I'm sorry to keep bothering you but would those extra 12 threads really make a difference over the 6 cores that the 8600k already has? It seems a little overkill to me for gaming unless I'm missing something.
Ok, it's not an "extra" twelve threads. The 8600k has 6 cores, that's all. The 8700k has those exact same six cores, but it also has hyper threading, when means it can process twelve threads TOTAL, six cores + six hyperthreads = twelve threads total.
Skylake, Kaby Lake and Coffee lake are all built on the 14nm Intel process, so aside from some few optimizations, support for a few different instruction sets and the die shrinks that have decreased the TDP allowing for higher clocks, they are still all basically the same. The Coffee Lake chips can be considered as the fully matured, as optimized as it's going to get for 14nm version. That being said, like I already said, there isn't all THAT much difference in the "per core" performance.
Yes, the 8600k will give you two more cores than you have now, and that's a good thing, but are those two extra cores worth 300 dollars to you? I don't really think they are. Personally, I'd recommend just waiting for the next generation. BUT, if you're NOT going to do that, THEN at least move up to the 8700k so that you now have potentially DOUBLE the number of simultaneous threads that can be processed. With hyperthreads it really doesn't work out EXACTLY that way, because there is some give and take due to parallelism, so it's not truly as fast as, say, an actual twelve core CPU would be, but since it can address twelve separate instruction processes in the pipeline, it can process much more data than six cores alone could do.
All of this is assuming that the game, or application, or operating system, is capable of instructing the processor to utilize those features. Not all of them are, and some that are, are not WELL optimized for it.
So to get to the point of the question you asked, it depends. As I said earlier, if you multitask, with recording or streaming or running separate applications WHILE you are gaming, OR, if the game you are playing is well optimized to take advantage of hyperthreading or even all of the available cores for that matter, then you will see an increase in performance.
If it is not, then you won't, and it will not be worth it. It's not a question of overkill. It's a question of whether or not it can be utilized. VT utilizes a lot of threads, usually. Not every game will be the same, even in VR.
I guess my point is that I can see a point in an upgrade to the 8700k, for the purpose of ensuring that your system remains capable enough to keep up with the demands of games that will certainly grow increasingly more complex and will likely also increasingly take advantage of higher core/thread counts, so it will take somewhat longer before your system again becomes too aged to keep up.
With the 8600k however, it seems unlikely that it will offer that same benefit for an equal distance into the future, so it is probably not AS recommendable as the 8700k. Whether ANY of these scenarios makes ANY of these upgrade options worth forking over 300 dollars for a CPU and another 150 for a motherboard, it totally up to you.
Thank you for going out of your way to explain everything. I see your point now. If I'm going to be upgrading my system for the sake of making it last longer, I should at least get an I7. Do they sell 8700ks for 300 there? If so, I'm gonna have to look around for that. I have family in the states that might be able to help me ship it. It's around 400 usd here in Taiwan.
edit: new egg has it for over 400. I guess you meant the 8600k. Still I'll probably go for the 8700k.
I'm not sure how limited the supply is here. Intel cpus are made here (well at least my 6600k was) so that is probably why I always see it in stores. Pricing is exactly 400 when converted to usd so it's a little cheaper than over there. It wouldn't go down much more right?
IDK, the 7700k was selling for over four hundred dollars last year at this time, and right now it's selling for 326.00. A lot of that has to do with Ryzen though, but Ryzen hasn't affected the 8700k so I kind of doubt that they are discounting for that reason. Contrary to popular opinion I think it's simply because they have so many left to sell and there is no market for them now because the 8700k whoops on it in anything that really uses more cores/threads.
You can really get a feel for what games utilize it's additional cores and which ones don't at the following review. In stuff that doesn't care about more cores the 7700k actually beats the 8700k by a few fps or ties it, but in anything that does it distances itself a bit.
Kinda odd that the 7700k would beat the 8700k on anything. Well seeing how 4k gaming makes absolutely no difference by the cpu and I have yet to experience issues with vr, I'm leaning towards using my money now for the nzxt kraken x62 for my cpu. I'm running overclocked with a hyper 212x turbo at 4.5ghz with 1.37v. Temperatures are fine now since it's winter but in the summer I had to crank up the a/c. I was doing that anyways for the most part being how hot it gets here but some days I could of used a fan. I'm starting to even wonder if my cpu would hold me back even on volta at 4k. Don't get me wrong I really appreciate all of the time you put into trying to help but with the lack of vr benchmarks and the unconvincing 4k benchmarks, I'm starting to agree with you to wait until my cpu holds me back. It's a little depressing having nothing to upgrade to improve my fps but I guess that's what happens when the best gpu is a bottleneck. You had me at future proofing my system but then you also had a good point of waiting for 9th gen.
Ok here's what I am thinking. Seeing how the i7 7700k pairs up with the 8600k/8700k on some benchmarks I was thinking of upgrading to that. If I upgrade to the 7700k, I can use my current motherboard saving me the cost of having to purchase a new motherboard. Like you said before, I have to decide if the cost is worth it. This would be the least costly upgrade option and still give me somewhat of an fps boost. I also can use the money I saved on a motherboard to buy the nzxt kraken x62 so I can get a decent overclock on the cpu. I'm not sure how well my hyper 212x would do on an i7. What do you think?
Another question: what about frametimes? Forgot to mention that. Have you noticed your games playing smoother with hyperthreading on/off?
edit: I've hit my first cpu bottleneck. On the new hitman there is a huge crowd of people and my fps drops to the 50s even in 1080p. So I guess it is possible for an i5 to not be able to keep 60fps but just not often.
The Hyper 212 coolers are basic, entry level units. They are better than the stock coolers but they are bottom end for aftermarket. If you want better temps or a higher overclock, or a CPU with more cores, then you will absolutely want to upgrade to something better like the Cryorig H5 or R1, Noctua NH-U14S, Be Quiet Dark rock (many models), or something with better design. Also, your 212 is loud compared to other coolers and will be even louder on a CPU with more cores that is overclocked.
Yeah I was looking at the nzxt kraken x62. If I'm going to spend the money on another cooler, I want it to be significantly better than mine so I'm going with water cooling. I also like the design. I heard they fail quite often but just found out I get a 6 year warranty. So I guess I will be either swapping out my cpu and keeping my board for an i7 6700k or 7700k and buying the nzxt kraken x62 or just getting the cooler and keeping my 6600k until I really need to replace it. Still deciding but I will be making the upgrade sometime this month.
At least with a high end air cooler, you can use it through build after build after build, and there are no AIO coolers that can definitively show improved cooling performance over a good air cooler. The only real benefit, IMO, of an AIO cooler is aesthetics. Plus, if the air cooler fails out of warranty, you just buy a new fan. If the AIO fails, you buy a whole new cooler again. JMO.
It's a 280mm though. Also it has a 6 year warranty so I can just replace it for free if it breaks down. It seems like any of the more high performance air coolers are way too big and probably would get in the way of things or not fit.
Edit: I like the looks of the MSI Core Frozr L and it seems to outperform my hyper212x according to the tests done here:
Also doesn't seem too big either.
Well, everybody has to make their own choices and what works for one person might not be the best choice for the next guy. I use a Noctua NH-U14S on my firstname.lastname@example.orgGhz and it's neither loud nor is it in the way of anything. Uses only a single width heatsink and single fan and actually outperforms or comes very close to the performance of most of the big dual finstack heatsinks.
The Noctua NH-U14S and NH-U12S are the highest performing single fin stack coolers you can get, bar none. And they take up minimal room compared to the big air coolers. But I fully understand if you want to go with a liquid cooler. I would never do so myself. I've seen too many instances where the cooler failed, both on member and fellow moderator systems, as well as what I've seen on other sites. When that happens, if the failure is not at the radiator, and even then, if the radiator is not a front mounted configuration, some if not all of the rest of the hardware is going to get damaged when water leaks on it. Seen it, it's proven to happen, there is no question that it happens. Only question is, does it happen to you.
Lots of people use them and never have an issue. Others are not so lucky. I follow the first rule of electronics which states that water should never be allowed anywhere near electronics. It has worked out well for me. LOL.
I've heard great things about the noctua but I can't get over how ugly the fan is. If I had a closed build (no window on my chassis), I would go for it no questions asked. The others seem to be too bulky which leads me to the msi. Fans aren't repulsive, has a okay design and still seems to perform better than my 212x at a low cost as well.
You don't have to use that fan. Noctua has them in black colors now with their Chromax lineup. You can easily sell any Noctua fan on ebay or Craigslist. Just buy the cooler and a Chromax fan, then sell the ugly brown fan.
That's a pretty nice looking rig (if that's yours). Yeah, the one thing I don't like about my current chassis (nzxt phantom 410) is that it doesn't have the full glass window. Once again, I'm in Taiwan so I wouldn't be using Craigslist or eBay but I get your point. Still trying to wrap my head around paying so much though for a air cooler (even if it is the best). I can get the msi core frozer l for less than half the price. Based on reviews, it sheds off around 13c compared to my current cooler. Of course my results may vary but that's pretty nice considering how cheap it is. I can get one for around roughly 45 us dollars where your cooler would cost me near 100.
Well, certainly we all have to go with the options that are available to use. Hyper 212x is cheap too, but it's results aren't particularly good. Sometimes you have to get substantial results. I can tell you that the MSI coolers don't get mentioned in any relevant conversations pertaining to the best coolers on any of the review sites, and they would if it had performance worth including in those reviews and conversations.
It's not simply that it's an overseas item either. They review hardware that we never get our hands on on this side of the pond all the time. But I can't say I've ever seen that one mentioned at all. The reviews of it I see are all up against lower quality units to so it's hard to compare with anything substantial.
It's performance seems to match the CoolerMaster MasterLiquid Pro 240 which isn't bad for 45$. Unless there is another cooler at this price range and size that performs better, I'll probably be going with this.
You can also check the review here at guru3d http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_core_frozr_l_cpu_cooler_review,8.html
gets 75c on a i7 4790k at 4.6ghz using 1.3v
Just seems the most sensible to me as far as price/performance goes. If you know of any other coolers that are preferably not too bulky and aren't priced as high, I'd definite appreciate it.
Based on that review, it looks like performance is pretty good. Certainly miles better than your 212x. However, I'm pretty skeptical of their results there as many others don't show similar performance. In fact, most show substantially worse. I have to wonder if Guru3d might have not been entirely unbiased for financial reasons or simply had skewed results for some reason. These others show substantially worse performance, especially when overclocked. I can link you to those reviews if you want. You can find them yourself though.
One of the reviews indicated that the CPU was even unable to complete the full stress test compared to many other coolers that were, including a few pretty mediocre models. On the reverse, I'm not sure that THAT is true either. Based on ALL the reviews, I would also NOT say it was THAT bad as well as saying it wasn't THAT good. Not great, but not terrible either.
I'd still say it's much better than what you have now, I just think you can probably do better for the same price or slightly higher, but again, I don't know too much about pricing and availability in Taiwan as I do in a lot of other countries so you may be spot on as far as that goes.
I just think that if you were willing to spend the kind of money necessary for a Coffee lake i5 or i7, plus a motherboard, spending closer to 100 bucks is significantly less than that and considering that your CPU cooler is likely to last you possibly a lifetime minus maybe having to replace a fan at some point down the road, it's an investment that ought to be weighted somewhat high on the list of priorities since it may be needed to be significantly higher performing later if you DO upgrade to something with an increased core count. Especially if you also plan to overclock said increased core CPU.
No matter what CPU you choose, it's going to get replaced at some point down the road, but a CPU cooler is like a power supply, if you buy a very good one, you might not have to do it again for 12 years or longer. Maybe MUCH longer, if ever. I say buy a very good one once, and not have to worry about having to upgrade it again later because you went with a mediocre one that your future CPU choice is too much for. Again, that's just how I look at it though. Not everybody looks at things through the same looking glass and that's ok because we all have different priorities.
You're right I was planning to swap out my motherboard and cpu earlier. Sorry I forgot to mention I was thinking everything over and decided it would be best to wait until volta and save my money for that. I also plan to buy liquid cooling or a high end air cooler after I upgrade my cpu. I'll wait until my cpu starts holding me back or something significantly better is available. I managed to get through with the hyper 212x so the Msi cooler will probably be better. It seems like the most attractive option right now because they sell it right down the street and it's cheap enough where I can save more for the 2080ti or 1180ti(whatever it's called) when it comes out. Since I'm not currently really experiencing any bottlenecks on my cpu for what I am doing, I think I might have been disappointing by a cpu upgrade and also might end up regretting it later after 9th gen is released. Prices here are similar to the states so if you know any similar priced air coolers I'd be better off getting, please let me know. Thank you for all your time and advice up until now.
By the way I was unable to find the reviews you mentioned where the cooler did poorly in. If you don't mind could you please post those links? Also again any suggestions for a cooler at that price range would be appreciated.