[SOLVED] I need help getting ram to 3600mhz

LordMikeus

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To start with it's worth mentioning I'm completely new to overclocking and most of it baffles me. I've been trying a lot of things to get my RAM to 3600mhz as that's why I bought it but I could really use some help. Reading around it may actually be better to stop at 3200 or 3400 and aim for lowest latency or something but I have no idea so if I'm wrong aiming for 3600 then please guide me in getting the RAM in it's best place.

I have a b450 Tomahawk Max with a Ryzen 5 3600x processor. As far as I know, they should be fine for getting 3600mhz.
My RAM is Viper Steel Series DDR4 32GB (2 x 16GB) 3600MHz Kit. Says on the RAM CL18 and 1.35V. Patriot support tells me my RAM sticks are Samsung B-Die after I sent them a pic of the RAM label. I asked after reading comments saying it was Hynix CJR or something. It seemed based on review on both the amazon page and found elsewhere that the RAM was actually really good, worked a charm and other people with even the same setup as me more or less have had success although they probably know what they're doing :D

Now I'll run through the stuff I tried as best I remember it.
First was just using the optimised defaults of my BIOS and turning on A-XMP. I tried profiles 1 and 2 but both meant by PC wouldn't even boot and needed a CMOS clear. I did this by taking out the Mobo battery.
Then I tried using the DRAM calculator and phaiphoon but that also ended up with a CMOS clear.
Next I tried some advice from Patriot Support. This included making sure RAM was in the right place (It is of course), BIOS was up to date (It wasn't but is now of course), using optomised defaults and XMP (I did this again just incase and still needed CMOS), then working my way up with defaults from 2400 mhz. I got to around 3400mhz before I started getting a freeze at boot or a BSOD. 3200mhz seemed to be fine using just basic XMP. I did try messing with some voltages here but it was hard to be sure on many, I mostly tried just DRAM voltage up at 1.35 to 1.45 but still just BSOD on 3400mhz.
Patriot support then asked me to try some profiles. I continues to use defaults except what they asked me to change here:
  • 3466MHz (18-26-26-46) 1.4v
  • 3466MHz (18-26-26-46) 1.45v
  • 3466MHz (20-26-26-46) 1.4v
  • 3466MHz (20-26-26-46) 1.45v
All of these got me nowhere, froze at boot. I then tried changing the SOC up to 1.1 out of curiosity and things I'd read and seemed to get to desktop but quickly got a BSOD.
So then I went on a bigger adventure. I made use of this guide https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHelper/blob/master/DDR4 OC Guide.md to try and get somewhere. I tried to follow as much of it as I understood and was comfortable to do. This includes:
All of "Finding a Baseline", again, stable until about 3200mhz. Now though I was trying the timings recommended in the guide and changing some voltages like DRAM and SOC. I did see some for VPPD and VPPG but wasn't entirely sure what to change these to. I didn't touch CPU voltages at all or anything to do with my CPU really. I tried setting things like FLCK to half RAM frequency and so on although some settings in the BIOS made little sense to me. Even choosing to edit SOC required me to first set something else to AMD Overclock or something like that.
I might have missed some stuff. Over the past few days I've tried a lot of combinations, even tried with the Game Boost on but that seemed to make things 2T which I believe is bad? And I still BSOD'd during a stress test anyway for 3400mhz.

It has all been incredibly complicated and I'm struggling and confused. Been trying for days now and so I've came to the experts. Any help is appreciated and I'll provide any other info I can and try recommendations and so on.
As a side note, I did use OCCT to stress the ram at 3200 mhz as mentioned in the guide, I've also done a memtest86 USB thing to check the RAM is okay at bios defaults and I have AIDA64 for benchmarking if needed. I do have Ryzen Master but read more things saying to just do everything in BIOS and just use it for reading timings or something. No idea how to use it anyway!

Thanks again for any help!
 
Looking at your Thaiphoon screenshot, those certified timings indicate a terrible bin of B-die, or straight-up fake B-die. I'd return the kit to Patriot just looking at that. Get G.Skills. They always work with AMD, no matter what die they use. Running a 3600MT/s kit at 3800CL16 Hynix dies myself.
 
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boju

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So when you tried Dram Calculator, did you take a photo of it and try inputting all values possible in Bios manually? Thaiphoon burner will give you the information needed to configure Dram Calculator properly to get the values. Thaiphoon will also indentify IC chips used on your ram.

View: https://youtu.be/1GTekAB1Zzc


Not sure how thoroughly you tried Dram Calculator to manually set ram. Thought to check. Xmp is an automated preset feature and may not always work. Manual may not always work either but if go the Dram Calculator route, ram configuration must be set to manual (Xmp off) and input values DC suggests.

Try Gear down mode also in conjunction with Xmp or manual. Think it's found under command rate? Not sure but hopefully it's an option where 1T and 2T is. Gear down mode is a setting inbetween. It might help.

Make sure ram are in 2nd and 4th slots from cpu.
 

LordMikeus

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So when you tried Dram Calculator, did you take a photo of it and try inputting all values possible in Bios manually? Thaiphoon burner will give you the information needed to configure Dram Calculator properly to get the values. Thaiphoon will also indentify IC chips used on your ram.

View: https://youtu.be/1GTekAB1Zzc


Not sure how thoroughly you tried Dram Calculator to manually set ram. Thought to check. Xmp is an automated preset feature and may not always work. Manual may not always work either but if go the Dram Calculator route, ram configuration must be set to manual (Xmp off) and input values DC suggests.

Try Gear down mode also in conjunction with Xmp or manual. Think it's found under command rate? Not sure but hopefully it's an option where 1T and 2T is. Gear down mode is a setting inbetween. It might help.

Make sure ram are in 2nd and 4th slots from cpu.
I did take a photo and try manually inputting every value. I tried this using Safe as the first option and then tried both Min and Rec values inside that. I do believe I had XMP turned on though so I will try without it turned on while using DRAM values. Thaiphoon failed to recognise the IC chips although it did catch manufacturer as Samsung which is why I believe the Patriot support team when they told be it is Samsung B-Die.
Gear Down has been tricky. If I set things to 1T then the option to mess with Gear Down seperatly is disabled. I can either do 1T, 2T or Gear Down in one setting for timings, I think this is where Command Rate is. A seperate setting specifically for gear down locks itself in auto if I go to 1T and can't be changed. I will try get it where the DRAM calculator wants things to be though and see how that goes with XMP off, don't believe I did that.

Yes, my RAM is in slots 2 and 4. The same slots previous RAM has used and what is recommended by my mobo manual.
 

LordMikeus

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I haven't tried 1 stick yet. Do I just take 1 out and then follow all the DRAM calc stuff again with 1 DIMM module selected. On top of that, DRAM PCB Revision isn't included in that tutorial but when I import XMP details it becomes manual and gives me different values to when I just pick A3/A2/B2. Should I be using the imported html from thaiphoon or stick to A3/A2/B2. I can always try both I guess.
I haven't tried just 1 stick. Should I try 1 stick with XMP first or 1 stick with DRAM calc at 1 DIMM module? Dunno if there are dif steps for 1 stick.
 

LordMikeus

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No, Thaiphoon just says 16GB / 1 Die.
Okay, I just tried 6 variations of settings based on the 2 different value sets given to me from DRAM Calc. 1 value set was using the html report and 1 was using the A3/A2/B2 option for PCB revision. I'll also attach photos of the settings it gave me along with what results I had.
First is what Thaiphoon shows me (hoping imgur urls work):
View: https://imgur.com/a/twFdNeA


This is the values the DRAM calculator gave me with A3/A2/B2 in PCB, so not using the report I guess:
View: https://imgur.com/a/T8COQid


Using this, I first tried all those values and the minimum voltages. I then tried recommended voltages. I then tried minimum voltages with XMP enabled. All 3 of these gave the same result; before reaching bios an error message appeared saying "Memory overclocking fail. f1 to Bios" or along those lines.

Next is the values from DRAM after importing the report, you can see ut auto changes PCB to Manual when a report is imported:
View: https://imgur.com/a/MI41tu1


I tried the same thing as above. Min volt, rec volt and then min with XMP. I had the same results too except that rec volt required a CMOS clear as the PC wouldn't get anywhere. I did see a mix of boot loops throughout all 6 results tho but I have no idea if that was just due to it applying the settings. Sorry if the pictures are terrible, more so if they don't work which I guess I'll find out after posting this.

I guess next is trying the same thing but with 1 RAM stick selected in the calc and just the 1 in PC in A2 slot? The DRAM calc and Thaiphoon didn't seem to get me anywhere with the values they give. Unless perhaps I did something wrong which hopefully other people can point out for me :D
 
No, Thaiphoon just says 16GB / 1 Die.
Okay, I just tried 6 variations of settings based on the 2 different value sets given to me from DRAM Calc. 1 value set was using the html report and 1 was using the A3/A2/B2 option for PCB revision. I'll also attach photos of the settings it gave me along with what results I had.
First is what Thaiphoon shows me (hoping imgur urls work):
View: https://imgur.com/a/twFdNeA


This is the values the DRAM calculator gave me with A3/A2/B2 in PCB, so not using the report I guess:
View: https://imgur.com/a/T8COQid


Using this, I first tried all those values and the minimum voltages. I then tried recommended voltages. I then tried minimum voltages with XMP enabled. All 3 of these gave the same result; before reaching bios an error message appeared saying "Memory overclocking fail. f1 to Bios" or along those lines.

Next is the values from DRAM after importing the report, you can see ut auto changes PCB to Manual when a report is imported:
View: https://imgur.com/a/MI41tu1


I tried the same thing as above. Min volt, rec volt and then min with XMP. I had the same results too except that rec volt required a CMOS clear as the PC wouldn't get anywhere. I did see a mix of boot loops throughout all 6 results tho but I have no idea if that was just due to it applying the settings. Sorry if the pictures are terrible, more so if they don't work which I guess I'll find out after posting this.

I guess next is trying the same thing but with 1 RAM stick selected in the calc and just the 1 in PC in A2 slot? The DRAM calc and Thaiphoon didn't seem to get me anywhere with the values they give. Unless perhaps I did something wrong which hopefully other people can point out for me :D
Are you sure you have Samsung B die memory? It is kind of expensive so you probably would know if you bought it
 
Potato memory controller. Enable GDM. Try 1.2v on the SOC. AMD only guarantees 3200MT/s but almost all can go at least to 3600MT/s. Make sure you have them in the right slots. Forget the DRAM calculator for now. I'd try everything AUTO X.M.P. off first.
 

LordMikeus

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I've not had time to try 1 RAM stick yet but I'll try what Damric mentioned just now since that should be fairly quick. I'll set the RAM manually to 3600 and FLCK to 1800 I guess, leave XMP off, 1.2v SOC and enable GDM. Will update shortly if that works or not and what results I get. I'm confident the RAM is in the correct slots. Going left to right with the board upright and RAM slots in top right of the board, I have the RAM in slots 2 and 4.
As for the Die being Samsung B-Die, that is based on what Patriot Support told me after I asked them and sent a pic of the RAM label. I know nothing myself so I trusted that info, can't see why they'd lie or be wrong since it's their RAM.
 

LordMikeus

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Potato memory controller. Enable GDM. Try 1.2v on the SOC. AMD only guarantees 3200MT/s but almost all can go at least to 3600MT/s. Make sure you have them in the right slots. Forget the DRAM calculator for now. I'd try everything AUTO X.M.P. off first.
I tried leaving FLCK auto just incase as you didn't mention this and things froze at boot. With FLCK set to 1800mhz on the next attempt I actually managed to get to desktop which is a huge step up from needing a CMOS clear. So that advice you gave was definitely great! I sadly still got a BSOD nearly instantly after putting in my PC passcode and seeing the desktop itself but hadn't expected to even get that far. Any further advice on what to try?
 
1.2v on the SOC? Jesus. And disabling GDM is asking for trouble especially on a weak IMC. I could get the tightest timings possible on my 4 stick B-Die kit with a 3900X, yet would not even POST after disabling GDM requiring a CMOS reset. Not worth the hassle for that extra what, 0.3 ns?

For me, what worked best was XMP with tRFC halved. Same latency as with all timings tightened, more stability. The default tRFC value is insane.

Also, the DRAM calculator isn't plug-and-play magic - it's a baseline. Some calculator recommendations are insane, at least in my case. I also found it's very optimistic with voltage. It's supposed to give you recommended settings for you to work your way through, not just inputting all settings it gives you with a 100% guarantee of it working. Sometimes, it works like that, but you'd have to be extremely lucky.
 
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Looking at your Thaiphoon screenshot, those certified timings indicate a terrible bin of B-die, or straight-up fake B-die. I'd return the kit to Patriot just looking at that. Get G.Skills. They always work with AMD, no matter what die they use. Running a 3600MT/s kit at 3800CL16 Hynix dies myself.
 
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Karadjgne

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It's not B-die. All B-die is Cas 14/16 for 3200/3600. Cas 18 will be A-die, D-die or Z-die, with the highest likelihood being D-die.

Which basically puts it no better or no worse than any other ram ic's from SkHynix, Micron, Nanya etc

You should have the latest beta bios. It has the updated Agesa, there were multiple reports of ppl having compatibility issues with the last 'stable' bios version.
 

LordMikeus

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1.2v on the SOC? Jesus. And disabling GDM is asking for trouble especially on a weak IMC. I could get the tightest timings possible on my 4 stick B-Die kit with a 3900X, yet would not even POST after disabling GDM requiring a CMOS reset. Not worth the hassle for that extra what, 0.3 ns?

For me, what worked best was XMP with tRFC halved. Same latency as with all timings tightened, more stability. The default tRFC value is insane.

Also, the DRAM calculator isn't plug-and-play magic - it's a baseline. Some calculator recommendations are insane, at least in my case. I also found it's very optimistic with voltage. It's supposed to give you recommended settings for you to work your way through, not just inputting all settings it gives you with a 100% guarantee of it working. Sometimes, it works like that, but you'd have to be extremely lucky.
I'm not aware on suitable values for SOC and so forth or why disabling GDM is bad and good. I do understand that the DRAM Calc is not an end all solution but that's why I came here, a lot of it is confusing for me and I really struggle to optomise in any direction towards what I'm after.
I'll check the auto procODT with both XMP on and off after I finish work and then edit this reply to include that.

EDIT
I can't seem to find the procODT value when it's running on auto. I checked the BIOS and Ryzen Master but couldn't see what it was set to.
 
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LordMikeus

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Looking at your Thaiphoon screenshot, those certified timings indicate a terrible bin of B-die, or straight-up fake B-die. I'd return the kit to Patriot just looking at that. Get G.Skills. They always work with AMD, no matter what die they use. Running a 3600MT/s kit at 3800CL16 Hynix dies myself.
I bought my RAM on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B088KSRW4S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1
I don't think I can return this too easily for a refund after opening it and throwing it into the PC. Perhaps I could give it a go tho if it seems unreasonable to get to 3600mhz on Viper RAM. Reviews on that amazon page do make it seem like others have had success though and the RAM itself isn't bad. There are some saying it's actually Hynix CJR or something though, perhaps that's the case?
 

LordMikeus

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It's not B-die. All B-die is Cas 14/16 for 3200/3600. Cas 18 will be A-die, D-die or Z-die, with the highest likelihood being D-die.

Which basically puts it no better or no worse than any other ram ic's from SkHynix, Micron, Nanya etc

You should have the latest beta bios. It has the updated Agesa, there were multiple reports of ppl having compatibility issues with the last 'stable' bios version.
If it's not B-Die I am completely unable to say what it is myself but if there's something I can do to find out for sure then I am happy to do so. I know nothing about SkHynix, Micron etc and what is good or bad so can't be sure if you're saying the RAM brand itself is the problem or not here. :D
I can happily update the bios to the beta build though after work and see if that helps. I'll try doing that and then running the RAM at 3600mhz again.

EDIT
I updated the bios to latest beta and then tried to XMP. I did manage to get to the desktop but then quickly got a BSOD. An improvement from CMOS clearing though
 
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LordMikeus

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They can program the RAM to read anything on Thaiphoon, so yes it could be different dies. If it's less than 30 days you can return it to Amazon. If it is longer RMA back to Patriot.
I'm still well within the 30 days. I could probably get hold of some G.Skill Ripjaws at the same price too more or less if that would be more suitable. Still 32gb and 3600mhz. Is this the best path for me to take?
 

Karadjgne

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Best? That's kinda subjective. With the bios update, you got considerably further into the boot process, so the question is now how much more effort are you willing to put into the ram to get it stable at its rated speeds. Anything you tried prior to the bios update could need to be repeated as you've changed the parameters with the Agesa addition.

SoC 1.2v is max. But by rights you shouldn't need to be doing any of this, it's advanced procedures for gaining more out of already stable ram. When you can answer the 'is it worth it' question to yourself, you'll get the answer to 'which is the best path'.
 

LordMikeus

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Best? That's kinda subjective. With the bios update, you got considerably further into the boot process, so the question is now how much more effort are you willing to put into the ram to get it stable at its rated speeds. Anything you tried prior to the bios update could need to be repeated as you've changed the parameters with the Agesa addition.

SoC 1.2v is max. But by rights you shouldn't need to be doing any of this, it's advanced procedures for gaining more out of already stable ram. When you can answer the 'is it worth it' question to yourself, you'll get the answer to 'which is the best path'.
If getting the Ripjaws would just mean turning XMP on and being done at 3600mhz then I'd happily go that nice easy route rather than all the pain of the DRAM calculator while not knowing the actual Die. And definitly prefer it to my complete guesswork at overclocking RAM. However I won't be looking at returning the RAM till tomorrow at least. If I could get the Viper working by then I'd be plenty happy to stay as is and I'm happy to try a bunch of stuff for the remainder of my day. I just don't know entirely what to try. If I use the Calc, what Die do I pick? I'll be able to do some of the basic attemps like trying XMP off and so on right now which I'll get started on, but the complicated stuff I'm not sure where to start and I really don't want the pain of trying every die, value and voltage combo. If I was given a place to start though, I'd give it a go.
 

Karadjgne

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Open Bios. Hit F5 to return everything to Factory Optimized Default settings. Enable XMP. Reboot to bios. Take pictures of each Bios page that looks like it has anything to do with Ram settings or timings or voltages etc.

Hit F5 to return the Bios to Factory Optimized Default settings, Reboot to Bios.

Now check each page in comparison to the pictures you took, and manually insert any changed values, do not enable XMP again. This is a manual OC to bring the same values as XMP, without the hidden settings that are applied in bios that are not visible.

Not sure why exactly, but often a manual OC will work, where an auto setting via XMP does not.
 

LordMikeus

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Open Bios. Hit F5 to return everything to Factory Optimized Default settings. Enable XMP. Reboot to bios. Take pictures of each Bios page that looks like it has anything to do with Ram settings or timings or voltages etc.

Hit F5 to return the Bios to Factory Optimized Default settings, Reboot to Bios.

Now check each page in comparison to the pictures you took, and manually insert any changed values, do not enable XMP again. This is a manual OC to bring the same values as XMP, without the hidden settings that are applied in bios that are not visible.

Not sure why exactly, but often a manual OC will work, where an auto setting via XMP does not.
Okay, I had a go of this. Sometimes the bios doesn't show a value when it's set to auto so I feel some stuff that probably needed changing wasn't but I had a go with what I had in the pics. I got a BSOD right after bios, didn't reach desktop. I'll attach the pics I took of the bios with XMP on so you can see what had values and what didn't. If it had a value visible, I edited it manually when I tried a manual OC.

View: https://imgur.com/a/EVYeI8V


I could start looking at getting hold of some Ripjaws today if you recommend it. Or should I keep trying with the Vipers?
 
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