginning of a production run to entirely different configurations altogether even though the model numbers seem to be the same. Some manufacturers even reuse model numbers when they discontinue a product. Point being, memory is only the same for sure when all sticks came out of the same blister pack or packaging and were sold as a tested kit.

In order to determine if differences in the memory, or a need for increased voltage when using more than one stick (Especially if you are running three or more sticks) are responsible for the problems you are having you will always want to begin your troubleshooting process by attempting to boot the machine with only a single stick of memory installed. Also, for practically every consumer motherboard that's been sold since at least as far back as about 2014, the A2 memory slot which is the second slot over from the CPU socket, is THE slot that is most commonly designated for the installation of a single memory module. Slots A2 and B2 are almost always the slots specified in the motherboard memory population rules for use with two modules. If you need to install a third module I have no opinion on which of the remaining slots to use for that, but typically since the A1 slot is right next to the CPU socket and often interferes with the CPU cooler or fan, I'd say the B1 slot was probably just as good.

Honestly, I don't ever recommend that you HAVE three modules installed anyhow. Using memory in pairs is almost always a better option, except on boards that support triple channel memory population, so that normal dual channel operation will occur. And that's another thing. When it comes to memory there are no "single channel" or "dual channel" memory modules. There are ONLY memory modules and the motherboard and CPU architecture will determine whether or not dual, triple or quad channel operation is possible based on the architecture and how many modules are in use. Occasionally though there are situations where it might make sense to run three modules and some boards CAN use three modules in a FLEX type mode where two of the modules will operate in dual channel while the third oddball module will run in single channel. I'd avoid oddball configurations though if possible because many motherboards will simply run ALL modules in single channel mode when an odd number of modules are installed.



If you think you will ever need 16GB of memory, then buy 16GB of memory from the start so you can get it all in a matched set that has been tested,
and eliminate a lot of problems right from the start.



And also, some empirical evidence of why using identical part numbers does not guarantee same model sticks will necessarily work together:

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/amd-ram-compatibility.3210050/#post-19785792
 
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Nucl3ar

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A ton of great info here I once again thank you greatly. I was actually told by a system builder that if I wanted 64gb but could only afford 32 atm just to grab that and add the additional later. Both kits the 2x16 and 4x16 are G.Skill Royal 16-16-16-36 B-Die. The 64gb kit has been sold out for 10days so far why I've thought about grabbing the two separate. I get really stuck on the price/gb ratio when I'm shopping as I always want the best for my money. I was also looking at a 4x8gb 3600 cas 14 set that was cheaper, but also half the total memory and about $5/gb more.

Again ideally I would want to go with stock 3600 rather then going with 3200 correct?
 
That is probably a fine choice. The different between the CL14 and CL16 kits exists, but it's not staggering. You would probably not personally notice it much except on synthetic benchmarks to be honest.

Yes, the B-die kits are worth the money because they are exceptional and the Samsung ICs are highly compatible, high performance parts, but it's definitely not going to even give you the kind of difference that a 200mhz CPU overclock would provide, so in reality, while beneficial to overclockers and a big "why not" for people who have the money to throw around, they are definitely not essential.

I like getting the lowest latency memory I can for whatever speed I am targeting, but I would certainly not pay an additional 200 bucks for it, even on a four DIMM kit. That's an extra 50 bucks per DIMM, which is hard to justify. That 200 bucks would be better spend on a higher end CPU, better motherboard or put towards the cooling solution, for most people. If you've got the funds and it really doesn't put a dent in your style to do it, then it 's a nice to have.
 
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Nucl3ar

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So are you saying if I was to go with two separate (similar) kits I would have a better chance of them cooperating with B-die?

I kinda leaning towards the non B-die 4x16 kit and call it a day. Who knows I might be able to get the timings to the stock levels of the B-die kit.
 
No, I'm saying that a B-die kit has a lot more room for tightening the timings further and for overclocking, and for being compatible with practically any motherboard you want to use it in. But there are STILL potential compatibility issues between kits if they came from different production runs. Other things on the module might be different enough to cause issues, things OTHER than the ICs, which is all the "B-die" represents is what kind of IC's (memory chips) are used on the module and in the case of B-die they are high end Samsung memory chips.

My point was, if you plan to overclock the memory, and by that I mean BEYOND the XMP profile advertised speed that they are intended to be run at, or if you intend to try to tighten down the primary and secondary memory timings further even than the very tight timings most B-die modules come with, then they are a good choice.

Otherwise, go with a non-B-die kit that comes with all the memory you need together. Well, get it all together no matter what kit you get really, but yes, save two hundred bucks.

Are you going to go with the Crosshair Hero VIII or a different board? Really, that should be about 75% of the determining factor of which memory modules you decide to go with because you absolutely want to use a memory kit that is, not preselected, but selected from what is proven to already have been validated for that motherboard BY the memory manufacturer. Their word is stronger than the motherboard manufacturer pretty much in every case.

Motherboard manufacturer can point at the memory manufacturer and say "We never said this memory was compatible" but memory manufacturers don't want to get caught with their pants down if they say a given kit WILL work with a given board, so they make damn sure that their compatibility lists are very accurate.
 
Expensive, but good, and fast. Unless you REALLY want the RGB on the RAM, these would be a very good choice. I can't see paying an extra 90 bucks just for RGB on the memory, but then again, if you're already paying over five hundred bucks just for RAM, maybe it's a drop in the bucket.

PCPartPicker Part List

Motherboard: Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero ATX AM4 Motherboard ($359.99 @ Best Buy)
Memory: G.Skill Trident Z 64 GB (4 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($519.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $879.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-05-06 16:08 EDT-0400
 
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Nucl3ar

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For sure that is very nice ram but yeah kinda stuck with going for the "rainbow vomit" look as I've seen it referenced as that lately. But the good news is I found the ram I was looking for! It's listed as a special order but have already reached out to them to make sure it's actually avaliable. I did look at the Neo version similar to the TridentZ you posted which is about $50 more. Thank you for helping give me different ways to look at this.
 
For sure man. Glad to help, in whatever way I can. Sometimes having multiple perspectives is all that is needed and sometimes that results in "yeah, I like that idea" but other times it results in "now that I've seen the options more clearly, I'm less reserved about the option I was looking at from the start". And both can be perfectly fine resolutions.
 

Nucl3ar

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Yeah I figure it's looking like x570 is gonna support Ryzen 4000 I can upgrade that way, and the $300 I saved on the 3950x I upgraded one of my m.2's to 2tb from 1tb and put the rest in my pocket. So the full build is this...

3900x
Asus Crosshair Hero 8
G.Skill Royal 3600 4x16 16-16-16
Gigabyte 2080 ti Aorus Master
Sabrent Rocket 4.0 1tb and 2tb
Toshiba x300 5tb
Nzxt x73
O11 D XL
Corsair 850w psu
Corsair QL fans
 
Let me ask you a question. I'm sure you have a good reason why and that's fine but I have to throw this out there. Is there a SPECIFIC reason you have chosen Gigabyte for the graphics card?

I'll say clearly, and shout it out for any detractors to disagree with, that when it comes to Nvidia based cards, EVGA runs the table, hands down, in terms of component quality and customer service after the sale. The XC Ultra gaming and FTW3 cards are practically unmatched and are among some of the only binned models out there. Their customer service is undeniably superior to any other hardware manufacturer, bar none, and they are the ONLY graphics card (Or any kind of hardware for that matter) manufacturer that will allow you to add additional years of warranty on for practically nothing compared to the cost of the cards.

For any graphics card over 500 bucks it's 30 bucks to add two additional years onto the warranty or 60 bucks to add seven additional years, and they are the only manufacturer that will allow you to pass that warranty on to the buyer if you decide to sell that card to somebody else prior to the warranty expiration, so it actually adds some real value to the purchase as well.

The rest looks pretty decent. Not sure about the QL fans though. If I was going to buy ANY Corsair fans, they'd likely be their non-RGB Maglev lineup, but I primarily stick to Noctua (Especially now that they have black versions of all their most popular fan models) or Thermalright for the most part. Obviously though, the choice between pure performance and aesthetics is something that each person has to make for themselves and not everybody has the same priorities by a long shot. LOL.
 

Karadjgne

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Nope. 2x32Gb.

Ryzens have serious issues getting 4x DIMMs to run xmp speeds. Generally the best 4x kits might get 3200MHz with some tweeking on the single rank chipsets like the B-die, more often get 2933MHz at best with dual rank chipsets

I believe the Royals come with dummy ram to complete the look as far as rgb goes.

Unless you want to start manually digging into timings and decoupling the infinity fabric from the ram and setting the buss speed manually, stick with 3600MHz C16 at top, Ryzen switches from a 1:1 buss ratio to a 2:1 buss ratio at 3733MHz, effectively cutting speeds in half.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcgamesn.com/amd/ryzen-3000-memory-overclocking-sweet-spot?amp

For gpus, Evga. It's not even a question or consideration.
 
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Most users simply can't get a four DIMM set of sticks above 2933mhz to work, even on X570 with a Ryzen 3000 series CPU. This is really nothing new though. Trying to overclock a 2 DIMM kit or tighten the timings, is MUCH easier than with a four DIMM kit, on ANY dual channel platform. In fact, in many cases with four DIMMs you, again, simply can't. I can run two of my 3000mhz CL15 sticks at CL13, or at 3200mhz with CL14, no problem. With four DIMMs, I can't deviate from the XMP profile speed or timings, AT ALL, without problems.

And I'm on Z170 with a 6700k, which is a lot more forgiving than any of the Ryzen chipsets and CPUs. It wouldn't be worth the headache.
 
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Nucl3ar

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Let me ask you a question. I'm sure you have a good reason why and that's fine but I have to throw this out there. Is there a SPECIFIC reason you have chosen Gigabyte for the graphics card?

I'll say clearly, and shout it out for any detractors to disagree with, that when it comes to Nvidia based cards, EVGA runs the table, hands down, in terms of component quality and customer service after the sale. The XC Ultra gaming and FTW3 cards are practically unmatched and are among some of the only binned models out there. Their customer service is undeniably superior to any other hardware manufacturer, bar none, and they are the ONLY graphics card (Or any kind of hardware for that matter) manufacturer that will allow you to add additional years of warranty on for practically nothing compared to the cost of the cards.

For any graphics card over 500 bucks it's 30 bucks to add two additional years onto the warranty or 60 bucks to add seven additional years, and they are the only manufacturer that will allow you to pass that warranty on to the buyer if you decide to sell that card to somebody else prior to the warranty expiration, so it actually adds some real value to the purchase as well.

The rest looks pretty decent. Not sure about the QL fans though. If I was going to buy ANY Corsair fans, they'd likely be their non-RGB Maglev lineup, but I primarily stick to Noctua (Especially now that they have black versions of all their most popular fan models) or Thermalright for the most part. Obviously though, the choice between pure performance and aesthetics is something that each person has to make for themselves and not everybody has the same priorities by a long shot. LOL.

Hey sorry for the late reply I've had some personal things to deal with and shut out the internet world for a bit. I choose the Gigabyte for a few reasons. Firstly ever since I started into the PC modding world some 20yrs ago I have always had good luck using their mb's and gpu's. Even to this day my current system has been running strong for 6yrs on a Giga mobo, and duel 970's. Secondly the price/aesthetics ratio was key for me. As they'll all perform pretty close to the same I choose this card as I'm vertical mounting it, and like the rgb effects this card has. As you probably have noticed I actually like the Rainbow Vomit look, and am trying to get the best perfomance to aesthetic ratio I can. Everything is now bought and paid for just the waiting game for everything to ship. Can't wait to share my performance results!