Home workstation with great CPU power at reasonable cost

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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Hello all,

I am new to Tomshardware, my name is Tom and I am searching for hardware ;-)
This should be an ongoing discussion thread about my upcoming computer build - not 100% sure if I have placed it right. I am 100% sure, that many other builders / users will have similar requirements / ideas like myself, so I think that thrashing out detailed issues on and on for many weeks will be interesting to them too.

Ah what did I want to say exactly..? Yes, present my ideas about my future system, intentions and possible solutions. (see next post).
 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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My system is intendend for heavy multitasking (I am thinking of Ubuntu 16.04), even working with several VMs, plus working with RawTherapee on a 4K screen with the preview being about 5 Megapixels in size. Preview updating in "100% view" should be as fast as possible during the work. I do own an iMac i7-3770K with 16 gig DDR3-1600 and it is reasonably fast to work with Rawtherapee, having about 2 Megapixel in the preview. To make the new computer at least as fast, but with 5 Megapixel, I would need about 2.5 - 3 x the CPU processing power. It can use many cores, so increase of core / thread count will help.
Break - next post is about what hardware I am thinking of and what is the cost target.
 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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You have guessed wrong, if you thought I am dreaming of Intel's latest 10 core-broadwell-E.

→ Total system cost should be about 3000EUR, give or take a few 100s, including the screen and the UPS to hold up the whole system for at least 5 minutes.
So the ridiculously priced i7-extreme is out – I am thinking about the following:


Current ideas:

→ Dual Xeon E5-2680 (used for 100EUR per CPU)
→ 2 x high performance slow spinning CPU tower coolers, like Noctua NH-U12DX or better
--> 64 GIG of RAM (is it possible to run it stable at higher than 1600MHz in this setup?)
-> something the like of Asus Z9PA-D8C as an example
→ fast SSD (PCI-E?) for the system (data is stored on external harddisks, since I need to work with different computers) or boot from Sandisk Expreme Pro in USB3.0 mode? Would that be possible, alnbeit slower?
→ Graphics card capable of 4K, 60Hz, 4:4:4 over either HDMI or DP (depending on screen)
no gaming, but the 4K desktop must be fluent, even if youtube or full hd videos are played back.
→ Some 4K- 60Hz-4:4:4 capable TV set, 44 – 48“, curved, matte, low reflection, no burn in even if the same desktop is shown for days or weeks (about EUR 1000)
→ not yet looked for a good UPS
→ high performance power supply (~500W?), running at optimized operation point efficiency-wise most of the time and that „most of the time“ is desktop in idle mode – so need high efficiency at low load (full load will be a few hours per month, so much less important).
→ mid tower or big tower, low noise, good cooling, must be able to somewhow house the strange form factor of workstation boards.

Comments / ideas are welcome..
Are there any known traps or pitfalls, what I need to avoid with such a build?
Why do the TVs tend to not have the Display port and why is there so many almost similar models of them – why is there no dedicated computer screen 45", 4K, curved / low reflection?
 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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So I have heard there is much about the memory configuration in such a dual system. Dual channel - quad channel,...
But if I intend to populate all 8 sockets by 8 gigs PC3-12800 each, then there can't be any faster configuration (apart from using faster RAM, what is not specified for the XEON), right? I ve heard that lastest i7 skylake can work with up to >3000MHz DDR-4, although specified 2133MHz. Can the XEON Sandy-Bridge-EP work stable with faster than 1600MHz DDR3?
 
You've stated you want to use Linux (Ubuntu). Make sure whatever you choose (hardware, software) will work as you want it under Linux. The part which looks to be important for you (graphics) will be the primary concern.

And you must be joking with 500W power supply.
 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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board and CPUs need 300W at full load. "el cheapo" graphic card plus ssd will not use more than 200W.
Of course I will factor in some headroom, so I ll go maybe for a 650W supply, maybe 750 if the more powerful will stay more quiet since fan need not operate full speed.
 


Thomas Lechner,

Tis kind of project will much faster, easier, and less expensive by buying a used workstation than building from individual parts. This is due to the system being already depreciated and the upgrades are mostly simple plug ins. Another significant advantage is that the drivers, instructions, troubleshooting and etc. is all in one place, the man'f. support and user /service manuals.

My current project is quite similar to your proposed one, in my example, to replace a Dell Precision T5500 that I use for analytical, simulations, and rendering. uses.

Purchased for $270:

HP z620 (Original) Xeon E5-1620 4-core @ 3.6 /3.8GHz) / 8GB (1X 8GB DDR3-1333) / AMD Firepro V5900 (2GB) / Seagate Barracuda 750GB + Samsung 500GB + WD 500GB / Windows 7 Prof'l
[ Passmark System Rating= 2408 / CPU= 8361 / 2D= 846 / 3D = 1613 / Mem =1584 / Disk = 574 ] 7.13.16

Purchased:

2X Xeon E5-2690: $320
2nd CPU riser: $150
32GB RAM: $165
Quadro K2200 from the T5500
Set of new plastic case parts: $56
Eventually: Intel 730 480GB and WD Black 1TB from HP z420

Current results::

HP z620 (Rev 2) 2X Xeon E5-2690 (8-core @ 2.9 /3.8GHz) / 40GB (4X 8GB +4X 2GB DDR3-1600) / Quadro K2200 (4GB) / Seagate Barracuda 750GB + Samsung 500GB + WD 500GB / 800W > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit >
[ Passmark System Rating= 2468 / CPU= 20083 / 2D= 731 / 3D = 3535/ Mem =2278 / Disk = 541 ] 8.1.16
BIOS: 3.88
[ Passmark System Rating= 2589 / CPU= 19671 / 2D= 728 / 3D = 3542 / Mem =2397 / Disk = 587 ] 8.2.16

In terms of overall cost, including the value of the used parts from the HP z420,, the total should be about $1,200-1,300.

Candidates for this project would include Dell Precision T5600, T7600, HP z640, z820. A recent example:

HP Z620 2x Intel Xeon E5-2620 6x 2,0GHz 16GB Nvidia Quadro NVS 300 128GB SSD > sold for EUR 779,00 oder Preisvorschlag

That would be a good way to buy as that system has 128GB of RAM and the 2nd CPU riser costs $150+. So the above system would simply exchange the E5-2620's to E5-2680's, GPU, and drives.

In the US as a new Asus Z9PA-D8C costs $335, a pair of E5-2680 (about $220) then the RAM (about $250), power supply- use an 850W or more for this project, ($150) GPU (say $450), coolers: $80, case ($120), drives say, $250, a copy of Windows $140, that will add up_ I.m guessing about $1700+- In teh EU perhaps €2500 or so plus there all the assembly, wiring, configuration to do.

Memory for a dual CPU system is said to be best with the same quantity of RAM for each processor and more important to have all the slots on the particular channel filled. In my Z620 the mainboard (8 slots) has 2X 8GB + 2X 2GB and the same for the 2nd CPU riser which has only 4 slots. that's a total of 40GG, with 20GB for each CPU. Sometime I'll replace the 2GB modules with 8GB to have 64GB.

I've had excellent results and 100% reliability with the 5 used workstations I've bought and the support from Dell and HP even though they're used is an important plus. When I need a copy of Windows for the Dell T5500, Dell sent an OEM disk free of charge and it activated automatically.

As your budget though is quite good, if you would like to spend more or have as much as possible to be new, consider:

[SuperWorkstation SYS-7037A-i (Black)

I could not immediately find the price in the EU, but the cost in the US is $720, so perhaps EUR 750- 800 or so. Geizhals DE has the LGA2011-3 version the 7038 for about €800.

The Superworkstation provides a case, motherboard, CPU coolers, and 900W power supply all of server quality.The 7047 model has an 1100W PSU. As for the used workstation, one need only add the CPU's, RAM, GPU, and drives. The only decisions are the plugin parts. Fro professional use as the main system, I would use the Superworkstation.

What programs are you using?

Cheers,

BamibBoom


Modeling:

1. HP z420 (2015) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz) / 32GB DDR3 -1866 ECC RAM / Quadro K4200 (4GB) / Samsung SM951 M.2 256GB AHCI + Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) + Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > 600W PSU> > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > Logitech z2300 speakers > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440)>
[ Passmark Rating = 5581 > CPU= 14046 / 2D= 838 / 3D= 4694 / Mem= 2777 / Disk= 11559] [6.12.16]

Analysis / Simulation / Rendering:

2. Dell Precision T5500 (2011) (Revised) > 2X Xeon X5680 (6-core @ 3.33 / 3.6GHz), 48GB DDR3 1333 ECC Reg. > Quadro K2200 (4GB ) > PERC H310 / Samsung 840 250GB / WD RE4 Enterprise 1TB > M-Audio 192 sound card > Logitech z313 > 875W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64> HP 2711x (27", 1920 X 1080)
[ Passmark system rating = 3844 > CPU = 15047 / 2D= 662 / 3D= 3550 / Mem= 1785 / Disk= 2649] (12.30.15)













 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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Hello, we have that kind of used workstation reseller here (Europe) , but they are taking a huge premium compared to the sum of the parts second hand.
The guy here is called solarbayer, selling Dells and HPs on ebay, but as soon as I am searching for dual 2680 the thing gets quite expensive.
Faster, easier - yes - but not less expensive. Anyway, I am eyeing this "refurbished workstation" market and would be glad to jump in if there was an opportunity to get exactly what I am thinking of at a good price.
Another point is, that the workstations have smaller / less effective heatsink coolers, so the Xeons can operate stable, but they will not be in turbo mode for long if many cores are used, what is specified and possible to achieve as long as the temperatures are really low.
 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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"In the US as a new Asus Z9PA-D8C costs $335, a pair of E5-2680 (about $220) then the RAM (about $250), power supply- use an 850W or more for this project, ($150) GPU (say $450), coolers: $80, case ($120), drives say, $250, a copy of Windows $140, that will add up_ I.m guessing about $1700+- In teh EU perhaps €2500 or so plus there all the assembly, wiring, configuration to do."

GPU <150EUR (I said no gaming just 4K).
Total budget of EUR 3000 leaves 1600 for the hardware, based on the fact that I am going to "donate" about 1000 EUR to the TV industry (since the computer market has no good big curved screen) plus planning EUR 400 for a good UPS.
Why you think that, in the EU, $1700 equals EUR 2500 - would be more like EUR1550.

"Candidates for this project would include Dell Precision T5600, T7600, HP z640, z820. A recent example:

HP Z620 2x Intel Xeon E5-2620 6x 2,0GHz 16GB Nvidia Quadro NVS 300 128GB SSD > sold for EUR 779,00 oder Preisvorschlag

That would be a good way to buy as that system has 128GB of RAM "

It has 16 Gigs of RAM, the "128" is the SSD
 

Thomas Lechner

Commendable
Aug 12, 2016
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just checked out the Supermicro SYS-7037A-I SMCI SuperWorkstation Barebone-PC
It is a house, a PSU, fans and the mainboard. EUR 1000 is steep for that, isn't it?
Anyway - thanks for your input
 


Thomas Lechner,

My idea was to suggest a couple of general alternatives, the used workstation being less expensive than building for the same quality, which releases money for a higher level of GPU and monitor. The Superworkstation as a faster project and of the highest possible quality, using specialist components refined for stability / reliability. Superworkstations are rated as among the quietest.

The cost estimate in EUR has to be a guess as the country from which the parts are bought is not known. If, for example the Supermicro Superworkstation 7037 costs $720 in the US, but where you are, it costs EUR 1000 or $1,116, that means that the same part costs 55% more. And, in that case, it does seem too expensive. If I take the rough guess of $1,700 and add 55% that equals $2,635 or EUR 2360. No, not EUR 2500, but reflects the generally higher cost of parts in the EU.

If you could give the address of the source of parts, it would be possible for someone to provide specific recommendations that fit the budget.

Cheers,

BambiBoom


 


Thomas Lechner,

Yes, that's correct. As you mentioned using the Xeon E5-2680- the first version (or it could also be were the E5-2680 v2), that is LGA2011, which for the Superworkstation means the 7037 and DDR3-1600 or DDDR3 1866 for the v2 CPU.

If the E5-2680 were v3 or v4, that is LGA2011-3 or the the Superworkstation 7038 which also means DDR4-2133 for E5 2600 v3 and DDR4-2400 for some v4 CPU's.

The Superworkstation does seem very expensive in the EU. Because I see a used HP z620 or Dell Precision T7600 setup for dual CPU's costs about $700 in the US anyway, the 7037 at $720 seems reasonable- but not $1,100. The Supermicro X9DAI-O motherboard in the Superworkstation 7037 on it's own cost $430, a 900W Gold-rated PSU is nearly $200, the case of that quality $200-250, CPU coolers- perhaps $60-80 each, and etc. The EUR is bit lower at the moment and the VAT always adds a bit.

Cheers,

BambiBoom



 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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Yep, I am looking for v1, not v2, v3 or v4 because only Sandy bridge is cheap now (used).
The main difference between the Xeon generations is power efficiency, but since the desktop will be used in idle mode most of the time, the Intel speed stepping will reduce power conusmption anyway to an acceptable level. Unlike the server guys, I do not care about energy cost during full load, since that will happen a few hours per month in my case...
 


Thomas Lechner,

The recent very welcome drop in prices for the E5-2670, -80, and 90 first version is apparently due to the "thousands" siad to have been rotated out on a schedule by huge server users such as Facebook and Google.

The power use of that series is reasonable, given the specification. The office Dell Precision T5400 has Xeon X5640 non-hyperthreading 4-cores @ 3.16GHz- 130W, the Dell Precision T3500 has a Xeon X5677 4-core hyperthreading /Turbo @ 3.46 / 3.73 - 130W, HP z420, E5-1660 v2 6-core @ 3.7 .4.0GHz- 130W, and the E5-2670 8-core @ 2.9 /3.8- 115W. And you're right, CPU's are in an idle state much of the time and are not always running at full speed even under use.

Not to worry about reliability though, the MTBF, the average longevity- of an E5-2670 is 170,000 hours- continuous running for 19+ years and that's a 2012 design- so think about replacing it in 2031. The performance is also very good. Each new series adds 2-cores and the clock speed and single thread drops.

Where would you buy parts for your new system?

Here is an earlier idea for a dual E5-2600 1st series system:

Workstation > 2D-3D CAD / Graphic Design / Simulation / Development / Scientific / ALT > Rendering/ Video Editing > Xeon E5-2600 1st Version >_8.14.16

Processor: 2X Xeon E5- 2600 First series or v2


Motherboard: SUPERMICRO MBD-X9DRL-IF-B ATX Motherboard (Bulk Pack) Dual LGA 2011 Intel C606 DDR3 1600 > $335

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4S844G6254

Memory: Kingston ValueRAM 64GB (4 x 16GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Registered DDR3 1600 Server Memory DR x4 Model KVR16R11D4K4/64 > $317

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239276&cm_re=64GB_DDR3_1600-_-20-239-276-_-Product

Graphics: Visualization / Scientific: PNY Quadro M2000 VCQM2000-PB 4GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 Workstation Video Card > $436.00

Graphics ALT: Rendering / Video Editing: MSI GeForce GTX 1070 DirectX 12 GTX 1070 GAMING 8G 8GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support ATX Video Card > $439.99

Storage 1: SAMSUNG SM951 M.2 512GB PCI-Express 3.0 Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZHPV512HDGL-00000 > $350

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA12K3GB5852&cm_re=samsung_sm951_m.2-_-20-147-426-_-Product

Storage 2: WD Black 2TB Performance Desktop Hard Disk Drive - 7200 RPM SATA 6 Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD2003FZEX > $122.99

Case: Fractal Design Define XL R2 Black Silent EATX Full Tower Computer Case > $139.99

Power Supply: CORSAIR RMx Series RM850X 850W 80 PLUS GOLD Haswell Ready Full Modular ATX12V & EPS12V SLI and Crossfire Ready Power Supply > $109.99

Cooling: 2X Noctua NH-U12S 120x120x25 ( NF-F12 PWM) SSO2-Bearing CPU Cooler > $123

Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit - OEM > $140

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416804&cm_re=windows_7-_-32-416-804-_-Product

=============================================================

TOTAL = $2074 Visualization w/o CPU
TOTAL = $2079 Rendering /Video Editingw/o CPU


If each CPU cost EUR 100 or $115, that total would be about $2304 or converted to EUR: 2063

Just an example.


Cheers,

BambiBoom

 

Thomas Lechner

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Aug 12, 2016
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Hello,
the system should come into life over the next 12 months, no need to hurry, so there will be Bill of Materials versions, that maybe change a little over the months as the discussion / bargain hunting goes on.
as of now, I am working on the BOM v1, what has still several possible component variatioons listed (just to put my thoughts and considerations together on a "paper")
No newegg over here, Idea is to get all parts from some geizhals stores /amazon etc. and do the build myself (unless I get a great offer at a "ready workstation" what I cannot reject.

RAM-wise I think 8 x 8 GB is better due to the 4 channel operation per CPU, better than 4 x 16GB
Not sure if all that possible boards from ASUS / ASrock / Supermicro, etc...are ready to boot from PCI-e SSDs (need to check that)
SSD wise I can get away with 128GB. Would a SATA SSD instead M.2 slow down the system big time? Don't think so much...
2 (maybe 3) EXT 4 partitions for linux distros, (40GB each) and one NTFS partition for maybe a later install of win 7.
64 GB of RAM in my case (I typically would use below 20) means I do not need any swap partition (what causes issues with wear down of SSD cells anyway)
Don't need any rotating HD (as I said all data is on my redundant external USB3 seagates). So 120 - 128GB of SSD storage is all storage i need to build into the system.
power supply corsair rmx looks sensible, but maybe I look for a platinum psu (psu needs to have 2 CPU power connectors)

 

Thomas Lechner

Commendable
Aug 12, 2016
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Hello,

in the meantime I got 2 x E5-2680 for a total of EUR 213 including shipping (ebay - Hope they are good)
Next step is the board / PSU / RAM / CPU cooler, otherwise I cannot even test the CPUs. I ll put that together in "open mode", to see if it works - case will come later.
Dunno if I need a graphic card to power up the system in low resolution (?), since all of the boards have VGA connector.

Options are:

SUPERMICRO MBD-X9DRL-IF-B ATX Motherboard : ~ EUR 420 including shipping
ASUS Z9PA-D8: ~ EUR 270 plus no shipping but picking from shop (only one to have USB 3.0)
ASRock Rack EP2C602 (90-SXG0G0-A0UAYZ) - EUR 355 incl. shipping
ASRock Rack EP2C602-4L/D16 (90-SXG0K0-A0UAYZ) - EUR 381 incl. shipping
ASRock Rack EP2C602-2L+/D16 (90-SXG190-A0UAYZ) - EUR 380, free amazon shipping

What are the pro's and con's of each board?

 

Thomas Lechner

Commendable
Aug 12, 2016
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PSU could be:

EVGA SuperNOVA 850 G2, 80+ GOLD 850W - EUR 155 at amazon.de
Corsair RMx Series RM850x 850W ATX 2.4 (CP-9020093-EU) - from EUR 14o incl. shipping
Corsair Professional Series HX1200i 1200W ATX 2.4 (CP-9020070-EU) € 250 +shipping
 


Thomas Lechner,

On Passmark Performance Test baselines a search for the highest scores for the E5-2680 by motherboard were:

1. Lenovo D30___ 21419
2. Dell Precision T7600___ 20974
3, Dell Precision T5600 ___ 20913
4. Lenovo D30___ 20912
5. ASUS Z9PE-D8 ___ 20680
6. EVGA Classified SR-X ___ 20250
7. Lenovo C30 ___ 19718
8. Dell T7600 ___ 19181
9. ASUS Z9PE-D8 ___ 19150
10. Dell Precision T7600 ___ 19117

From these results, consider buying a Lenovo D30, Precision T7600, or T5600 with low specification processors and changing to the E5 2680.

Dell Precision T7600 // 2x Xeon E5-2643, 32 GB, 1 TB HDD, Quadro FX1800 > EUR 995,00

And, on Ebay.de, the E5 2643 can be sold for EUR 300 each so that system actually cost about EUR 400.

This would be of course, much faster than building from parts and less expensive. One only needs to plug in the new parts and then there is a user manual and driver support. I bought an HP z620 for $270 and had it running one half hour from opening the box. Otherwise, it appears the ASUS Z9PE-D8 is very effective.

If you would like to build the system, Corsair and Seasonic power supplies have a very good reputation. Unless you plan to add multiple GPU's such as Tesla coprocessors, 1200W is not necessary - 1000W is enough.

Cheers,

BambiBoom









 

Thomas Lechner

Commendable
Aug 12, 2016
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Hello,

that is some good idea to change the CPU on a used WS. The ebay auction link is gone, but there may be more of this kind. I ll investigate into this...
Asus Z9PE-D8 is more expensive than Z9PA-D8, so that is why I put PA, not PE into my list. What is the main advantage of the pricier board ?
 


Thomas Lechner,


I am surprised to read that a T5600 is so noisy. I have a T5400, T3500, and T5500 and these are certainly make more sound than the HP's but could not be heard from 30cm away if there were air conditioning running.

The HP z620 is extraordinarily quiet and I imagine that the z8210 must be quieter yet. Consider z820 as those do not use the 2nd CPU riser board and I think the CPU performance is a bit better.

Buying a good used workstation should make the process quite a bit simpler and faster and less expensive.

There are two reasons why the E5-2643 is more valuable than the E5 2680:, first, the E5-2643 is near the top end in terms of E5-2600 series clock speeds as it's 3.3 / 3.5 and secondly, the E5-2670, 2680, and 2690 were sold by the hundreds when rotated out of very large servers- facebrook, amazone, and goople etc. there were many.,many offered all at once.

I'm not aware of the differences in the ASUS WS boards, but will have a look. There is a -D8 with 8 RAM slots and a iD16 with 16 slots. ASUS are more expensive, but on Passmark they very often seem to have better results for the same CPU. I think I counted once that 22 of the Passmark Top 100 systems used only three models of ASUS X99 motherboards. I do like Supermicro from the view that they they are known for their super-reliable server and produce dozens of variations for every purpose. I have thought fro some time to make my next analytical / scientific system using the special Supermicro motherboard that supports 4X double height GPUs without covering the other PCIe slots. This supports a Quadro / Tesla configuration called a "Maximus"- a "Personal Supercomputer."

Cheers,

BambiBoom
 

Thomas Lechner

Commendable
Aug 12, 2016
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hp z820 seems to be a nice hardware, but why would any system, besides maybe something like that:
https://www.top500.org/system/178764 ;-)
ever be allowed to use >260Watts at IDLE??? That is ridiculous, 261Watts just to run system and show a desktop, what a battery powered tablet can do with 4-5 watts (screen not counted). What an awful waste if such a system is on 24/7...

http://www.cgchannel.com/2012/10/review-hp-z820-workstation/

This solarbayer has that z820 on ebay, but his dropdown selection does not really work to show the price right, at least not with m,y firefox
. Besides, the Quadros are way too expensive. I am thinking of a card in the range of less than EUR 150 (R7 or GTX 750 or the like)

http://www.ebay.de/itm/HP-Z820-Workstation-PC-Video-Bildbearbeitung-3D-CAD-Konstruktion-Architektur-/262533858579?var=&hash=item3d203cc513:m:m-g9zmXRnriBCc-AMHUeZxw
 

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