[SOLVED] How Come Everyone Isn't Moving To These?

[Kirbyarm]

I'm not sure I quite understand. Like I get that they're really expensive, but why aren't these in mass production over much larger 2.5"/3.5"/M.2 drives?

1 TB in the size of a fingernail over hand-sized drives. I'm so confused. You could literally stack 100 of those little guys in the same space as one standard SSD.

Edit: Forgot the image:

https://imgur.com/trzmei5

View: https://i.imgur.com/trzmei5.png

 

[TJ Hooker]

Endurance and performance are nowhere close to a proper SSD drive.

Also, they lack a built in controller, so I believe storage I/O would be more CPU intensive.

 

[Gam3r01]

Yeah, no on board controllers, limited endurance, lackluster speed, and a limited interface.
It costs a bunch of money to get flash memory that small, why bother with a TB microSD card when you can get an NVME drive with exponentially faster speeds, substantially longer endurance, and in a self contained package?
To answer your question already, its been done, and it does not work well:
https://www.amazon.com/ports-Micro-Memory-Adapter-Converter/dp/B01AHRB23E

 

[Kirbyarm]

That makes senses. It's in line with what my friend was saying about this too, hmm. I guess I was looking less at performance and more at optimal physical space conservation. Imagining shelves of these tiny little micro sd cards with such a large capacity.

The one I linked a picture of in the OP has about 60/90 MB/s speeds, which does seem slow, until you plug it into a USB 3.0+ card reader via USB 3.0+ port to get its max speeds of up to 160 MB/s. This is only what.. 3 or 4 times slower than a standard SSD which is considered super fast?

I guess servers and processes these days actually need the speed if I think about it. Making that super small size come with several heft prices. Thanks for clarifying guys.

 

[Gam3r01]

No, that card is still limited to its listed speeds, about 60/90 (or 170/90 on higher end models), you then also have to have a fast enough adapter to let it operate at that speed. It still caps out at its own limit though.
Compare 60/90 to something like a 660p which is a budget NVME (~90 bucks/TB) at 1800/1800. Not to mention microSD struggles with sustained read/write cycles.

 

[USAFRet]

Different tools for different uses.

While these are conveniently tiny, they are massively slower than a traditional SSD.
But, you can't squeeze an NVMe drive inside a cellphone.

 

[popatim]

The one I linked a picture of in the OP has about 60/90 MB/s speeds, which does seem slow, until you plug it into a USB 3.0+ card reader via USB 3.0+ port to get its max speeds of up to 160 MB/s.

Speed is always limited by the speed of the slowest device in the chain. You can't get a 90mb/s device to work at 160 no matter how you connect it. Just wanted to be clear on that.

 

[Kirbyarm]

Thank you everyone for being so helpful and informative~

popatim, yes I did recently learn that when I built my latest computer 6 or 7 months ago.

The micro sd card supposedly runs at those speeds when everything else can support it. 160/90 MB/s. I saw supposedly because I just ordered a V30 128 GB micro SD the other day and it should be here Tuesday for actual verification of these specs.

So would you say the micro sd cards you get from SanDisk, the ones that comes with the normal sized sd card adapter, that the provided adapter from official SanDisk is capable of transferring the full speed of the micro sd card?

Also I saw these pro extreme SD cards on amazon that claim to have speeds of 300/299 MB/s. Their capacities aren't that big at 32 GB and 64 GB respectively and they are quite expensive, but those transfer speeds are so good! Why aren't we migrating toward these newer models that are nearly-everything-proof (including magnet and water) and withstand time for allegedly decades longer than HDD/SDD/CD/DVD etc. I'm just thinking longterm data storage. Stuff I still want to have access to wayyyy down the road.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm pressing this so much. It feels like we're so close to some really premium and compact storage solutions with maximum endurance.

But yeah I agree overall. For the lesser cards, different tools for different purposes seems about right.

 

[USAFRet]

I'm not exactly sure why I'm pressing this so much. It feels like we're so close to some really premium and compact storage solutions with maximum endurance.

1. They're still much more expensive per GB vs an SSD, either SATA III or NVMe.
2. They're still a lot slower.
3. There is no onboard controller.
4. Unlike a cell phone or little tablet, a full size laptop or PC is not space constrained. I have a couple 256GB Samsung, for use in my Asus Transformers.

 

[USAFRet]

These are for miniaturization, not speed (yet).

 

[fzabkar]

All USB flash devices, including SD cards, have an onboard flash controller. Some have an eMMC chip which incorporates both controller and flash in the same IC package.

PC-3000 Flash. How to recover data from a monolith (microSD card):
https://blog.acelaboratory.com/pc-3000-flash-circuit-board-and-msd-card-preparing-and-soldering.html

Nowadays a lot of modern NAND flash devices use a new type of architecture, where the interface, the controller and memory chips are integrated into one common ceramic layer. We call it Monolithic structure.

Until recently, all memory cards like SD, Sony MemoryStick, MMC and others, contained a very simple “classic” structure with separated parts – a controller, a PCB and a NAND memory chip in the TSOP-48 or LGA-52 package. In such cases, the full process of recovery was very simple – we just unsoldered the memory chip, read it in PC-3000 Flash, and made the same preparation as with common USB Flash drives.

 

[Gam3r01]

Thank you everyone for being so helpful and informative~

popatim, yes I did recently learn that when I built my latest computer 6 or 7 months ago.

The micro sd card supposedly runs at those speeds when everything else can support it. 160/90 MB/s. I saw supposedly because I just ordered a V30 128 GB micro SD the other day and it should be here Tuesday for actual verification of these specs.

So would you say the micro sd cards you get from SanDisk, the ones that comes with the normal sized sd card adapter, that the provided adapter from official SanDisk is capable of transferring the full speed of the micro sd card?

Also I saw these pro extreme SD cards on amazon that claim to have speeds of 300/299 MB/s. Their capacities aren't that big at 32 GB and 64 GB respectively and they are quite expensive, but those transfer speeds are so good! Why aren't we migrating toward these newer models that are nearly-everything-proof (including magnet and water) and withstand time for allegedly decades longer than HDD/SDD/CD/DVD etc. I'm just thinking longterm data storage. Stuff I still want to have access to wayyyy down the road.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm pressing this so much. It feels like we're so close to some really premium and compact storage solutions with maximum endurance.

But yeah I agree overall. For the lesser cards, different tools for different purposes seems about right.

The 300MB/s cards you are seeing are designed for use in mirrorless cameras that need a very high write speed to clear the internal buffer from prolonged photo bursts. These bursts fill an internal buffer up to 130 images at, say, 30MB each, you have to have a fast speed to clear that buffer before you can continue shooting.
Again though, 300/300 in PC terms is fast, but not anything impressive.

 

[CountMike]

Because they are easily lost ?

 

[Kirbyarm]

While all of this is pretty much true and somewhat subjective depending on the task at hand.. what about the most highly secure longterm data storage method currently available? For like, highly sensitive data and/or archival purposes. Waterproof, magnetproof and nearly timeproof has to stand for something with the mirco SD cards, surely?

I'd be willing to wait a little longer for certain types of stored data that i don't use that much but want access to at any time as an example or other important operations. I don't know. Hmm.

 

[USAFRet]

From Samsung, for the 512GB SDXC EVO Select:
https://www.samsung.com/us/support/owners/product/microsdxc-evo-select-memory-card-512gb
"Usage Application: Mobile phone, Smartphone, Tablet, etc"

Again, these are designed for use cases where physical size is a key factor.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Why aren't we migrating toward these newer models that are nearly-everything-proof (including magnet and water) and withstand time for allegedly decades longer than HDD/SDD/CD/DVD etc.

[...]

what about the most highly secure longterm data storage method currently available? For like, highly sensitive data and/or archival purposes. Waterproof, magnetproof and nearly timeproof has to stand for something with the mirco SD cards, surely?

I'd be willing to wait a little longer for certain types of stored data that i don't use that much but want access to at any time as an example or other important operations. I don't know. Hmm.

Where are you getting that from? SD cards are the last thing I'd use for archival or long term storage. They will absolutely lose data if left unpowered for long enough, same as an SSD. Anecdotally, it seems that SD cards are typically more prone to random failure than SSDs.

 

[TJ Hooker]

The micro sd card supposedly runs at those speeds when everything else can support it. 160/90 MB/s.

[...]

Also I saw these pro extreme SD cards on amazon that claim to have speeds of 300/299 MB/s. Their capacities aren't that big at 32 GB and 64 GB respectively and they are quite expensive, but those transfer speeds are so good!

I very much doubt you'll get anywhere near those speeds in sustained, real world use. SD cards also typically have pretty bad random I/O performance, which is the most important metric for typical computer use.

 

[Kirbyarm]

SanDisk's amazon page for their micro SDs claim to be proofed by these things.. and I'm pretty sure dropping a HDD/SSD could very easily damage them permanently where as SD cards will just fall and be fine in most cases.

No HDD/SSD I know can withstand a flood for 2-3 days and be magnet proof. SanDisk claims their SD cards are. Surely they are not scandals. All their SD and micro SD cards have phenomenal reviews and ratings..

I guess what I'm hoping to learn from this discussion the most is, where can I physically trust my data longterm? HDDs have moving parts that are bound to fail after a number of hours/years. SSDs after a certain amount of usage and typically fails after a 'few years'. Compact discs and DVDs and discs of that nature will slowly decay with time, thus not a viable option. Thumb sticks are so limited in capacity and a bit space hoggy in bigger numbers. I remember a few harddrives I lost to a neardby magnet when I didn't know, same with an old CRTV. Magnet warped and discolored more than 50% of the screen!

If micro SDs are so frowned upon, what alternatives are there for my secure bank vault type data?

 

[Kirbyarm]

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07FCMKK5X

https://imgur.com/784Cvep

View: https://i.imgur.com/784Cvep.png

https://imgur.com/iOoHsEK

View: https://i.imgur.com/iOoHsEK.png

 

[USAFRet]

It's not that they are frowned upon, it's just they are not good for every use case.
Sure, they're waterproof. I expect any solid state drive is.

I wouldn't put any storage media on the shelf an expect 100% of them to retain data for years.

And bottom line...these are significantly slower than other solid state devices in the current market.

 

[USAFRet]

For the SanDisk Extreme microSD you link:
4,000 IOPS read, 2,000 IOPS write
160MB/s read, 90MB/s write

Meanwhile, a typical SATA III SSD sees:
80,000 IOPS read and write
550MB/s read, 520MB/s write

-----------------------------------------

For the Extreme Pro SD Card
300MB/s (read, write?)
64GB for ~$100USD

Meanwhile, $100USD buys a 1TB SATA III SSD with almost twice that speed, or a 1TB Intel 660p with 5x that speed. 15x the size, same price, and much faster.
--------------------------------------------

If my device is not size constrained, like a tablet or camera, why should I go for much slower speed at a higher price?

 

[TJ Hooker]

I guess what I'm hoping to learn from this discussion the most is, where can I physically trust my data longterm? HDDs have moving parts that are bound to fail after a number of hours/years. SSDs after a certain amount of usage and typically fails after a 'few years'.

You realize SD cards use essentially the same tech as SSDs, i.e. flash storage? SD cards also wear out after a "certain amount of usage", i.e. number of P/E cycles. IIRC they actually typically have much lower endurance than SSDs. And either kind of storage will start to lose data if left unpowered for a while.

SSDs are also largly magnet proof, same as SD cards. Although I question how important that really ends up being in practice.

I don't see anything in your links about SanDisk claiming their drives can withstand days of flooding. I would expect a regular SSD to survive at least some water exposure, as long it's properly dried and you make sure the water didn't leave and conductive deposits.

I also don't see anything in your links claiming that an SD card will retain data for "decades".

 

[Kirbyarm]

Right @TJ Hooker , so it isn't really being all that helpful telling me that you failed to locate the same information and assumed those exact links were the ones I was referring to while looking at several dozen different SD card store page's worth of information on that day.

Just here to learn the solution to longterm storage, which type of storage is most secure, pros and cons of each and for the most part learn this by stating what I understand so far. These aren't claims as you say, I am more looking for confirmation of a lot of such details and may be writing them in a manner that can be seen that way (apologies).

If SD cards are not that solution, that's perfectly fine, but please try suggesting something that I can do to actually keep data over decades (or more) as I requested.

What about the most highly secure longterm data storage method currently available?

Okay so they're very similar technology to SSDs and SSDs are also generally magnetproof/waterproof to an extent. Is that right? The gravity point of dropping SSD vs SD card though does still kinda stand strong. But at the cost of all that speed.

STILL! Speed is semi-irrelevant for this bank-vault type secure data storage that I'm seeking. Is there really nothing to be done for archival storage besides cloning the data to other devices on a somewhat regular basis?

What if I wanted to seal some humanity-crucial data in a 3-inch thick steel chest for 100+ years with an "Open in 2119" tag on it? How can I ensure the survival of the data/devices of that buried chest?

 

[USAFRet]

What if I wanted to seal some humanity-crucial data in a 3-inch thick steel chest for 100+ years with an "Open in 2119" tag on it? How can I ensure the survival of the data/devices of that buried chest?

We already have that.
It's called "the internet".

There are archival DVD said to last "100 years"

Blank DVD-R Archival Grade Gold Discs for Archiving Digital Storage - Archival DVD Media | Verbatim

That is physically imprinted on the foil layer.
Of course, since we've not had these for an actual 100 years, will they work? Probably....

 

[Corwin65]

Right @TJ Hooker , so it isn't really being all that helpful telling me that you failed to locate the same information and assumed those exact links were the ones I was referring to while looking at several dozen different SD card store page's worth of information on that day.

Just here to learn the solution to longterm storage, which type of storage is most secure, pros and cons of each and for the most part learn this by stating what I understand so far. These aren't claims as you say, I am more looking for confirmation of a lot of such details and may be writing them in a manner that can be seen that way (apologies).

If SD cards are not that solution, that's perfectly fine, but please try suggesting something that I can do to actually keep data over decades (or more) as I requested.



Okay so they're very similar technology to SSDs and SSDs are also generally magnetproof/waterproof to an extent. Is that right? The gravity point of dropping SSD vs SD card though does still kinda stand strong. But at the cost of all that speed.

STILL! Speed is semi-irrelevant for this bank-vault type secure data storage that I'm seeking. Is there really nothing to be done for archival storage besides cloning the data to other devices on a somewhat regular basis?

What if I wanted to seal some humanity-crucial data in a 3-inch thick steel chest for 100+ years with an "Open in 2119" tag on it? How can I ensure the survival of the data/devices of that buried chest?

In a hundred years the media might survive but the ability to access that media might not.

Almost seems vacuum sealed paper would be a safer alternative.