- Mar 2, 2019
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Question i7-4790S with stock cooler?
- Thread starter YKS_Gaming
- Start date
SHMILY
Great
Suffix s is a low-power version, TDP only 65w, the main frequency is lower than normal, so the performance will be reduced, more suitable for some itx small chassis users.
And inside is silicon. If your Air duct is okay enough, stock is enough I think. Because stock cooler is not so weak actually
And inside is silicon. If your Air duct is okay enough, stock is enough I think. Because stock cooler is not so weak actually
- Dec 26, 2012
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Yes. You can use the stock cooler with it. But just as any other stock cooler on any cpu prior to the AMD Wraith, it IS a stock cooler, so would be the bare minimum. It's designed to keep average usage under throttle temps, (somewhere around 90°C ish) so if you use it for heavy gaming or production stuff like rendering or photo editing etc, expect it to get pretty warm. Just the nature of stock coolers.
- Mar 2, 2019
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idk if it is the stock cooler actually
although i did do some testing and it can keep the i5-4460T (my current processor) at 40 degree Celsius while pinned at 100% usage on all cores and having a gtx750Ti blowing hot air at it
although i did do some testing and it can keep the i5-4460T (my current processor) at 40 degree Celsius while pinned at 100% usage on all cores and having a gtx750Ti blowing hot air at it
SHMILY
Great
Because in our industry, I've heard that many businesses will replace the stock cooler and then send to you customer.
4460T is 35W but 4790s is 65W with 8thread. The tempatured will be higher.But it's not going to be too high. You can have a try. If you get a high tempertaure, and then It's not too late to buy new heat sinks.
- Dec 26, 2012
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Many times it's a spec given by the customer. If you've ever been to a hospital, you'll generally see a small pc right there on the desk. And it's silent. No loud cpu cooler blasting away. Those are over-spec'd with larger coolers and bigger fans that'll spin slower and far quieter.
So unless you get just a plain, stock cpu in a box with included heatsink, buying a 'tray' cpu means its necessary to supply a cooler and most don't opt for the minimum.
You can't over-cool a cpu (sure can under-cool one), having oversized cooler just means you'll have a much harder time stressing the cooler enough to make its fans work hard and fast. (and fast = loud)
So unless you get just a plain, stock cpu in a box with included heatsink, buying a 'tray' cpu means its necessary to supply a cooler and most don't opt for the minimum.
You can't over-cool a cpu (sure can under-cool one), having oversized cooler just means you'll have a much harder time stressing the cooler enough to make its fans work hard and fast. (and fast = loud)
I've run a number of Intel processors on stock coolers, from old core-2 duos to 4790K. In all cases, the stock (meaning retail from Intel) coolers were adequate for normal desktop uses, light gaming, and even some video rendering and Photoshop work. Modern intel processors all have fairly conservative thermal throttling and power monitoring. In most cases, a better cooler means it can go a bit faster under full load, but only the K versions benefit a lot from the better cooling, as you can then overclock to higher (sometimes much higher) performance. But the S version is a lower power and tops out at 4 GHz turbo, so there is not likely to be much benefit from a better cooler. It is a locked clock multiplier, so any overclocking will have to take everything along for the ride.
- Dec 26, 2012
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I ran my old P4 on the stock cooler, for all of 10 minutes. Intel definitely had a decent stock cooler, but it's really only rated for roughly the cpu TDP. Unfortunately with hyperthreading that's usually 1.5x to 2x lower than what it needed to be. In today's usage, even light gaming is taxing all cores (especially duo/quads) to high levels. If that S comes with a standard i7 Intel stock cooler, it should be ok, if it comes with the Intel 'lite' version used primarily on the lower TDP i5's and i3's, it won't. You'll be asking a 100w cooler to try and handle anywhere upto 130ish watts. P95 will put that cpu into throttle/shutdowns in seconds.
Real data, in real time:
I7-3770 4 cores, 8 threads 3.40 GHz base clock
Load is Mersenne prime search, some double check and some primality tests - in other words, similar to the blended torture test, with waiting towards large FFT.
Mother boards are mid-level MSI versions from that era. (2011-2012?)
System 1 - stock retail Intel cooler buried in a a rack-mount chassis with crappy airflow: runs at 3.7 GHz at a temperature of 85C and power draw of around 75-76 watts. That's clearly a high temperature, but it is still running a 300 MHz turbo boost.
System 2 - larger mid-tower case from CoolerMaster - HAF 922 or similar. Eleven 4 TB NAS drives in a RAID six, decent air flow and an Intel solution 120mm AIO mounted on the top - runs at 4.1 GHz at a temperature of 61C while drawing 65 watts. Much nicer temperature, and 700 MHz of turbo boost.
So the stock cooler can be improved upon for better performance/lower temperature, although there may be a difference in the two instances of the same processor that would account for some of the difference, given that the power draws are so much different on a watt/GHz basis. I am not going to tear the systems apart to swap the CPUs at this point, although I should see if I can improve the airflow in the rack mount case.
Note that the 4790S is not the first choice for a gaming system. It is very nearly the same as the previous i7-3770, with the same process and only the addition of AVX2 and a supposed top turbo of 4.0 GHz. It's rated TDP is 65 watts v. 77 watts for the earlier 3770.
I have a couple of 4790Ks that I could get some benchmarks from with stock v. water coolers. I can probably post those results later tonight.
I7-3770 4 cores, 8 threads 3.40 GHz base clock
Load is Mersenne prime search, some double check and some primality tests - in other words, similar to the blended torture test, with waiting towards large FFT.
Mother boards are mid-level MSI versions from that era. (2011-2012?)
System 1 - stock retail Intel cooler buried in a a rack-mount chassis with crappy airflow: runs at 3.7 GHz at a temperature of 85C and power draw of around 75-76 watts. That's clearly a high temperature, but it is still running a 300 MHz turbo boost.
System 2 - larger mid-tower case from CoolerMaster - HAF 922 or similar. Eleven 4 TB NAS drives in a RAID six, decent air flow and an Intel solution 120mm AIO mounted on the top - runs at 4.1 GHz at a temperature of 61C while drawing 65 watts. Much nicer temperature, and 700 MHz of turbo boost.
So the stock cooler can be improved upon for better performance/lower temperature, although there may be a difference in the two instances of the same processor that would account for some of the difference, given that the power draws are so much different on a watt/GHz basis. I am not going to tear the systems apart to swap the CPUs at this point, although I should see if I can improve the airflow in the rack mount case.
Note that the 4790S is not the first choice for a gaming system. It is very nearly the same as the previous i7-3770, with the same process and only the addition of AVX2 and a supposed top turbo of 4.0 GHz. It's rated TDP is 65 watts v. 77 watts for the earlier 3770.
I have a couple of 4790Ks that I could get some benchmarks from with stock v. water coolers. I can probably post those results later tonight.
Okay, numbers are in: i7-4790K - one cooled with the stock retail fan/heatsink from Intel, and the other cooled with a 120 AIO mounted on the back.
The stock cooler gives 4.0 GHz, with very occasional throttles down to around 3.9 GHz as the temperature bumps up against the 90C point. It's likely that the MCE is not enabled on this board, but given the temperatures, there would be no point in enabling it, and the system is also running a RAID 6 with 9 drives, and I don't want to take it off line to get into the BIOS to change it. The power draw is around 85 watts, and the package is rated at 88 TDP. The host OS is Linux Ubuntu 18.04.
The 120 AIO runs along at 80-81C at around 105 watts for the package, and when all 4 cores are compute bound in the Mersenne search, the cores run at 4.4 GHz. When something unloads temporarily a core can go to 4.6 GHz. The host OS is Windoze 10, which doesn't multi-thread very well, as it keeps moving the threads around, incurring unnecessary overheads in the task switching.
Both systems are using the built-in graphics for desktop displays.
As you can see, for the unlocked, higher performance version of the 4790, the better cooler gets better performance. The S version has a top turbo of 4.0 GHz, which puts it at the same point as the stock K version, unboosted. If you have the same cooler, then you won't gain much performance from a better cooler on the S, although you could get somewhat better longevity with a lower temperature. If Intel packaged the S with a smaller cooler, then you could benefit performance-wise from a better cooler.
PS - the P95 small FFT torture test buries every processor (unless you have exotic below ambient cooling), either leading to thermal throttling or errors depending on the OC settings. Use it with care.
The stock cooler gives 4.0 GHz, with very occasional throttles down to around 3.9 GHz as the temperature bumps up against the 90C point. It's likely that the MCE is not enabled on this board, but given the temperatures, there would be no point in enabling it, and the system is also running a RAID 6 with 9 drives, and I don't want to take it off line to get into the BIOS to change it. The power draw is around 85 watts, and the package is rated at 88 TDP. The host OS is Linux Ubuntu 18.04.
The 120 AIO runs along at 80-81C at around 105 watts for the package, and when all 4 cores are compute bound in the Mersenne search, the cores run at 4.4 GHz. When something unloads temporarily a core can go to 4.6 GHz. The host OS is Windoze 10, which doesn't multi-thread very well, as it keeps moving the threads around, incurring unnecessary overheads in the task switching.
Both systems are using the built-in graphics for desktop displays.
As you can see, for the unlocked, higher performance version of the 4790, the better cooler gets better performance. The S version has a top turbo of 4.0 GHz, which puts it at the same point as the stock K version, unboosted. If you have the same cooler, then you won't gain much performance from a better cooler on the S, although you could get somewhat better longevity with a lower temperature. If Intel packaged the S with a smaller cooler, then you could benefit performance-wise from a better cooler.
PS - the P95 small FFT torture test buries every processor (unless you have exotic below ambient cooling), either leading to thermal throttling or errors depending on the OC settings. Use it with care.
- Dec 26, 2012
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- 142,790
TDP is thermal design Power. It's an average of power used by the cpu under several specific mediocre impact programs, such as Adobe, Photoshop etc. With most cpus, the wattage used is within 5°C ± of the temp at test, so TDP is used as a thermal load as well as power load. For an i7, that pretty much means running 4 threads or less to get TDP. Rule of thumb wisdom for running cpus under duress and keeping them out of throttle temps is a cooler that's 1.5x to 2x TDP. For i5's or low power i7's, it's closer to 1.5x (quad cores) and for standard i7's it's closer to 2x. For OC values, start at 1 step up, depending on the size of the OC, so an i5/i7LP should be @ 2x+ for OC.
The 4790s is 65w. The best coolers in that range is the 130w cryorig m9i or deepcool Gammax 300 ($17!). It'll run Prime95 small fft (clean 100% load unlike blend or large fft which has variable loads) somewhere @ 70°C, which puts even heavy use loads like intense gaming closer to @ 55°C, assuming decent airflow and 23°C ambient.
The Intel cooler (there are more than 5 varieties) that'll likely come with that cpu will be the same one that came with the 74w i5-3570k. Roughly a 95w cooler. Problem is is that when cpu thermal watts gets close to cpu cooler watts, you end up with closer to a 1:1 ratio of wattage to core temp. It's extremely easy to put an i7 when hyperthreading is enabled, to 1.5x TDP, or into the 90°C range, on an intel stock cooler.
The stock cooler on the 77w i7-3770 is larger than the one that comes on the i5, it's rated at @ 105w.
Almost all 120mm AIO's are between @140-150w capacity.
Running any cpu for extended periods at or just below throttle temps is a recipe for disaster. That's @ 20°C ± too high for any longetivity as electromigration and high vcore will burn out transistors rather quickly, not last 20 years like a cpu can. Cascade failures are not that uncommon, and if the cpu throttles enough, it'll start shutting down instead
The 4790s is 65w. The best coolers in that range is the 130w cryorig m9i or deepcool Gammax 300 ($17!). It'll run Prime95 small fft (clean 100% load unlike blend or large fft which has variable loads) somewhere @ 70°C, which puts even heavy use loads like intense gaming closer to @ 55°C, assuming decent airflow and 23°C ambient.
The Intel cooler (there are more than 5 varieties) that'll likely come with that cpu will be the same one that came with the 74w i5-3570k. Roughly a 95w cooler. Problem is is that when cpu thermal watts gets close to cpu cooler watts, you end up with closer to a 1:1 ratio of wattage to core temp. It's extremely easy to put an i7 when hyperthreading is enabled, to 1.5x TDP, or into the 90°C range, on an intel stock cooler.
The stock cooler on the 77w i7-3770 is larger than the one that comes on the i5, it's rated at @ 105w.
Almost all 120mm AIO's are between @140-150w capacity.
Running any cpu for extended periods at or just below throttle temps is a recipe for disaster. That's @ 20°C ± too high for any longetivity as electromigration and high vcore will burn out transistors rather quickly, not last 20 years like a cpu can. Cascade failures are not that uncommon, and if the cpu throttles enough, it'll start shutting down instead
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- Dec 26, 2012
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Nope. Don't even know if such exists and if it does, it's probably buried in Intel vaults. I do know that cpus will last 20+ years, my PII 350 still runs fine, even with a 400MHz OC, but I also know that OC with high voltages, approaching (if not at or over) Intel safe specs will cut that time severely, more so if run at temps approaching throttle or more. It's pretty similar to capacitor degradation. I also know my i7-3770K sat at 4.9GHz @ 1.32v for 4 years (ish and runs 24/7) and suddenly started in with nt kernel errors, irq not less than equal errors etc, which are all cpu voltage errors. Backed the OC down to 4.6GHz @ 1.232v and haven't had an issue since. Even though it was sitting under an nzxt x61 and now a cryorig R1 Ultimate, and hasn't seen 100% loads since the OC fix. (never goes beyond 55-56°C). I expect I'll get another year, maybe 2 before there's enough damage done that ill either start seeing repeated ctd or bs or performance starts dropping off rapidly. Cpus are very much like hdds in that respect, once you get a bad sector, it's just a matter of time before it cascades and develops enough corrupted data that it basically becomes unusable.
Yeah, the cumulative mechanisms get you over time, and they just keep accumulating. I'm not sure the life of a micron process PIII is equivalent to the 22nm as far as longevity is concerned. Lower voltages and power for sure, but much thinner oxides and smaller junctions (and up to a 1000 times more transistors to mess up). What self respecting gamer would keep a rig over 5 years? Intel knows this and the standards for the consumer processors are probably lower than for the server stuff.
My oldest system is a core-two duo in an intel motherboard that never gets turned off. Runs Windoze 7. I've replaced the hard drives, but nothing else. Must be close to 15 years old now. NO overclock, and an old EVO212 back from when that was a top of the line air cooler.
I guess if I want to run the prime search I should improve the coolers on those two stock machines or cut down on the cores running it. I also need to add some air conditioning! My server room is suddenly warm, and summer is just beginning.
Thanks for your thoughts. I need to go see if I can find some advice about my Threadripper, as it refuses to transfer heat to the water block at an adequate rate.
My oldest system is a core-two duo in an intel motherboard that never gets turned off. Runs Windoze 7. I've replaced the hard drives, but nothing else. Must be close to 15 years old now. NO overclock, and an old EVO212 back from when that was a top of the line air cooler.
I guess if I want to run the prime search I should improve the coolers on those two stock machines or cut down on the cores running it. I also need to add some air conditioning! My server room is suddenly warm, and summer is just beginning.
Thanks for your thoughts. I need to go see if I can find some advice about my Threadripper, as it refuses to transfer heat to the water block at an adequate rate.
- Dec 26, 2012
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You can't over-cool a cpu, ever. Bigger coolers just mean slower running fans, which equals quieter under loads. If you are serious about running Mersenne, I'd be looking at Noctua NH-D14/15S or a good 280mm/360mm rad, just for the ability to think when in the same room. It'll also keep those cpus in the 50-70°C range, a far cry from having them throttle or almost throttle with those 2 small coolers.
- Mar 2, 2019
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Another question:
my i7 4790S is not Turboing
even in games it was locked into 3.2 GHz and the temperature never really get that high (50 degrees of Communism in games and peaks at 60 in cinebench R20
did some testing and the problem is not the CPU
my i5 4460T is not turboing either, staying at the ludicrously slow 1.9Ghz even when using one core
so the problem should be the motherboard. I am using a pegatron memphis 2s from a hp slimline pc and both the i5 T the i7 S and the normal i7-4790 is on the support list. I am on the latest Bios. what should i do?
my i7 4790S is not Turboing
even in games it was locked into 3.2 GHz and the temperature never really get that high (50 degrees of Communism in games and peaks at 60 in cinebench R20
did some testing and the problem is not the CPU
my i5 4460T is not turboing either, staying at the ludicrously slow 1.9Ghz even when using one core
so the problem should be the motherboard. I am using a pegatron memphis 2s from a hp slimline pc and both the i5 T the i7 S and the normal i7-4790 is on the support list. I am on the latest Bios. what should i do?
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