I think I might use Pascal for my next IF game...

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....anyone have any experience using Pascal and can comment on it's
effectiveness?

That, and maybe Lisp or Python. I want to use an obscure language so
that it's a challenge.

Paul
 

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I would think that writing a good game would be a challenge regardless
of the language used.

~Mick
 
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dunric@yahoo.com wrote:
> ...anyone have any experience using Pascal and can comment on it's
> effectiveness?
>
> That, and maybe Lisp or Python. I want to use an obscure language so
> that it's a challenge.

I suggested Logo to you a couple of years ago. Ever have a go at it
yet?
Logo's list processing will make it easy. Couple that with the graphics
capability, and you have an excellent adventure language - list
processing & graphics prowess.

Ben
 
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On 14 Jun 2005 17:58:01 -0700, dunric@yahoo.com wrote:

> That, and maybe Lisp or Python. I want to use an obscure language so
> that it's a challenge.

Python or Ruby aren't "obscure", but quite nice, easy to learn, readable
scripting languages. Ruby is "more" OO than Python, so perhaps it's better
suited for IF, and not yet as popular as Python. (

If you want "obscure", try Haskell or Euphoria.

M.
--
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http://www.clamwin.com/
 
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But... "why reinvent the wheel?"

Actum Ne Agas: "Do not do a thing already done."

If you want to create a game, then your focus should be on the game...
not the implementation. People who want to build a house generally
don't start the process by putting pine-nuts in the ground and adding
water...
 
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Mike Snyder wrote:
>
> My take is a little different. I say, re-invent the wheel if wheel design is
> what you like best. The problem is, Paul's home-made IF doesn't improve on
> the available alternatives, nor does he end up with a game engine (just a
> game). I think he likes solving programming problems more than he likes
> writing games. Just a theory.
>
> --- Mike.

I always figured Panks wrote games with obscure languages because:

a) He likes being different.

b) The games themselves aren't good enough to generate much interest
but if he writes them in an obscure language, they'll get more
attention than if he wrote them with Tads, Inform or something similar.


I imagine he's hard at work on his Ancient Sumerian Parser even now...
 
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"sundialsvc4" <gargle@sundialservices.com> wrote in message
news:1119646777.171311.134540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> But... "why reinvent the wheel?"
>
> Actum Ne Agas: "Do not do a thing already done."
>
> If you want to create a game, then your focus should be on the game...
> not the implementation. People who want to build a house generally
> don't start the process by putting pine-nuts in the ground and adding
> water...

My take is a little different. I say, re-invent the wheel if wheel design is
what you like best. The problem is, Paul's home-made IF doesn't improve on
the available alternatives, nor does he end up with a game engine (just a
game). I think he likes solving programming problems more than he likes
writing games. Just a theory.

--- Mike.
 
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"Ancient Sumerian Parser" ?

That's a good one. :)

Actually, I write games in obscure languages because I enjoy the
challenge of creating works of interactive fiction in languages most
people wouldn't consider as a first (or even second or third)
alternative.

I have written adventure games in a variety of BASIC interpreters and
compilers, some archiac and others esoteric, including even Mini-BASIC
(see 'Dark Forest 1' and 'Dark Forest II' for examples of an IF game
being written in a glorified version of Tiny-BASIC -- e.g. without
string commands!)

HLA was anothe esoteric language, bordering on assembly language and C,
which peeked (peaked? :) my interest.

I believe C/C++ isn't much of a challenge. Anyone can write a game in
C. But HLA took several weeks to learn, and I needed the help of Frank
Kotler, Randall Hyde and Sevag Krikorian to even get the game engine up
and running. Note: By game engine, I mean: data structures, a la a
mystagogue version of a Scott Adams game.

Most of my games are so weird, and so bizarre, that I might as well be
a mystagogue IF-writer.

Paul

dwhyld@gmail.com wrote:
> Mike Snyder wrote:
> >
> > My take is a little different. I say, re-invent the wheel if wheel design is
> > what you like best. The problem is, Paul's home-made IF doesn't improve on
> > the available alternatives, nor does he end up with a game engine (just a
> > game). I think he likes solving programming problems more than he likes
> > writing games. Just a theory.
> >
> > --- Mike.
>
> I always figured Panks wrote games with obscure languages because:
>
> a) He likes being different.
>
> b) The games themselves aren't good enough to generate much interest
> but if he writes them in an obscure language, they'll get more
> attention than if he wrote them with Tads, Inform or something similar.
>
>
> I imagine he's hard at work on his Ancient Sumerian Parser even now...
 
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dwhyld@gmail.com wrote:
> I always figured Panks wrote games with obscure languages because:
>
> a) He likes being different.

<devils advocate>
There is a glut of good quality functional and playable games written in
modern IF authoring systems flooding the market. Paul is addressing the
imbalance.
</devils advocate>

What is interesting is the refusal to learn, create or use any dedicated
IF authoring system and the desire to produce 'Scott Adams' style games.
The interesting part is that Scott Adams used a dedicated IF authoring
system (his own) to write the games. There is a fallacy here, especially
considering that several early IF authors and companies either created
and/or used IF authoring systems or used and developed bespoke game engines.

Game engines develop over time and so does the quality of games using
them, but this only happens if you are using/writing/developing an engine.

> b) The games themselves aren't good enough to generate much interest
> but if he writes them in an obscure language, they'll get more
> attention than if he wrote them with Tads, Inform or something similar.

Many of Paul's games are written in BASIC variants, these are hardly
obscure. I would recommend that he uses a powerful modern procedural
BASIC such as, for instance, BBC BASIC. A language which if he switched
to and learned to write in a structured way he could certainly produce
better quality code. Paul's current programming style leaves much to be
desired and I believe that this is part of his failure to develop his
skills to the point where he can write easily maintainable, readable and
structured code. This also leads to the fact that unnecessarily complex,
unstructued spaghetti code writen in the style of a novice who never has
developed good programming practices is a nightmare to develop, debug or
improve to any significant end. His programming style and devotion to a
single game setting is a part of his failure to develop.

HLA (High-level assembler) is hardly obscure. What might be impressive
would be a game + engine written purely in assembler, but probably only
in the way that he would be one of the few people to do it in a modern
setting and only if it used more efficient algorithms. Currently Paul
produces bloated and very inefficient code.

I will say though to be fair that Paul should continue to write the
games he wants to write. I am sure that he has an audience but I, like
many others, write for myself.

Paul has the willingness, drive and desire to produce interactive
fiction. I believe that Paul has the potential to become a really good
IF author, but only if he is willing to become one.

If Paul expresses a desire to improve I say that we should help him, he
needs his code and algorithms reviewing aswell as the games themselves.
Even if the language is BASIC and not one of the modern IF authoring
systems we should support any desire to improve that he expresses.

> I imagine he's hard at work on his Ancient Sumerian Parser even now...

Funny you should say that...

Paul is currently writing Triple-Sec, a BASICesque language which
appears to be emminently suitable for writing dunric type games.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.lang.basic/browse_thread/thread/64c7b4f721ade1a/065fd05b51c55218

No doubt there will be a masterpiece from him coming soon.

Have fun,
Jon Ripley
--
http://jonripley.com/
 
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On 25 Jun 2005 11:06:15 -0700, dunric@yahoo.com wrote:

> HLA was anothe esoteric language, bordering on assembly language and C,
> which peeked (peaked? :) my interest.

"piqued" is the word you're looking for.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=peeked
1. To glance quickly.
2. To look or peer furtively, as from a place of concealment.
3. To be only partially visible, as if peering or emerging from hiding:
Tiny crocuses peeked through the snow.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=peaked
1. (one syllable) Ending in a peak; pointed: a peaked cap.
2. (two syllables) Having a sickly appearance: You're looking a little
peaked today.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=piqued
2. To provoke; arouse: The portrait piqued her curiosity.
 
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A bit unclear on the 'hack value' term used, but I am assuming the
value of a programming language used purely for esoteric reasons?

Paul
 
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In article <1119722775.651743.200240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<dunric@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Ancient Sumerian Parser" ?
>
>That's a good one. :)
>
>Actually, I write games in obscure languages because I enjoy the
>challenge of creating works of interactive fiction in languages most
>people wouldn't consider as a first (or even second or third)
>alternative.
>
In which you might consider COBOL, as (with possibly a handful of
exceptions) nobody writes COBOL without being paid for it. Every
other language I've seen mentioned in this thread has something of
a community of people who use it because they want to. (Actually,
I can't say that for Euphoria, since I've never heard of it before.)

It won't take that long to learn the language, but it will take longer
to get used to it. However, I can't think of a better language to
use if what you want is the exact opposite of hack value.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
 
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In article <1119891562.941228.98840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<dunric@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A bit unclear on the 'hack value' term used, but I am assuming the
>value of a programming language used purely for esoteric reasons?
>
"Hack value" is more like what inspires admiration and envy in born
programmers. They tend to have a low opinion of COBOL, and certainly
don't want to write in it, so something written in COBOL would have
negative hack value. Conversely, writing anything halfway useful in,
say, Intercal inspires admiration.




--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
 
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:00:21 GMT
Jon Ripley <news@jonripley.com> wrote:

:What might be impressive
:would be a game + engine written purely in assembler,

As it happens, in the days when the IBM PC was new, I wrote such an engine,
and my wife wrote about a dozen different game scripts for it. Just
recently, I decided to resurrect one of those games ("Castle Elsinore"),
and port it to Linux. As a result of this exercise, I am prepared to defend
the position that assembler is still an excellent language in which to
write game engines, and that most of the algorithms which I used 22 years
ago are still applicable.

If, as is most likely, you have never played 'Elsinore', you can download
the DOS version [elsinore.zip] or the ( Linux port [elsinore.tar] from my
web site: www.pacificsites.com/~ccrayne/clax86/

Please note that the Linux version is still in beta testing, and I would
appreciate bug reports from anyone who is willing to assist me in this
fashion.

The game itself is very much in the style of the original advent|colossal
caves|dungeon style and difficulty, although the parser is somewhat better.

-- Chuck