Question How high can I raise the Vcore on a Ryzen 7 3800x?

Feb 24, 2020
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I have the Vcore right now at 1.45V with the cpu clock ratio at 44.5 from 39. It's stable right now. It's not stable at 45. Should I keep raising the Vcore? Everything else is in Auto including Vcore SOC and Global C-Control State. Motheboard x570 aorus pro wifi. Thank you.
 

zx128k

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Leave the CPU cores at stock until we know what is safe.

I would expect one or two months for it to degrade. A constant vcore of 1.45 volts is very high. No one knows whats safe with these cpu's and there are reddit posts were people have degraded cpu's at much lower voltages (1.3volts).

There is also this whole procedure whereby you determine your FIT voltage and the Fmax at that voltage. Above FIT voltage or maximum FIT voltage but higher frequencies can cause degradation. I can't say if it is true but its your risk.

If you had a 3900x I would not manually overclock that cpu, its £500 and same with a 3800x that can do an IF of 1900.

Robert Hallock from AMD explained this perfectly.
The CPU is programmed to use these voltages automatically. We know it's safe, because we designed it that way. The CPU cannot and does not use voltages that are unsafe for the silicon.
The key thing that people forget in these cases is time and temperature. Running 1.4V or 1.5V here and there is not a big deal, because the CPU will eventually back down according to its pre-programmed model. Or if you have great cooling, that also offsets the thermal effect of voltage. In either case, you're seeing momentary blips of voltage that are offset by the hours per day your CPU is probably doing nothing at all--at a very low voltage.
The average vcore for Ryzen over time is around 1.25V (give or take).
tl;dr: leave the CPU alone, let it do its thing, don't worry. We designed the CPU to do this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cnx6no View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cnx6no/zen_2_degradation_experience/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
 
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Feb 24, 2020
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Here is the thing with fear the processor will become degraded. Technically it doesn't really matter how much voltage you give to that processor as long as you keep it at low temperatures. The only thing that destroys a processor is the heat which is a consequence of the high voltage. As long as I can keep the temperatures down under stress the life of the processor will always be the same, but operating to a higher frequency, hence a faster processing. Any processor could be easily damaged by simply applying stress tests with just a stock cooler installed on. I don't have the right cooling system right now but I'm sure even 1.8V could be applied as long as the temperatures are kept within safe boundaries. That's my theory right now.
 

zx128k

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Here is the thing with fear the processor will become degraded. Technically it doesn't really matter how much voltage you give to that processor as long as you keep it at low temperatures. The only thing that destroys a processor is the heat which is a consequence of the high voltage. As long as I can keep the temperatures down under stress the life of the processor will always be the same, but operating to a higher frequency, hence a faster processing. Any processor could be easily damaged by simply applying stress tests with just a stock cooler installed on. I don't have the right cooling system right now but I'm sure even 1.8V could be applied as long as the temperatures are kept within safe boundaries. That's my theory right now.
1.45volts vcore I would guess would required phase change cooling. 1.8 voltages vcore LN2 (I think above 1.8 volts is death).

Voltage is what causes the damage, by causing too much heat, causing transistors to malfunction/die, the destruction of traces by electromygration or the break down of insulting materials causing a short. power dyn = cfv^2 so voltage is the biggest part of the equation.

Constant heat cycling can cause failure and also oxide breakdown.


I have a 3800x and I get over 11000 time spy cpu just overclocking the RAM/IF 3800/1900.

https://www.3dmark.com/spy/10743799

It's just 300 point for the core overclock and in games you will boost to 4.4GHz anyway making a 4.4GHz all cores overclock pointless. I am gpu bound with a 2080. So its not a big deal.

He talks about Ryzen vcore voltages after 39:40 mins.
 
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TechyInAZ

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1.4v is way way WAYYY to high.

I've already seen reddit posts with proven facts that Ryzen 2700X's from last gen 12nm start degrading at under 1.375v.

For 3rd Gen Ryzen, people are saying the max is 1.325v, so I'd really target 1.3v or lower.

But again, we have no absolute concrete facts. I would highly recommend you just run AutoOC and PBO, while less effective sometimes vs manual OCing, it will allow the chip to last much much longer.

Because with 3rd Gen Ryzen, the chip will fight degradation by overvolting the chip over time. This is default, stock operation. If you run manual OC, that gets taken away. (This is one reason why Precision Boost 2 can get away with WAY higher vcores vs what we can do with manual OCing.)
 
Feb 24, 2020
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Just an experiment. Honestly for everyday use is much better to run it at stock settings. Not much power gained anyway from overclocking.
 

zx128k

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Just an experiment. Honestly for everyday use is much better to run it at stock settings. Not much power gained anyway from overclocking.
If you don't care about keeping the cpu for a number of years, then you could overclock to 4.4GHz all cores under 1.4 volts. Keep the cpu cool with an AIO or full custom water loop and wait to see what happens. See if it degrades.

Overclocking to 4.3GHz on water is pointless, you are about 25-50Mhz away in most heavy benchmarks like time spy cpu. Stock its 11300-11400 depends on the ambient temps (cold weather https://www.3dmark.com/spy/10756411 11500. With PBO scalar x10 you can get 113000-11500 time spy cpu score,depending on ambient temps. 50Mhz = 100 points for me. 11900 is what I get at 4.5GHz all cores (bench run). 11800 4.45GHz and 11700 4.4GHz. 11500 4.3GHz

The most important part of overclocking the 3800x is getting an IF 1900 overclock and then get really good RAM that will let you have the best timings at 3800. The perfect 4.5GHz all cores overclock with IF 1900 and sick RAM is 11.9-12k time spy cpu. If you tune the RAM (b-die can do 1.8volt+ if you limit the amount of ram windows uses) then a bench run over 12k is possible.

If the 3800x did 4.5GHz all cores Intel would be dead performance wise.
 
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zx128k

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So I sent an email to AMD. I should have worded it better.

To:@amd.com;@amd.com
CC:
Sent:25.02.20 20:20:40
Subject:3800x safe voltages

The internet is full of questions about the safe overclocking values for cpu core voltages. Some people feel a constant 1.45volts are safe and others believe that you have to find your FIT voltage for your cpu. Some people follow caseking and run up to 1.4 volts. Others have that 1.325volts or 1.35 volts are safe. I am the only guy running stock with as much cooling as reasonably possible. 360 rad and all copper water block. The people advising FIT voltages are stating you should run prime95 8k fft with pbo enabled and that will tell you your FIT voltage for your cpu. It should be a value in the range 1.306-1.344 volts. Other have added to this by stating you have a FIT voltage in the above range and also a Fmax for this voltage. That every percentage you increase your frequency you are also required to reduce your FIT voltage by the same percentage. This is so current can remain the same. I know you most likely don't support overclocking but what recommendations and information would you be willing to share.

The gods at AMD replied with,

Thanks for the email.

Please be informed that the maximum safe temperature for Ryzen 3800X is 95 Degree C as of temperature is 1.426 V .

Thanks for contacting AMD.

In order to update this service request, please respond without deleting or modifying the service request reference number in the email subject or in the email correspondence below.

Please Note: This service request will automatically close if we do not receive a response within 10 days and cannot be reopened.

If it is not feasible to respond within 10 days, feel free to open a new service request and reference this ticket for continued support.

Best regards,

AMD Global Customer Care
 
Feb 24, 2020
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If you don't care about keeping the cpu for a number of years, then you could overclock to 4.4GHz all cores under 1.4 volts. Keep the cpu cool with an AIO or full custom water loop and wait to see what happens. See if it degrades.

Overclocking to 4.3GHz on water is pointless, you are about 25-50Mhz away in most heavy benchmarks like time spy cpu. Stock its 11300-11400 depends on the ambient temps (cold weather https://www.3dmark.com/spy/10756411 11500. With PBO scalar x10 you can get 113000-11500 time spy cpu score,depending on ambient temps. 50Mhz = 100 points for me. 11900 is what I get at 4.5GHz all cores (bench run). 11800 4.45GHz and 11700 4.4GHz. 11500 4.3GHz

The most important part of overclocking the 3800x is getting an IF 1900 overclock and then get really good RAM that will let you have the best timings at 3800. The perfect 4.5GHz all cores overclock with IF 1900 and sick RAM is 11.9-12k time spy cpu. If you tune the RAM (b-die can do 1.8volt+ if you limit the amount of ram windows uses) then a bench run over 12k is possible.

If the 3800x did 4.5GHz all cores Intel would be dead performance wise.
Yes indeed at 4.4GHz and 1.4v the cpu is stable. It's also stable at 4.45GZ and 1.45v. However I'm a little worry 1.45v it's too much for 3800x and degradation will be quite fast. I'm not a fan of overclocking either but I was doing it for experimental purposes only. I just bought a 360 AIO from Enermax. Only 5c reduce compared to a Synthe Ninja 5. Honestly, I was expecting way better performance from a 360 water cooling. Not there.
 

zx128k

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Found this from AMD as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ck6bji/_/evlt3gh View: https://old.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ck6bji/all_this_confusion_about_voltages_and/evlt3gh/?context=3


FACTORY SOCKET POWER LIMITS
  • 95W-105W Processors: 142W
  • 65W Processors: 88W
FACTORY CURRENT LIMIT FOR THERMALLY-CONSTRAINED VRMs (TDC)
  • 95W-105W Processors: 95A
  • 65W Processors: 60A
FACTORY CURRENT LIMIT FOR ELECTRICALLY-CONSTRAINED VRMs (EDC)
  • 95W-105W Processors: 140A
  • 65W Processors: 90A
TEMPERATURE LIMIT
  • 95C
STOCK VOLTAGE RANGE
  • 0.200V - 1.500V
Q: WHAT VOLTAGE IS SAFE?

A: The one the CPU picks on its own. The firmware is actively monitoring and managing more chip health data than you can possibly imagine or digest--every second--to ensure performance is being reliably maximized for n cores under load at y temperature for x time. Stepping in to fix a static vcore, because you "feel" something about what the CPU is doing on its own, or you misread what someone said on the internet, won't help you. It will likely subtract performance (reduced Vmax = reduced perf), and it will likely raise the average voltage the chip experiences over a 24H period vs. what it will self-manage to on its own accord (you've disabled idle voltages). If the purpose of setting a manual vcore was to reduce voltage, you missed: you actually just raised the average voltage.

OKAY, BUT WHAT ABOUT OVERCLOCKING?

A: Experiment. Just like every other processor. There are some very smart people doing this work out there. ;)
 
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Voltage is what causes the damage, by causing too much heat, causing transistors to malfunction/die, the destruction of traces by electromygration or the break down of insulting materials causing a short. power dyn = cfv^2 so voltage is the biggest part of the equation.
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That's a mis-statement. First: go read up on Black's Equation . Voltage isn't even a component: it's current density and heat. Yes, voltage can induce current but high enough current even with low voltage and a high thermal state induces electromigration just the same. By the same token, if thermal state is low enough even a high voltage wouldn't be harmful. Voltage in that case would be limited by the stress tolerance of the silicon, the point at which it can punch through a die-electric, not electro-migration.

I also think you've not completely followed what BZ was getting on about in that linked video, and the one following it. As an overclocker, your primary concern should be to keep temperature in control and keeping voltage as low as you can (at a given frequency, without instability) is the way to achieve it. You can't really control current, it's the inevitable consequence of the process and the silicon quality.
 
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zx128k

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That's a mis-statement. First: go read up on Black's Equation . Voltage isn't even a component: it's current density and heat. Yes, voltage can induce current but high enough current even with low voltage, at a high thermal state, induces electromigration just the same. By the same token, if thermal state is low enough even a high voltage wouldn't be harmful. Voltage in that case would be limited by the stress tolerance of the silicon, the point at which it can punch through die-electrics.

I also think you've not completely followed what BZ was getting on about in that linked video, and the one following it. As an overclocker, your primary concern should be to keep temperature in control and keeping voltage as low as you can (at a given frequency, without instability) is the way to achieve it. You can't really control current, it's the inevitable consequence of the process and the silicon quality.
Voltage is a component, its the energy source. Stating the energy source does not affect temperature or current is clearly false. Power=V^2/R in basic electronics. Power dyn = V^2cf voltage is clearly part of the equation. Voltage and current are not independent from one another. You can damage components just via thermal cycling alone.

Electromigration occurs when an electric field (voltage difference) is present. Electromigration is exacerbated by high current densities and the Joule heating of the conductor. Due to difficulty of testing under real conditions, the Black's equation is used to predict the life span of integrated circuits. To use the Black's equation, the component is put through high temperature operating life (HTOL) testing. The component's expected life span under real conditions is extrapolated from data gathered during the testing.

I won't entertain another such post.
 
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Electromigration occurs when an electric field (voltage difference) is present.
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"Electromigration occurs when some of the momentum of a moving electron is transferred to a nearby activated ion. This causes the ion to move from its original position. Over time this force knocks a significant number of atoms far from their original positions. A break or gap can develop in the conducting material, preventing the flow of electricity."
REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

moving electron = current flow

Of course a voltage difference would be present, how else can the current be induced to flow. But it's not the voltage difference itself that does it, it's the current density, the number of moving electrons, exacerbated by temperature which makes the electrons move faster. Voltage and current concurrently describe the heat being generated, that obviously makes it desireable to lower it.
 
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zx128k

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"Electromigration occurs when some of the momentum of a moving electron is transferred to a nearby activated ion. This causes the ion to move from its original position. Over time this force knocks a significant number of atoms far from their original positions. A break or gap can develop in the conducting material, preventing the flow of electricity."

REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

moving electron = current flow
The information I proved is from the same source. You just agreed and disagreed with your own source. I have a right not to be harassed under the laws of my country.
 
.... I have a right not to be harassed under the laws of my country.
LOL so is disagreeing with and attempting to correct someone harrassment in your country? If so, you don't have to read this or any other of my posts. This is strictly for the use of others who may be mislead.

You're not understanding your reference to the source. Yes, an electric field (difference of potential) is present, it has to be or a current would not flow. That doesn't make it the cause of electromigration. It's like saying 'reproduction occurs in the presence of oxygen'. Yes, the organisms need the oxygen to survive but it's not what makes it happen.
 
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Feb 24, 2020
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1.4v is way way WAYYY to high.

I've already seen reddit posts with proven facts that Ryzen 2700X's from last gen 12nm start degrading at under 1.375v.

For 3rd Gen Ryzen, people are saying the max is 1.325v, so I'd really target 1.3v or lower.

But again, we have no absolute concrete facts. I would highly recommend you just run AutoOC and PBO, while less effective sometimes vs manual OCing, it will allow the chip to last much much longer.

Because with 3rd Gen Ryzen, the chip will fight degradation by overvolting the chip over time. This is default, stock operation. If you run manual OC, that gets taken away. (This is one reason why Precision Boost 2 can get away with WAY higher vcores vs what we can do with manual OCing.)

Honestly, I dont even know why PBO is an option because it makes things worse. I prefer to manually OC the cpu. For example in my case with ryzen 7 3800x there is no point to OC it at 4.2 because it already reaches that with all cores in a stress test. The idea is to go to 4.25 or above, frequency that cannot be reached in a stress test in stock form. I reached 4.45GHz with 1.45v and stable. I didn't want to go higher in voltage than that. However, I noticed in CPUID that VID reaches 1.5v sometimes which makes me believe that's a voltage well supported by this cpu. On the safe side it's better to listen what the engineers from AMD advice us and not go over 1.42v.
 
Feb 24, 2020
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Care to share where you got that advice from AMD?
It was posted by zx128k. It's a valid one I guess. Basically zx128 says that electromigration happens when the amperage increases due to high voltage applied to the cpu and doesn't really matter how cool one keeps the processor the degradation still happens because of the high current induced which causes to displace ions and knock down atoms. You say that as long as one keeps the dissipated heat caused by the high current within acceptable limits degradation doesn't take place. Of course dissipated heat is caused by high amperage which is direct proportional with the voltage. If you raise one the other one automatically raises. I was under the same impression that as long as the processor is properly cooled doesn't matter the voltage. I'm in doubt right now. Which one is right?
 
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.. I was under the same impression that as long as the processor is properly cooled doesn't matter the voltage. I'm in doubt right now. Which one is right?
It's both current AND temperature. The way to reduce temperature at a given clock without changing cooling is to lower voltage since (voltage * current) = power / heat.

As far as voltage, the only thing I've ever seen from AMD about a safe voltage is to keep it in auto, let the processor determine what is safe for itself. Left to itself, it automatically reduces voltage, AND clocks, to safe levels based on temperature. If you've ever heavily stressed a Zen2 processor at a heavy load (like Prime95, small FFT, AVX) in full auto, no PBO, you might find it lowering voltage down as far as 1.2 volts, with a clock speed right at or just above it's spec'd base frequency. That's about the best way to figure what AMD considers safest. Some call it the FIT voltage and different for each processor, programmed at manufacture based on silicon performance in binning tests.

Go watch some overclocking on LN2 (there's quite a few techtube videos). They'll raise voltage as high as the VRM controller allows...even modifying it to allow voltages way above the safety limits. That can be 1.55 - 1.6 maybe more even. The processors can draw 200+ amps current, at 5+Ghz. How can that be safe? even for just few minutes to demonstrate operation and benchmarks? You can be sure they don't want to degrade their processors...many times they're 'gold samples' representing the best silicon they could find after many hours of testing and sorting. They need them operating as expected for their competitions.

The answer is, of course: they're maintained at a temperature of -100C or more on LN2. So electro-migration is being held to an absolute minimum at the extremely high current densities they're operating under.
 
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