IBM's PC business up for sale

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?

Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
I thought they got out of them years ago.

Yousuf Khan

The New York Times > Technology > I.B.M. Said to Put Its PC Business
on the Market
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/technology/03ibm.html?oref=login&oref=login

Here's the full story, if you don't want to register for NYTimes:

I.B.M. Said to Put Its PC Business on the Market
By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN and STEVE LOHR

Published: December 3, 2004

International Business Machines, whose first I.B.M. PC in 1981 moved
personal computing out of the hobby shop and into the corporate and
consumer mainstream, has put the business up for sale, people close to
the negotiations said yesterday.

While I.B.M. long ago ceded the lead in the personal computer market
to Dell and Hewlett-Packard so it could focus instead on the more
lucrative corporate server and computer services business, a sale
would nonetheless bring the end of an era in an industry that it
helped invent. The sale, likely to be in the $1 billion to $2 billion
range, is expected to include the entire range of desktop, laptop and
notebook computers made by I.B.M.

Advertisement

The retreat from the business may be the ultimate acknowledgement that
the personal computer has become a staple of everyday life, a
commodity product, yielding very slim profits. The companies that make
the most money from PC's these days are Microsoft and Intel - whose
software and chips are the standard for most of the personal computers
sold, regardless of the maker.

According to the people close to the negotiations, I.B.M. is in
serious discussions with Lenovo, China's largest maker of personal
computers, and at least one other potential buyer for the unit. Lenovo
was formerly known as Legend.

A spokesman for I.B.M., Edward Barbini, said last night, "I.B.M. has a
policy of not confirming or denying rumors."

If I.B.M.'s personal computer business ends up being sold to Lenovo,
it would continue the migration of high-technology manufacturing to
China and Taiwan.

In the 23 years since I.B.M. lent its prowess in mainframe computers
to the production of desktop machines, it has been widely criticized
for having destined the machines to commodity status by giving
Microsoft and Intel the rights to those essential standards. And
although Apple Computer holds less than 4 percent of the personal
computing market worldwide, it has been able to command relatively
high prices and richer profits because it has controlled the software
and hardware that goes into its machines.

A sale of the personal computer business would be a step away from
I.B.M.'s traditional emphasis on the size of its revenue as a measure
of its corporate power. The PC business represents about 12 percent of
I.B.M.'s annual revenue of $92 billion.

For nearly a decade, though, some industry analysts have urged I.B.M.
to get out of that business as it made only a modest profit or lost
money. For this year, analysts have expected a pretax profit of less
than $100 million.

I.B.M. executives long resisted that course, arguing that personal
computers were technology products its corporate customers wanted. It
held on to the business on the theory that it helped hold on to
customers.

But in the most recent quarter, I.B.M. ranked a distant third in
worldwide PC sales, with 5.6 percent of the market, according to
Gartner, the market research firm. Dell was the leader with 16.8
percent of the world market, and Hewlett-Packard, which has absorbed
Compaq Computer, had 15 percent.

A sale now, if it happens, would be consistent with the strategy
pursued by Samuel J. Palmisano, who became I.B.M.'s chief executive
early in 2002. He has sold hardware businesses where profits were
slender and growth prospects were limited, like its hard disk drive
business, which was sold to Hitachi.

Instead, Mr. Palmisano has bet on expanding the company's services
business, automating a full array of operations - from product design
to sales-order processing - for corporate customers. I.B.M. now casts
itself as a company that does not simply sell technology but serves as
a consulting partner to help its customers use technology to increase
the efficiency and competitiveness of their businesses. As part of
that strategy, he bought PricewaterhouseCoopers Consulting for $3.5
billion, in a deal that closed in October 2002.

"Palmisano's getting out of businesses that aren't growth
opportunities and concentrating on what I.B.M. does best," said Mark
Stahlman, an analyst at Carris & Company. "PC's are not where the
growth is."

To trim costs, I.B.M. has steadily retreated from the manufacture of
its PC's. In January 2002, it sold its desktop PC manufacturing
operations in the Untied States and Europe to Sanmina-SCI, based in
San Jose, Calif. I.B.M. now confines its role in PC's to design and
product development out of its offices in Raleigh, N.C., with all the
I.B.M.-brand desktop or notebook computers made by contract
manufacturers around the world.

Leslie Fiering, a research vice president at Gartner, has predicted
consolidation in the PC industry over the next few years.

"Exiting the market may be the only logical choice for global vendors
bleeding profits and struggling for share," she wrote in a recent
research report. And she noted that Hewlett-Packard, a broad-based
technology company where PC's are only part of a much larger business,
might face pressures similar to I.B.M.'s.

"The PC divisions of H. P. and I.B.M." Ms. Fiering wrote, "are
vulnerable to being spun off if their drag on margins and
profitability are deemed too great by their parent companies."

In the meantime, she said, Asian vendors like Lenovo "appear well
positioned to leverage their strong local-market standing and low-cost
operating models into a global presence."

Asia has increasingly become a major hub for technology manufacturing.
More and more chip making is done in the contract factories, like
Taiwan Semiconductor, and at new foundries in China.

Still, in the semiconductor industry, Intel and I.B.M. still have big
factories in the United States, and Advanced Micro Devices, Intel's
most prominent rival in chip making, has a leading-edge plant in
Germany.

Personal computer making has followed the same path to Asia,
especially in the case of notebook machines made in China and Taiwan.
Lenovo has had long ties with I.B.M. It got its start in 1984 as a
distributor of personal computers from I.B.M. and AST, the Taiwan PC
maker.

 

[keith]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 12:37:36 -0800, ykhan wrote:

> So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
> comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?

Nah, let's just go piss off the geeks over on .intel. ;-)

> Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
> I thought they got out of them years ago.

Yousuf, you really haven't been paying attention. You've never heard of
a ThinkPad? Sure, they likely *should* have gotten out a decade ago
since there hasn't been any money in that market since the year of the
flood. ...but they are still in there.

<snip>

--
Keith

 

[cjt]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

ykhan wrote:
> So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
> comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?
>
> Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
> I thought they got out of them years ago.
>
> Yousuf Khan
>
> The New York Times > Technology > I.B.M. Said to Put Its PC Business
> on the Market
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/technology/03ibm.html?oref=login&oref=login
>
> Here's the full story, if you don't want to register for NYTimes:
>
>

> I.B.M. Said to Put Its PC Business on the Market
> By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN and STEVE LOHR
>
> Published: December 3, 2004
>
> International Business Machines, whose first I.B.M. PC in 1981 moved
> personal computing out of the hobby shop and into the corporate and
> consumer mainstream, has put the business up for sale, people close to
> the negotiations said yesterday.
>
> While I.B.M. long ago ceded the lead in the personal computer market
> to Dell and Hewlett-Packard so it could focus instead on the more
> lucrative corporate server and computer services business, a sale
> would nonetheless bring the end of an era in an industry that it
> helped invent. The sale, likely to be in the $1 billion to $2 billion
> range, is expected to include the entire range of desktop, laptop and
> notebook computers made by I.B.M.
>
> Advertisement
>
> The retreat from the business may be the ultimate acknowledgement that
> the personal computer has become a staple of everyday life, a
> commodity product, yielding very slim profits. The companies that make
> the most money from PC's these days are Microsoft and Intel - whose
> software and chips are the standard for most of the personal computers
> sold, regardless of the maker.
>
> According to the people close to the negotiations, I.B.M. is in
> serious discussions with Lenovo, China's largest maker of personal
> computers, and at least one other potential buyer for the unit. Lenovo
> was formerly known as Legend.
>
> A spokesman for I.B.M., Edward Barbini, said last night, "I.B.M. has a
> policy of not confirming or denying rumors."
>
> If I.B.M.'s personal computer business ends up being sold to Lenovo,
> it would continue the migration of high-technology manufacturing to
> China and Taiwan.
>
> In the 23 years since I.B.M. lent its prowess in mainframe computers
> to the production of desktop machines, it has been widely criticized
> for having destined the machines to commodity status by giving
> Microsoft and Intel the rights to those essential standards. And
> although Apple Computer holds less than 4 percent of the personal
> computing market worldwide, it has been able to command relatively
> high prices and richer profits because it has controlled the software
> and hardware that goes into its machines.
>
> A sale of the personal computer business would be a step away from
> I.B.M.'s traditional emphasis on the size of its revenue as a measure
> of its corporate power. The PC business represents about 12 percent of
> I.B.M.'s annual revenue of $92 billion.
>
> For nearly a decade, though, some industry analysts have urged I.B.M.
> to get out of that business as it made only a modest profit or lost
> money. For this year, analysts have expected a pretax profit of less
> than $100 million.
>
> I.B.M. executives long resisted that course, arguing that personal
> computers were technology products its corporate customers wanted. It
> held on to the business on the theory that it helped hold on to
> customers.
>
> But in the most recent quarter, I.B.M. ranked a distant third in
> worldwide PC sales, with 5.6 percent of the market, according to
> Gartner, the market research firm. Dell was the leader with 16.8
> percent of the world market, and Hewlett-Packard, which has absorbed
> Compaq Computer, had 15 percent.
>
> A sale now, if it happens, would be consistent with the strategy
> pursued by Samuel J. Palmisano, who became I.B.M.'s chief executive
> early in 2002. He has sold hardware businesses where profits were
> slender and growth prospects were limited, like its hard disk drive
> business, which was sold to Hitachi.
>
> Instead, Mr. Palmisano has bet on expanding the company's services
> business, automating a full array of operations - from product design
> to sales-order processing - for corporate customers. I.B.M. now casts
> itself as a company that does not simply sell technology but serves as
> a consulting partner to help its customers use technology to increase
> the efficiency and competitiveness of their businesses. As part of
> that strategy, he bought PricewaterhouseCoopers Consulting for $3.5
> billion, in a deal that closed in October 2002.
>
> "Palmisano's getting out of businesses that aren't growth
> opportunities and concentrating on what I.B.M. does best," said Mark
> Stahlman, an analyst at Carris & Company. "PC's are not where the
> growth is."
>
> To trim costs, I.B.M. has steadily retreated from the manufacture of
> its PC's. In January 2002, it sold its desktop PC manufacturing
> operations in the Untied States and Europe to Sanmina-SCI, based in
> San Jose, Calif. I.B.M. now confines its role in PC's to design and
> product development out of its offices in Raleigh, N.C., with all the
> I.B.M.-brand desktop or notebook computers made by contract
> manufacturers around the world.
>
> Leslie Fiering, a research vice president at Gartner, has predicted
> consolidation in the PC industry over the next few years.
>
> "Exiting the market may be the only logical choice for global vendors
> bleeding profits and struggling for share," she wrote in a recent
> research report. And she noted that Hewlett-Packard, a broad-based
> technology company where PC's are only part of a much larger business,
> might face pressures similar to I.B.M.'s.
>
> "The PC divisions of H. P. and I.B.M." Ms. Fiering wrote, "are
> vulnerable to being spun off if their drag on margins and
> profitability are deemed too great by their parent companies."
>
> In the meantime, she said, Asian vendors like Lenovo "appear well
> positioned to leverage their strong local-market standing and low-cost
> operating models into a global presence."
>
> Asia has increasingly become a major hub for technology manufacturing.
> More and more chip making is done in the contract factories, like
> Taiwan Semiconductor, and at new foundries in China.
>
> Still, in the semiconductor industry, Intel and I.B.M. still have big
> factories in the United States, and Advanced Micro Devices, Intel's
> most prominent rival in chip making, has a leading-edge plant in
> Germany.
>
> Personal computer making has followed the same path to Asia,
> especially in the case of notebook machines made in China and Taiwan.
> Lenovo has had long ties with I.B.M. It got its start in 1984 as a
> distributor of personal computers from I.B.M. and AST, the Taiwan PC
> maker.
>
>
>

I don't think they want to be in businesses they can't dominate.

That means semiconductors are next, and then servers (IMHO).

Mainframes and services will be the last to go. Then they'll just
be a finance company. (again IMHO)

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

CJT> Mainframes and services will be the last to go. Then they'll
CJT> just be a finance company. (again IMHO)

American companies are out of the commodity market for anything (pc's
are just one of the many), that excludes advertising ;-)).

Heck the article that I read stated that all thinkpads and IBM desktop
computers are currently made in China anyway. So I guess they have
been out of the market for some time. There name brand is all that ibm
is selling.

Later

 

[keith]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:08:31 +0000, CJT wrote:

> ykhan wrote:
>> So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
>> comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?
>>
>> Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
>> I thought they got out of them years ago.

<snip quotes>

> I don't think they want to be in businesses they can't dominate.

C/dominate/make money at/all

> That means semiconductors are next, and then servers (IMHO).

You're on drugs. You don' think there is money in servers?
Semicondutors are necessary for servers. TNone of this is changing
anytime soon.

> Mainframes and services will be the last to go. Then they'll just
> be a finance company. (again IMHO)

I want what you're smoking.

--
Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:
> Yousuf, you really haven't been paying attention. You've never heard of
> a ThinkPad? Sure, they likely *should* have gotten out a decade ago
> since there hasn't been any money in that market since the year of the
> flood. ...but they are still in there.

Oh, so you're saying that the Thinkpad T21 that I have is an IBM?

Yousuf Khan

 

[cjt]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:08:31 +0000, CJT wrote:
>
>
>>ykhan wrote:
>>
>>>So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
>>>comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?
>>>
>>>Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
>>>I thought they got out of them years ago.
>
>
> <snip quotes>
>
>>I don't think they want to be in businesses they can't dominate.
>
>
> C/dominate/make money at/all

I'll stick with "dominate."

>
>
>>That means semiconductors are next, and then servers (IMHO).
>
>
> You're on drugs. You don' think there is money in servers?
> Semicondutors are necessary for servers. TNone of this is changing
> anytime soon.
>

Give it a few years. You probably would have said the same thing
about disk drives.
>
>>Mainframes and services will be the last to go. Then they'll just
>>be a finance company. (again IMHO)
>
>
> I want what you're smoking.
>
We'll see ...


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

 

[keith]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 04:45:07 +0000, CJT wrote:

> keith wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:08:31 +0000, CJT wrote:
>>
>>
>>>ykhan wrote:
>>>
>>>>So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
>>>>comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?
>>>>
>>>>Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
>>>>I thought they got out of them years ago.
>>
>>
>> <snip quotes>
>>
>>>I don't think they want to be in businesses they can't dominate.
>>
>>
>> C/dominate/make money at/all
>
> I'll stick with "dominate."
>
>>
>>
>>>That means semiconductors are next, and then servers (IMHO).
>>
>>
>> You're on drugs. You don' think there is money in servers?
>> Semicondutors are necessary for servers. TNone of this is changing
>> anytime soon.
>>
>
> Give it a few years. You probably would have said the same thing
> about disk drives.

Nope. The end for disk drives was written on the wall long before they
sold the operation. Density was increasing so fast and the price in
free-fall so there wasn't any money to be made there. That didn't
happen overnight. The same thing happened to the PC business. Indeed many
here show surprise that IBM was still in this business.
>>
>>>Mainframes and services will be the last to go. Then they'll just be a
>>>finance company. (again IMHO)
>>
>>
>> I want what you're smoking.
>>
> We'll see ...

Are you saying that IBM is losing money on servers? About to
lose money? Servers are going to disappear? a meteor is goign to hit
Armonk?

Sorry, I don't see any parallels here.

--
Keith

 

[keith]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:31:08 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:

> keith wrote:
> > Yousuf, you really haven't been paying attention. You've never heard of
>> a ThinkPad? Sure, they likely *should* have gotten out a decade ago
>> since there hasn't been any money in that market since the year of the
>> flood. ...but they are still in there.
>
> Oh, so you're saying that the Thinkpad T21 that I have is an IBM?

Business <> manufacturing. Perhaps your ThinkPad wasn't made by IBM,
but IIRC the 'T' series was designed by IBM (along with the 'A', and 'X').
FWIG the 'R' and 'I' series were OEM all the way.

--
Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

ykhan wrote:
> So I guess it's goodbye comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips, and hello
> comp.sys.lenovo.pc.hardware.chips?
>
> Well, I'm actually kind of surprised that IBM still has a PC business,
> I thought they got out of them years ago.
>
> Yousuf Khan
>
> The New York Times > Technology > I.B.M. Said to Put Its PC Business
> on the Market
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/technology/03ibm.html?oref=login&oref=login

Here's an excerpt from an earlier NYTimes article about IBM's PC, one
from 1981 when it was introduced with the Charlie Chaplin character
advertisement:

> IBM is expected to pose the stiffest challenge yet to Apple and to Tandy, which together have a 39 percent share of the personal computer market, with sales of $2.4 billion in 1980. "It's one of the most important announcements we've seen in the industry," said Christopher Morgan, editor in chief of Byte, a personal computer magazine.
>
> "People will now know that personal computers are not a fad or a flash in the pan," said Michael McConnell, executive vice president of Computerland, a chain of retail stores that will market the new IBM products.

And there's also an early review of the first PC:

The First IBM PC
http://www.darron.net/firstibm.html

Yousuf Khan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:53:14 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>> Oh, so you're saying that the Thinkpad T21 that I have is an IBM?
>
>Business <> manufacturing. Perhaps your ThinkPad wasn't made by IBM,
>but IIRC the 'T' series was designed by IBM (along with the 'A', and 'X').
>FWIG the 'R' and 'I' series were OEM all the way.

My T21 is marked "Made in Mexico." I believe that the factory in
Mexico is/was owned by IBM rather than an OEM manufacturer. My old 701
and 600 ThinkPads were also made in Mexico.

I don't know what I'm going to do when I replace my T21 next year. The
desirable options seem to be diminishing. I'm not too keen on getting
a Toshiba or HPaq made out of rounded, shiny silver plastic. That 12"
Apple Powerbook is starting to look more attractive every day. But the
cost of replacing all of my software plus a printer makes that a
rather expensive proposition.
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Gary L. wrote:
> I don't know what I'm going to do when I replace my T21 next year. The
> desirable options seem to be diminishing. I'm not too keen on getting
> a Toshiba or HPaq made out of rounded, shiny silver plastic. That 12"
> Apple Powerbook is starting to look more attractive every day. But the
> cost of replacing all of my software plus a printer makes that a
> rather expensive proposition.

That 12" Powerbook with brushed Titanium is a magnet for scratches. And
those Mac-crack-addicts being the computer-posers that they are, will
not even consider buying a used Powerbook if it's got even one blemish
on it.

Besides, on my T21 Thinkpad, despite the fact that the case is made of
metal, it's much easier to bend it than any of the plastic notebooks
I've had. While I am opening up the display lid, without even too much
effort the display will show pressure marks right at the point where my
fingers are touching the lid. Never had this problem with plastic laptops.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 16:33:23 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>> I don't know what I'm going to do when I replace my T21 next year. The
>> desirable options seem to be diminishing. I'm not too keen on getting
>> a Toshiba or HPaq made out of rounded, shiny silver plastic. That 12"
>> Apple Powerbook is starting to look more attractive every day. But the
>> cost of replacing all of my software plus a printer makes that a
>> rather expensive proposition.
>
>That 12" Powerbook with brushed Titanium is a magnet for scratches. And
>those Mac-crack-addicts being the computer-posers that they are, will
>not even consider buying a used Powerbook if it's got even one blemish
>on it.

I'm sure you're right about the scratches but I'm not really very
concerned about resale value; just usability. The cost of replacing a
fair amount of software makes the Powerbook a poor value. You really
have to be a Mac lover to be willing to pay a big premium to switch.
From my somewhat limited experience with Macs and OS X, there really
isn't enough appeal to me such that I'm willing to pay the premium.

>Besides, on my T21 Thinkpad, despite the fact that the case is made of
>metal, it's much easier to bend it than any of the plastic notebooks
>I've had. While I am opening up the display lid, without even too much
>effort the display will show pressure marks right at the point where my
>fingers are touching the lid. Never had this problem with plastic laptops.

Hmm. My T21 has plastic case with metal particles embedded in the
plastic. It is quite flexible. When I first bought it, I was
disappointed in the case and keyboard as compared to my 600. The 600
has a much sturdier metal case (aluminum, I think) that was coated
with black rubber, and the keyboard on the 600 seemed firmer and
better supported than the T21 keyboard.

The replacement I was mulling over was an X series; perhaps with a
media "slice" that could remain on my desk. I prefer to have just the
TrackPoint and not a touchpad as well, and the lighter weight would be
nice. It has a titanium shell, but with the black rubber coating. If
the IBM PC business is sold off to some Chinese company, I'm not sure
that I would want to buy another ThinkPad.

So my question is: what other options exist? I want similar build
quality as compared to the ThinkPad, decent driver support, good
battery life and freedom from pre-installed garbage like AOL, previews
of Disney games and MS Works.


- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Gary L. wrote:
> So my question is: what other options exist? I want similar build
> quality as compared to the ThinkPad, decent driver support, good
> battery life and freedom from pre-installed garbage like AOL, previews
> of Disney games and MS Works.

I don't know, maybe an Acer Ferrari notebook? They are supposed to
be using the special Ferrari car paint on those things' cases (yeah,
right!), so I would assume it's a metallic casing too. And it will allow
you to out-pose the Mac-crack posers.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Yousuf Khan wrote:
> And there's also an early review of the first PC:
>
> The First IBM PC
> http://www.darron.net/firstibm.html
>

a wonderful piece of engineering

* intel 8088: programmers really like this architecture, easy assembler
* isa bus: excellent forward-thinking design, still used today in some pcs
* the best operating system: dos 1.0, boot-time better than windows xp!
* excellent main-storage layout: later extended with xms,ems,hma, ....
* optional coprocessor 8087: revolutionary stack-architecture

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Horst Gfrerer wrote:
> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>
>>And there's also an early review of the first PC:
>>
>>The First IBM PC
>>http://www.darron.net/firstibm.html
>>
>
>
> a wonderful piece of engineering
>
> * intel 8088: programmers really like this architecture, easy assembler
> * isa bus: excellent forward-thinking design, still used today in some pcs
> * the best operating system: dos 1.0, boot-time better than windows xp!
> * excellent main-storage layout: later extended with xms,ems,hma, ....
> * optional coprocessor 8087: revolutionary stack-architecture

The chart shows that the IBM's competition at the time were Tandy,
Apple, Commodore, Atari, HP, Northstar, TI, Intertec Data, Tektronix,
and Exidy Systems. Most of those I could figure out, but what was HP or
Tektronix selling at the time? And some of them like Intertec and Exidy,
I never even heard about.

Yousuf Khan

 

[keith]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:30:30 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:

> Horst Gfrerer wrote:
>> Yousuf Khan wrote:
>>
>>>And there's also an early review of the first PC:
>>>
>>>The First IBM PC
>>>http://www.darron.net/firstibm.html
>>>
>>
>>
>> a wonderful piece of engineering
>>
>> * intel 8088: programmers really like this architecture, easy assembler
>> * isa bus: excellent forward-thinking design, still used today in some pcs
>> * the best operating system: dos 1.0, boot-time better than windows xp!
>> * excellent main-storage layout: later extended with xms,ems,hma, ....
>> * optional coprocessor 8087: revolutionary stack-architecture
>
> The chart shows that the IBM's competition at the time were Tandy,
> Apple, Commodore, Atari, HP, Northstar, TI, Intertec Data, Tektronix,
> and Exidy Systems. Most of those I could figure out, but what was HP or
> Tektronix selling at the time?

At the time I had a few Tektronix signal processing systems that were
PDP-11 based. Tektronix and HP were both selling microprocessor
*DEVELOPMENT* systems. At $50K to $1.5M there wasn't much
"personal" in there (though they were hard enough to use that they
tended to own a person). We had a network of Intel boxen that were no
different.

--
Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

> Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com> wrote:

> The chart shows that the IBM's competition at the time ...

1981 or so?
HP's minicomputer lines had been competing with IBM
for some years, of course.

> ... but what was HP or ... selling at the time?

If we're just considering "PC" competition, it depends
on what you call a PC.

HP had been selling desktop BASIC- or HPL-only workstations
based on their proprietary 16-bit "BPC" chip since 1975 or
so (and was just transitioning them to Mc68K). There was also
the HP 85A BASIC programmable calc (CPU not known to me), the
HP 120 and 125 (Z80, CP/M as I recall), and some more obscure
but still programmable stuff like the 2647A and 2649A terminals
(808x, OS unknown).

The HP 150 "TouchScreen" PC (808x, DOS), HP's first real (if not
entirely compatible) "PC" probably wasn't out just yet then.

--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 16:33:23 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>Besides, on my T21 Thinkpad, despite the fact that the case is made of
>metal, it's much easier to bend it than any of the plastic notebooks
>I've had. While I am opening up the display lid, without even too much
>effort the display will show pressure marks right at the point where my
>fingers are touching the lid. Never had this problem with plastic laptops.

I've been a pretty avid user of the Thinkpad eversince I tried the
T20, then getting my own A20 replaced by a T30 as well as my darling's
T40 (he wouldn't swap with me ). Don't think I've seen the same
problem you did, maybe you were just being too rough with it? pPpP

But this is sad news, I hate to think I've to live with a trackpad
only replacement when my T30 gives up the ghost another year or two
down the road

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

The little lost angel wrote:
> But this is sad news, I hate to think I've to live with a trackpad
> only replacement when my T30 gives up the ghost another year or two
> down the road

I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.

I would guess that will the pressure-sticks disappearing that I'm not
alone in my preference. The touchpads are much easier to learn than the
pressure-sticks, and are usually much quicker to move around. Also the
touchpads are much closer to actual mouse-like positioning than
touchpads, whenever the manufacturer is smart enough to place the
buttoms above the pad rather than below.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:52:33 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com> wrote:

>The little lost angel wrote:
>> But this is sad news, I hate to think I've to live with a trackpad
>> only replacement when my T30 gives up the ghost another year or two
>> down the road
>
>I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
>I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
>IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
>Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.
>
>I would guess that will the pressure-sticks disappearing that I'm not
>alone in my preference. The touchpads are much easier to learn than the
>pressure-sticks, and are usually much quicker to move around. Also the
>touchpads are much closer to actual mouse-like positioning than
>touchpads, whenever the manufacturer is smart enough to place the
>buttoms above the pad rather than below.

Since we're having a "vote", I much prefer the pressure stick if I can't
have a mouse. Touchpads seem to be in the same niche as mini-trackballs to
me: looks like a great idea but in practice, falls short.

In our office I've had to show people how to disable the touchpad because I
got complaints about "keyboard problems" which were actually due to
accidental touchpad err, touches. Touchpads are also the source of the
drifting cursor problems on many notebooks, whether due to poor
design/construction or accidental damage... like getting squashed/bent in
the overhead of a 'plane.

On the OP, I wonder how much Lenovo would tamper with the Thinkpad
design... since it's been a very successful line over the years. The
machines are all made in China now AFAICT, so it's possible that they might
keep everything as is for a few years before trying to "improve" it. From
what I've been able to gather Lenovo has a good reputation as a mfr in
China and has very high quality standards. If they have a clue, they'll
spin off a company known as something like Thinkpad or Thinksys Corp.
(assuming they get a license to the name as part of the deal) and keep the
quality.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 01:46:50 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>Gary L. wrote:
>> So my question is: what other options exist? I want similar build
>> quality as compared to the ThinkPad, decent driver support, good
>> battery life and freedom from pre-installed garbage like AOL, previews
>> of Disney games and MS Works.
>
>I don't know, maybe an Acer Ferrari notebook? They are supposed to
>be using the special Ferrari car paint on those things' cases (yeah,
>right!), so I would assume it's a metallic casing too. And it will allow
>you to out-pose the Mac-crack posers.

Well, it's probably as close as I'll get to owning an Italian sports
car.

One option that I've been looking at are the Fujitsu laptops. They are
advertising that they emphasize reliability and quality. There is a
multi-page ad in the current edition of PC Mag touting this product as
a reliable business notebook (maybe they knew something?)They have
some Centrino systems (S7000 series) that seem similar in
specifications to the T series. One model that caught my eye was the
S2020 that has an AMD XP-M 2200 CPU, an ATI/ALi chip set with
integrated ATI graphics. It is quite light (under 4 lbs) and the 13"
screen will be adequate for mobile use. They advertise 6 hours of
battery life.

I did see a Fujitsu notebook at Fry's some time back and I can't say
that I liked the feel of the keyboard. Anyone have any experience with
Fujitsu notebooks in general or the S2020 in particular?
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:52:33 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
>I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
>IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
>Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.

Every time I shop for a new laptop, I give the touchpads a try in the
vain hope that they finally figured out a magical way to make it look
like I'm not somebody with giant fingers. They haven't succeeded.

>I would guess that will the pressure-sticks disappearing that I'm not
>alone in my preference. The touchpads are much easier to learn than the
>pressure-sticks, and are usually much quicker to move around. Also the
>touchpads are much closer to actual mouse-like positioning than
>touchpads, whenever the manufacturer is smart enough to place the
>buttoms above the pad rather than below.

The thing with touchpads are they are so imprecise and hard to
control. Sure they are easy to move around... they move with the
slightest touch giving hell of a problem with I type. When I first got
my T30, it used to freak me out why the stupid cursor was flying all
over the place when I typed. Until I remembered it had a touchpad
which promptly got disabled of course.

With a pressure stick, I can do pixel by pixel movements in photoshop
as well as perform almost any pointing stunt I can do with the mouse.
With the touchpad, the only stunt that's happening is how fast my
frustration rises pPpPp

Yes, the touchpad IS easier to use, most people can use it with the
barest of instructions. But as my friend suggested and I tried,
playing an hour or two of solitaire and minesweeper on it makes you
very proficient very quickly. But since you're a nice guy, Yousof,
I'll refrain from making comments about lazy bummers & idiot-proof
like Windows. ;PpPpPP

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 02:43:15 GMT, Gary L. <nospam@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 01:46:50 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Gary L. wrote:
>>> So my question is: what other options exist? I want similar build
>>> quality as compared to the ThinkPad, decent driver support, good
>>> battery life and freedom from pre-installed garbage like AOL, previews
>>> of Disney games and MS Works.
>>
>>I don't know, maybe an Acer Ferrari notebook? They are supposed to
>>be using the special Ferrari car paint on those things' cases (yeah,
>>right!), so I would assume it's a metallic casing too. And it will allow
>>you to out-pose the Mac-crack posers.
>
>Well, it's probably as close as I'll get to owning an Italian sports
>car.
>
>One option that I've been looking at are the Fujitsu laptops. They are
>advertising that they emphasize reliability and quality. There is a
>multi-page ad in the current edition of PC Mag touting this product as
>a reliable business notebook (maybe they knew something?)They have
>some Centrino systems (S7000 series) that seem similar in
>specifications to the T series. One model that caught my eye was the
>S2020 that has an AMD XP-M 2200 CPU, an ATI/ALi chip set with
>integrated ATI graphics. It is quite light (under 4 lbs) and the 13"
>screen will be adequate for mobile use. They advertise 6 hours of
>battery life.
>
>I did see a Fujitsu notebook at Fry's some time back and I can't say
>that I liked the feel of the keyboard. Anyone have any experience with
>Fujitsu notebooks in general or the S2020 in particular?

It may not matter if you never travel out of your country with it but one
thing I've noticed is that Fujitsu has completely different line-ups in
different places - e.g. in Europe they market as Fujitsu-Siemens... with
models we don't see in the U.S. Emergency repairs out of country *could*
be impossible.

I also didn't like their demarcation between Home/SOHO models which could
only be found with WinXP Home and business models with WinXP Pro; a couple
of the former I'd have liked to see with a Pro version - made no sense to
me.

At one time Toshiba used to make notebooks with cases about as well
designed as IBM Thinkpads but the ones I've seen recently just didn't cut
it for me. I've been wondering more about Asus and MSI who both make
excellent mbrds but it's difficult to lay your hands on one to check it
out.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> FWIG, this isn't in the cards. The reports were apparently
> a tad premature. *YOY* would IBM give up their name?
> Why would anyone buy the line without it?

Two excellent questions. I can see some fit (IBM design expertise
matched with Lenovo mfg cost advantage) but the marketing side
is scarey as always. Lexmark may be the pattern.

Perhaps the Chinese only want the skills? Does White
Plains have any qualms selling lifers down the river?

-- Robert