Home pc biuld for CAD, SOME GAMING AND GENERAL USE

[JC4]

Hi I'm an engineering student working on assembling my own computer that's CAD capable with minimum gaming. I've been reading all sorts of stuff online, but I don't I can do this on my own. I'm going to be using these programs SolidWorks, Inventor and AutoCAD. I'm not gonna do much heavy gaming. Mostly play a few games like the new elder scrolls or skyrim. As well as games like battlefield 4 and newer. I probably wont play the games with maxed out graphics, just high enough that it looks good. I would like to be able to eventually support upto three monitors. Maybe 4K or some where up there, basically a nice HD display. I haven't looked at displays yet. I'll probably hook it up in the mean time to my 40'' Sony lcd, I think it's 120hz 1080p, not 60hz. Even though I wont have a CAD program and a game running at the same time I will be multitasking using the internet, listening to music and probably using Microsoft Office. Now, as for my budget I'm trying to keep it around $1500 or less if possible, but if necessary to meet my demands I'll sacrifice $2000. Also I already bought this case, Cooler Master HAF XB EVO. This is the only case I found that was like a block that supports ATX. I don't really want a high tower. I guess I'll use Windows 8 for the OS. Even though I would like to use a Mac OS and make it a hachintosh, but that's another dream.

Thanks for any help it's really appreciated.

I've read a few articles like these and if anyone could give more knowledge or suggestions that would be nice.
http://blog.grabcad.com/blog/2011/07/12/how-to-build-a-faster-3d-cad-pc/
http://www.studica.com/blog/building-a-cad-computer
http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/how-configure-a-workstation-cad-14058

 

[JC4]

Sorry I should've put the template. Let me know if anything else is required.
Approximate Purchase Date: before the end of January

Budget Range: prefer$1500 or less

System Usage from Most to Least Important:
Are you buying a monitor: eventually



Parts to Upgrade:
Do you need to buy OS: Yes




Location:California

Parts Preferences:
Overclocking: Maybe

SLI or Crossfire: Yes

Your Monitor Resolution: whatever is recommended.

 

[mdocod]

Solidworks and AutoDesk CAD applications are still pretty much entirely single threaded programs (unless something has changed recently). View-port performance can be adjusted to be very acceptable in these applications on relatively modest GPUs but workstation GPUs are recommended to reduce viewport errors. ECC system memory is always advised for workstation use but isn't absolutely a requirement.

Believe it or not, an i3-4360 + K2200 will make a really nice CAD workstation, and can be done well under $1000 in a small profile case... There isn't actually much useful performance scaling beyond this type of build for CAD work. More cores, bigger GPUs, more GPUs, nada. This is a good and bad thing..

Since you're on track both size and budget wise for something more powerful, I'll offer some ideas to get you rolling:

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C612 build:

CPU: E5-1620V3 ~$300
MOBO: Supermicro X10SRA-F ~$300
RAM: 2 X M393A1G40DB0-CPB (or equivalent from Micron/Crucial/Hynix/Kingston) ~$250
GPU: K2200 ~$440 or [strike]W5000[/strike] W5100 ~$350
SSD: 256GB Plextor M6 Pro ~$150
Storage: Western Digital WD1002F9YZ ~$100
PSU: Antec HCP-750 ~$135
HSF: SilverStone AR01 ~$35

That's ~$1700-1800 with OS.

Nice thing about this build is that it's on the latest, very new Intel server/workstation platform. The build above currently supports an upgrade path to up to 18 core CPU's (this may eventually expand to 24 or more with future CPU releases), and with the PSU selected, up to 2X high end GPUs (more with a bigger PSU), and of course, up to 512GB of ECC/registered system memory. At this time, neither the CPU or GPU upgrade paths are of any use for your intended workload, however, if the software changes in the coming years you'll already be on the best platform to adjust to those changes. This is going to be the high end platform for probably the next 3-5 years, so this is potentially a long-term investment both for current studies and for work afterwards.

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Alternative C226 build:

CPU: E3-1271V3 ~$300
MOBO: ASRock Rack C226 WS+ ~$250
RAM: 2 X M391B1G73QH0-YK0 (or equivalent from Micron/Crucial/Hynix/Kingston) ~$170
GPU: K2200 ~$440 or [strike]W5000[/strike] W5100 ~$350
SSD: 256GB Plextor M6 Pro ~$150
Storage: Western Digital WD1002F9YZ ~$100
PSU: Antec HCP-750 ~$135
HSF: Arctic i11 ~$25

This one is more like ~$1550-1650 with OS.

Performance wise this is basically the same as the build above, possibly even fractionally better due to the higher clocked CPU. The C226 platform will save the build about $150 from slightly lower RAM and MOBO costs. The tradeoff here is a huge loss in upgrade path. While this build can support a move to multiple GPUs, there is no useful CPU upgrade path here, the quad core on this platform is the top of the line, wheras on the C612 chipset build above, the quad core is the entry point. Also, this build supports ECC, but not registered memory, so the maximum memory supported is 32GB


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The K2200 will perform a little better in AutoCAD, while the W5000 will perform a little better in SolidWorks and Iventor. The W5000 is probably the better value here but either way works fine. The price/performance scaling above this level of GPU for CAD work is going to be a tough sell IMO. The W7000 costs nearly double, and would only improve viewport performance in these applications by ~10-20%.

The K2200 will run games about on par with a GTX750, while the W5000 will run games about on par with an R7 260. Nothing special but acceptable for a primarily non-gaming rig.

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Most of the hardware enthusiasts at TomsHardware do not maintain familiarity with server and workstation grade hardware. I do. You will likely get build recommendations for Z97 and X99 from other members. These builds will not support ECC memory and will be better suited to gaming and performance tuning than the builds I have proposed. From a performance only perspective, an overclocked i5 would actually out-perform both of the builds I have proposed in many CAD applications and games and could be implemented for less money. I'm offering the "most professional" type of build focused on quality and compute accuracy, but that may not be what you are interested in.

 

[JC4]

Thanks a whole lot. These builds you offered then are more suited for heavy or pure CAD working, but they'll do just fine with gaming and multitasking? I have noticed most people in forums know more about building computers for gaming, music, videos and basically entertainment related PCs. I've read a couple of articles on "building your own pc" and posts from other people, but there's mostly mentioning on the good parts. Not so much on showing how to determine what's required and compatible. Like, let's say a person has a list of parts, but doesn't know how many Watts they'll need. Usually people just specify a range for them. Also, people will just mention here's a good board for gaming, GPU or CPU, but not really what to look for. I don't know unless I just need to read more. So this is the mobo http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=Supermicro+X10SRA-F+&N=-1&isNodeId=1? It seems this is very future proof and yeah I doubt I'll need a 18 core CPU or 512 GB of ram. I take it the Xeon processors are more for workstations then?

 

[mdocod]

Knowing how many watts a system needs is something that an experienced hardware researcher, tester, and system builder like myself can calculate for a given hardware configuration. The system configurations listed above could be run on a 360W Seasonic G without incident. The PSU that I have chosen to include in the builds above was selected more for quality reasons than wattage reasons. The idea being, that if you're going to build something with a $300 enterprise grade motherboard, the caliber of PSU in that build aught to be in the same class, thus, I chose a premium PSU OEMed by Delta, who is pretty much the finest PSU manufacture in the world. The size (750W) would accommodate a wide range of possible upgrade paths without restraint (comfortable up to 2 flagship GPUs).

I have yet to see anyone here on Tom's hardware demonstrate the ability to estimate or calculate peak power dissipation of a system accurately, so I think you would be well suited to assume that most recommendations for PSU size are based on instinctual conjecture. (from the hip, guesswork).

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A great gaming CPU, is one that offers an arrangement of execution resources that is well suited to real-time workloads. Luckily for you, the same arrangements of execution resources that work great in CAD also work great in gaming. (focus is primarily on core performance, followed by core count). The E5 and E3 chips I have suggested above will offer about the same performance in gaming that you would get from an i7-4770.

A great gaming GPU is a bit more subjective, as really any modern architecture Gefore or Radeon around $100 or more can play any game with great FPS performance. The difference between the $100 gaming GPU and the $500 GPU will manifest as differences in visual quality. Bigger better GPUs can be used at higher resolutions with higher visual quality settings while still maintaining good FPS.

Workstation GPUs are actually built on the same hardware architecture as gaming GPUs, unfortunately, the price premium for their support of professional applications is steep. A $400 workstation GPU is comparable to a $100 gaming GPU.

The E3/E5 CPU's I've advised combined with say, the W5000, will play games on par with an i7-4770 + R7 260, which means you'll be able to play any game at fantastic smooth FPS (even highly compute intensive games), but will have to run relatively low visual quality settings (720P with medium/high settings or 1080P with low-medium in modern games).

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The name "Xeon" is more of a marketing distinction than a technological one. E3 V3 and E5 V3 leverage the same core architecture as you would find in a Haswell Celeron, Pentium, i3, i5, i7 etc....

The C226 chipset is built on the 1150 socket platform, same as the mainstream H97/Z97 chipsets. E3 V3 Xeons are typically interchangeable with Core series CPUs from the same platform. (we can use an E3 on an H97 board, or an i3/i5/i7 on a C226 board, it works either way). However, in order to support ECC memory, we have to be using a Xeon on the C226 chipset. The consumer series products on this platform do not support ECC memory.

The C612 is built on the 2011-3 socket platform, same as the enthusiast X99 chipset. The E5 V3 Xeons are in most cases interchangeable with the i7-5000 series marketed to enthusiasts and non-professionals. However, here again, we have to use the enterprise versions of these products to enable ECC memory support.

 

[JC4]

Thanks a lot for expanding on your suggestions. I do like that the Supermicro X10SRA-F Motherboard will last a couple a years. So is it required or highly recommended to use ECC ram then, for CAD work? Would it be ok with out it? How about a 6-core CPU like this one Intel Core i7-5820K Haswell-E 6-Core 3.3GHz LGA 2011-v3 140W? Or, do these quad-core CPUs perform close enough?

 

[JC4]

Sorry if I'm asking to many questions by the way. I'm slowly reading stuff and trying to know the parts I'm going to need.

 

[mdocod]

Not a problem at all....

The E5-1620 v3 and i7-5820K will have basically the same performance in most engineering CAD software as both have the same architecture cores clocked to similar speeds. The Extra cores of the 5820K will scale performance beyond that of the E5-1620 v3 in workloads that are more parallel, like rendering a 3D animation scene or transcoding video or compiling software.

Key differences:

i7-5820K: non-ECC UDIMMS only. Maximum 64GB Memory. 28 PCIE lanes. 6 cores, 3.3ghz w/3.6ghz turbo. Overclockable (not recommended for productivity, especially CAD) ~$375

E5-1620 v3 : ECC RDIMM memory support. Maximum 256-768GB Memory (depending on board support and available RDIMM density). 40 PCIE lanes, 4 cores, 3.5ghz w/3.6ghz turbo. (probably not overclock-able on C612 chipset) ~$300.

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ECC is not a requirement, but is highly recommended for this type of build. If you decide you don't want ECC memory, then you'll probably get more for your money with an X99 board and the 5820K, as there are lots of great boards under $300 to choose from. Stock clocked Xeons with ECC memory are going to offer you the highest compute accuracy over the long haul, which means the lowest chance of project corruption.

If you want 6 cores without sacrificing ECC support or memory expansion or clock speeds or PCIE lanes, the ~$580 E5-1650 v3 is the CPU to get.

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Some useful references:

http://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2014/10/03/Intel-Xeon-E5-v3-Haswell-EP-Buyers-Guide-599/

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Advantages-of-ECC-Memory-520/

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/ECC-and-REG-ECC-Memory-Performance-560/

 

[JC4]

Hmm, so from my interpretation of the articles. ECC performance isn't much of a decrease compared to standard? As far as the reliability and the failure rates between both, it doesn't seem too bad for home use, but would be good to have since I'm a student with all sorts of files. I take it? The prices for it vary a lot just like standard.

I've been thinking a lot. Perhaps I'll just go with a quad-core then and once it has some miles on it in a few years I'll upgrade to a six-core, hopefully they'll be more affordable or I'll have the career to pay no problem.
I have read though that the six-core works great, but may still "sweat" or work more compared to the Xeon.
I guess, I may go with the highly upgradeable Supermicro X10SRA-F since I'll have the option to put ECC RAM.
Still curious as to which x99 board or top 5 or so boards would you suggest since I'll get more for the money? or which other 2 non-ECC builds? Also which liquid cooling kit would you suggest for the supermicro board or should I stick to a fan for the cpu? Thanks again for helping with my build.

 

[mdocod]

Hmm, so from my interpretation of the articles. ECC performance isn't much of a decrease compared to standard? As far as the reliability and the failure rates between both, it doesn't seem too bad for home use, but would be good to have since I'm a student with all sorts of files. I take it? The prices for it vary a lot just like standard.

The "summery" you should take away from the articles is that ECC memory is more reliable, has lower error rates, doesn't cost much different than consumer memory, and performs fine.

I've been thinking a lot. Perhaps I'll just go with a quad-core then and once it has some miles on it in a few years I'll upgrade to a six-core, hopefully they'll be more affordable or I'll have the career to pay no problem.
I have read though that the six-core works great, but may still "sweat" or work more compared to the Xeon.

I'm not sure I follow on the premise of the sweating processor. Xeons's and i7's are built with the same core architecture, on the same silicon/fab. When configured with similar core count and clock speeds they have the same performance.

I guess, I may go with the highly upgradeable Supermicro X10SRA-F since I'll have the option to put ECC RAM.

I would advise against buying a motherboard to have the "option" to go ECC memory, either do it, or don't do it up front...
i7-5820K+X99+non-ECC-UDIMM
E5-1620V3+C612+ECC-RDIMM

Any deviation from one of these configurations is more likely to run into compatibility problems. When Xeon's are placed on some X99 boards, there is limited ECC memory support, and when i7's are placed on (some) C612 boards there is support for non-ECC UDIMM's, but these are both haphazard configs that are going to have limited support. My advise is to build 100% on either side of the line, either go enthusiast platform 100% or go enterprise platform 100%. Avoid Hodgepodge.

Still curious as to which x99 board or top 5 or so boards would you suggest since I'll get more for the money? or which other 2 non-ECC builds?

Here's an example of doing this build on X99, and even taking advantage of the smaller mATX form factor options here:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 3.3GHz 6-Core Processor ($384.99 @ Directron)
CPU Cooler: Zalman ZM-CNPS14X CPU Cooler ($36.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-X99M-GAMING 5 Micro ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard ($262.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($209.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($108.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Se 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: AMD FirePro W5100 4GB Video Card ($337.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Corsair 350D MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA 850W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($124.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1636.90
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-01-20 12:40 EST-0500

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All X99 boards are "nice," however at this early stage in the life of X99 I would actually advise glancing at newegg/amazon reviews and avoid boards with any repeating problem showing up with many users. Obviously those kinks will get worked out with future revisions but for now that's about your best defense. There are a bunch of boards in the ~$200-250 range on mATX and ATX sizes that are pretty good value options. You could probably pick based on color preference and do well

Also which liquid cooling kit would you suggest for the supermicro board or should I stick to a fan for the cpu? Thanks again for helping with my build.

If you'll note, in my original C612 build recommendation, there's a Silverstone AR01. That's a liquid heatpipe cooler with 3X8mm heatpipes well suited to high TDP CPUs. I DO recommend liquid for ALL builds whenever possible, but i recommend against systems which use a mechanical pumping method to move that liquid, as those systems come with nearly a dozen surface to surface seals which are all potential failure points that could leak. Then there's a issue of the potential for a pump failure, which leaves no passive dissipation capacity in place. Then there's the possibility of getting a noisy annoying pump. A Liquid heat-pipe has no surface to surface seals, the pumping action is actually driven by the heat it is dissipating, the only way it will ever leak is if it is the unfortunate victim of a computer hardware hate crime involving tiny assault weapons.

Pumped liquid cooling in the <$100 range isn't what it is cracked up to be. There's a heatpipe based cooler to match the performance of any <$100 AIOCLC when compared decibel for decibel, and those heatpipe coolers all have inherent advantages for reliability. I wouldn't bother with pumped liquid cooling unless the plan is to overclock an i7-5000 or FX-83XX/9000 to ~300W+ territory, and in those cases the only reason pumped liquid cooling takes over as the winner is that it affords the option to spread out that heat onto far more radiator than we could ever hang off a CPU socket. Anything less than a 280mm or 360mm AIOCLC or custom loop is just a pointless novelty that could be done better with heatpipes, and probably for less money.

I like heat-pipe coolers from Silverstone, Arctic Cooling, Noctua, Thermalright, Zalman, and Phanteks for use in desktop enthusiast/gaming/workstation computers.

 

[JC4]

Oh, I had read that someone said that the that the Intel Core i7-5820K made their fans work more than a Xeon, but never mind that. Yeah I did basically get that from the articles on ECC ram, I may just have over thought it at the time. Thanks.
Well I started my classes so I've hadn't as much time to read about this stuff and I've gotten a bit tired of it. I didn't think I was going to be taking these much time in considering my parts. I'm gettting anxious to build it already . Uhmm, if you don't mind I'll have more frequent questions? Since I wont be looking up parts and info as much.
Well I looked at the Intel site and it had that the C612 chipsets only support 2 displays? I think. Does that depend on the graphics card? I preferred upto 3 displays and also I don't see that it has HDMI port. I just want to make sure. I was wondering if the E3-1271V3 can go w/ the Supermicro X10SRA-F or does it not fit w/ the C612 chipset?

 

[JC4]

"Here's an example of doing this build on X99, and even taking advantage of the smaller mATX form factor options here:"
Also, is the advantage that it provides more physical space and the price?

 

[mdocod]

Hi JC4,

I'm not sure what you are reading regarding the C612 chipset and the maximum number of displays. You must be misunderstanding something. The chipset in this case has nothing to do with the maximum number of displays that the machine could support. The C612 chipset does not have integrated graphics, nor do the CPU's on this platform. The only GPU you'll find on some C612 chipset motherboards will be a basic VGA controller (added much like an ethernet controller or onboard sound), typically found on server motherboards. For a workstation on the 2011-3 socket you're going to use a discrete GPU's display connectivity.

mATX is a smaller size motherboard than the usual ATX. The whole build can take up less space. Might be nice if you're going to have to cram the computer in a bedroom or dorm.

 

[JC4]

Yeah sorry, I can't find what I thought of. I think I must of thought of something else when I was skimming through specs on other workstation boards and GPUs.

 

[JC4]

Hi again, I wanted to say im looking into finally buying the parts. I was busy with school and had to save up a bit again. I'm checking around for prices now and similar parts to what you suggested for cpus and mobos. most likely all go with the quadro though.

 

[JC4]

Hello again. Unfortunately I'm still looking. I still want the capabilities I originally asked for.
For this board Supermicro X10SRA-F ~$300.
I found this one for $399 on Amazon, but there's the F-O and other similar models that are less costly. I'm not sure on the difference though?
http://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-LGA2011-Server-Motherboards-X10SRA-F-O/dp/B00O7ZK10S/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1433450634&sr=1-1&keywords=Supermicro+X10SRA-F.

As well on other sites which is a lot cheaper $300-$330.

I was looking at other brands that make C612 mobos and support Xeon E5-1620 v3
I found this Asus Z10PA-U8~$300 on SuperBiiz. Is there any other affordable ones that come to mind?
I'm just not sure if I should spend too much on the motherboard.

 

[JC4]

Hi, so I found this X10SRA-O and was wondering if its the same as the X10SRA- F you suggested?
X10SRA-O
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182958&cm_re=c612-_-13-182-958-_-Product

I'm not sure about it because I don't see it on SuperMicro's list.

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon3000/#2011