If you found an exploit, what would you do?

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the EQ2
players, EQ2), what would you do?

For me, the question isn't academic. Last night I found a repeatable
quest which yields between 1750 and 3500 pp per hour, which involves no risk
whatsoever and can be done by a brand new level 1 character. This is a
Yantis exploit waiting to happen. At first I hadn't considered the cash
aspect, and helped a few guildmates get the quest reward quickly. Then, out
of curiosity, I went to a vendor and tried to sell the quest item - over 100
pp for an item that took under 2 minutes to get (and I hadn't bound at one
quest NPC or done any other tricks to speed things up). Yikes. I went to
chat, found what server had a GM online, went to that server and created a
level 1 character, sent a direct tell to the GM, and demonstrated for him
how quickly I could rack up the cash. He sent me back to chat, he talked
with the devs, aaaand... they asked me to file a bug report. It took two bug
reports to give a complete description of the issue - hopefully the devs put
the two together to get the full picture. And hopefully they do this
quickly, before the bots start racking up 80 K a day.

James
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I would tell your good friend Monual, who badly needs PP to buy runes!

I guess I'd do exactly what you did and /bug it. I'd also avoid using it,
because who knows if SOE will decide to crack down and ban everyone who made
plat off of it.


--
-Richard

Monual Lifegiver
Prelate of Rodcet Nife
Drinal server
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <kbydnQlhx7s0FHjcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Chris Anderson wrote:
> It's not an academic question for me, either. A few years ago, I found a
> dup bug. I verified it, filed a bug report, and sent email to SOE
> customer support. I then waited. Nothing.
>
> A week later, I got a GM on chat and demonstrated it to him. I filed
> another bug report, and sent another email to SOE CS.
>
> I was then suspended for 7 days.
>
> Four months later, the dup bug was finally fixed. By that time, other

Assuming the only times you exploited the bug were your initial discovery,
one verification before filing the bug report, and one time a week later to
show a GM, then what I would have done upon getting suspended is post
details to a few major forums and to usenet, on the theory that maybe that
would get them to actually take a look at the damn bug, instead of just
shooting the messenger.

--
--Tim Smith
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Tim Smith wrote:
> In article <kbydnQlhx7s0FHjcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
> Assuming the only times you exploited the bug were your initial discovery,
> one verification before filing the bug report, and one time a week later to
> show a GM, then what I would have done upon getting suspended is post
> details to a few major forums and to usenet, on the theory that maybe that
> would get them to actually take a look at the damn bug, instead of just
> shooting the messenger.

I doubt SOE reads usenet. You're right, I should have posted details to
forums, but honestly, I was so shocked at their actions that I did
nothing. The GM I demonstrated it to was shocked that I had been
suspended as well.

And no, it took some time to reproduce the bug so that I could do it
consistently. But I also didn't profit off of it, either. The bug was
a method of duping a stack of items, and it took some time to figure out
how to get it to happen on demand. I was using stacks of summoned food,
but I could just as easily been using blue diamonds.

After I figured it out, I used it once more to show the GM. He had me
do several dups, using specific GM items, so that he could verify the bug.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <ovfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12>, James Grahame wrote:
> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the EQ2
> players, EQ2), what would you do?

Treat it like an exploitable security hole in any other software. There are
a couple of different approaches that are common for that.

One is to notify the vendor (SOE in this case), and if they reasonably
acknowledge the problem, and appear to be taking reasonable steps to fix
it, wait. If they deny or ignore the problem, publish the details. This
approach is fairly common. (You publish because the bad guys usually find
this stuff out anyway, so keeping it secret just makes it harder for the
people who aren't bad guys to know what the bad guys are up to).

Another is similar, but you publish the details after giving them a head
start, without waiting to see if they are actually addressing the problem or
not. You might consider delaying if they argue that the fix is very
difficult or time consuming. This approach is also fairly common.

Another approach (favored by noted computer security expert Dan Bernstein)
is to immediately publish the details of the problem. His reasoning is that
almost all security problems could have been prevented with proper care and
design and testing, but because people are "nice" to the vendors (e.g., the
first two approaches), there isn't really incentive to produce secure code
in the first place. It is cheaper to produce insecure code, and only fix
things that people find. Giving the vendor any warning before publishing
just encourages them to continue with their poor practices.

--
--Tim Smith
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:33:45 -0800 in
<kbydnQlhx7s0FHjcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Chris Anderson
<chris.a.anderson@comcast.net> graced the world with this thought:

>It's not an academic question for me, either. A few years ago, I found
>a dup bug. I verified it, filed a bug report, and sent email to SOE
>customer support. I then waited. Nothing.
>
>A week later, I got a GM on chat and demonstrated it to him. I filed
>another bug report, and sent another email to SOE CS.
>
>I was then suspended for 7 days.

lol... funny, I started reading this, and thought "ah, yes, I remember
when they used to suspend people who reported bugs."

That has got to be the stupidest damn policy they've ever had. I
wonder if they still do it.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:11:00 GMT in <ovfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12>,
"James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> graced the world with this
thought:

> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the EQ2
>players, EQ2), what would you do?
>
> For me, the question isn't academic. Last night I found a repeatable
>quest which yields between 1750 and 3500 pp per hour, which involves no risk
>whatsoever and can be done by a brand new level 1 character. This is a
>Yantis exploit waiting to happen. At first I hadn't considered the cash
>aspect, and helped a few guildmates get the quest reward quickly. Then, out
>of curiosity, I went to a vendor and tried to sell the quest item - over 100
>pp for an item that took under 2 minutes to get (and I hadn't bound at one
>quest NPC or done any other tricks to speed things up). Yikes. I went to
>chat, found what server had a GM online, went to that server and created a
>level 1 character, sent a direct tell to the GM, and demonstrated for him
>how quickly I could rack up the cash. He sent me back to chat, he talked
>with the devs, aaaand... they asked me to file a bug report. It took two bug
>reports to give a complete description of the issue - hopefully the devs put
>the two together to get the full picture. And hopefully they do this
>quickly, before the bots start racking up 80 K a day.
>
> James
>
The one time I applied for a guide's position about three years ago,
the question was asked "what would you do if, after a patch, you
discovered items rated far above the level of the npc it came off of,
or in a zone it shouldn't be in?" or something along that line
I answered "first I'd fill every slot in my bank box, then I'd tell
all my friends."
Needless to say, I didn't get the spot. They really need to work on
their sense of humor down there.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the
EQ2
> players, EQ2), what would you do?
>
why hasn't anyone suggested posting it here for all your a.g.e. friends ?
😉

* ducks and waits for the mallet bash to the head*

--
eq2.najena.Simonette
eq2.najena.Floriana
eq.bristlebane.Simonette
eq.bristlebane.Agapanthus
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

If you ever stumble upon an exploit, never report it yourself. You will get
banned.


"James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the EQ2
> players, EQ2), what would you do?
>
> For me, the question isn't academic. Last night I found a repeatable
> quest which yields between 1750 and 3500 pp per hour, which involves no risk
> whatsoever and can be done by a brand new level 1 character. This is a
> Yantis exploit waiting to happen. At first I hadn't considered the cash
> aspect, and helped a few guildmates get the quest reward quickly. Then, out
> of curiosity, I went to a vendor and tried to sell the quest item - over 100
> pp for an item that took under 2 minutes to get (and I hadn't bound at one
> quest NPC or done any other tricks to speed things up). Yikes. I went to
> chat, found what server had a GM online, went to that server and created a
> level 1 character, sent a direct tell to the GM, and demonstrated for him
> how quickly I could rack up the cash. He sent me back to chat, he talked
> with the devs, aaaand... they asked me to file a bug report. It took two bug
> reports to give a complete description of the issue - hopefully the devs put
> the two together to get the full picture. And hopefully they do this
> quickly, before the bots start racking up 80 K a day.
>
> James
>
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the
EQ2
> players, EQ2), what would you do?

Make as much pp and profit off it as I could before SoE close it down.

<puts little finger near mouth>

Muwhahhahahhahaha

Etc.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Grahame wrote:
> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the
EQ2
> players, EQ2), what would you do?

In EQ2, I would exploit said bug until I racked up a huge (but not
suspiciously huge) sum of in-game money. Then, I would sell my
"ill-gotten" gains on ebay for large sums of real world cash. Then, I
would repeat this process until a less intelligent person reported this
bug or SoE caught on and banned me. I would then take all of my real
world cash and buy myself something nice, like a new sofa.

It's not my job or moral obligation to play Quality Assurance for any
company, especially when I'm a paying customer, and especially not if
it's in my real world financial interests not to.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:45:19 +0100, "The Uber Nuker"
<ubernuker@powers.net> wrote:

>If you ever stumble upon an exploit, never report it yourself. You will get
>banned.

I see our top-posting jackass troll is still around.

No, they've learned their lesson. And I honestly think that when
people were banned for reporting 'em way back, it was just overzealous
GMs and not company policy.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Grahame wrote:
> "Pamela Carlton" <lambchop@whocareswhere.com> wrote in message
> news:tLiFd.116384$K7.88330@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
> >> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or,
for the
> > EQ2
> >> players, EQ2), what would you do?
> >>
> > why hasn't anyone suggested posting it here for all your a.g.e.
friends ?
> > 😉
> >
> > * ducks and waits for the mallet bash to the head*
>
> Well, I can now, since the quest was taken out of game as of
yesterday.
> 🙂
>
> The Drape of Firiona quest (part of the lead-in to the new
expansion)
> worked like this: get four ground spawns (two in Butcherblock, two in

> Greater Faydark). Hand to NPC in Felwithe A. He gives you an item for
NPC in
> Felwithe B. Turning in that item starts a quest dialogue, at the end
of
> which you get an item for another NPC in Felwithe A. Hand to her, get
an
> item for the first NPC in Felwithe A, who gives you a Drape of
Firiona:
>
> SHOULDER - MAGIC, LORE
> AC: 12
> DEX: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +45 MANA: +40 ENDUR: +40
> SV FIRE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +7
> Required level of 40.
> WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
> Class: ALL
> Race: ALL
> Slot 1, Type 7
>
> I did the quest for my enchanter, then realized, hmm - the NPC in

> Felwithe B gives you the note as a result of saying a quest phrase. I
wonder
> if I needed to hand in the ground spawns for the quest phrase to
work?
>
> No, I didn't.
>
> So now, all it takes to get a fairly nice item is running around
> Felwithe a bit. Cool! Wait, this item is droppable and the last
turn-in NPC
> is maybe 10-15 units from the Felwithe Tribute Master - I wonder how
much
> tribute it's worth? 125? Not bad! But, an item usually has tribute
roughly
> equal to its sale price... 118 pp with 90 CHA. Ruh-roh!
>
> I had a guildmate time me. Just under 110 seconds to run, with
level 47
> SoW, from the first NPC until I got a Drape (so a full circuit for
someone
> exploiting the quest). That included time to zone from A to B and
back to A.
> I didn't use any tricks to shorten the time, like binding at the
Felwithe B
> NPC or creating a quest phrase hotkey. Assuming it would add 25
seconds onto
> my trip to also sell and bank the result after each circuit, you're
still
> looking at over 3000 pp per hour from a very automated process. I was

> tempted to get the level 1 high elf paladin I was using to
demonstrate the
> error full store-bought plate before asking the GM to look into it,
but I
> was worried he might log before I was done. So I did my good deed for
the
> day!
>
> James

Nice, I did the first part of quest the way it was intended and never
thought about that.

Although having it completed on a server, Bertoxx is the one I think,
was a reasonable reason for ending the quest, I now wonder if the
exploit you discovered might have been a contributing reason. Just
because it was completed on one server should not deny players/guilds
on other servers from trying to complete the quest too. I was trying to
do the second part (Butcherblock port and Freeport) when I and another
quester found the dwarf on the pier didn't give the quest text nor
respond to the quest phrases. Then he despawned.

But if there was an exploit that SOE probably couldn't figure out a
workaround, they'd take the quick solution and deactivate the quest. If
they figure out a way to prevent the exploit, they might reinstate the
quest for awhile (one could hope).

=30=
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On 2005-01-12, Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> is to immediately publish the details of the problem. His reasoning is that
> almost all security problems could have been prevented with proper care and
> design and testing, but because people are "nice" to the vendors (e.g., the
> first two approaches), there isn't really incentive to produce secure code
> in the first place. It is cheaper to produce insecure code, and only fix
> things that people find. Giving the vendor any warning before publishing
> just encourages them to continue with their poor practices.
>

An argument that assumes the burden of early disclosure falls on
the vendor, not the vendors customers, and that there is sufficient
choice in the marketplace for the customers to obtain an alternative
vendor with better security practices while still providing the
required functionality at a competitive price point.

I've not yet seen that market 😉 Report the bug to Sony, if nothing
happens in a week or two then email the bug to their head of CSR
outlining the possible consequences. If nothing happens then post
it on their forumns 😉

Matt
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"The Uber Nuker" <ubernuker@powers.net> wrote in
news:cs4cpt$7ct$1@services.kq.no:

>
> "James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
>> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for
>> the EQ2
>> players, EQ2), what would you do?
>>
>> For me, the question isn't academic. Last night I found a
>> repeatable
>> quest which yields between 1750 and 3500 pp per hour, which involves
>> no risk whatsoever and can be done by a brand new level 1 character.
>> This is a Yantis exploit waiting to happen. At first I hadn't
>> considered the cash aspect, and helped a few guildmates get the quest
>> reward quickly. Then, out of curiosity, I went to a vendor and tried
>> to sell the quest item - over 100 pp for an item that took under 2
>> minutes to get (and I hadn't bound at one quest NPC or done any other
>> tricks to speed things up). Yikes. I went to chat, found what server
>> had a GM online, went to that server and created a level 1 character,
>> sent a direct tell to the GM, and demonstrated for him how quickly I
>> could rack up the cash. He sent me back to chat, he talked with the
>> devs, aaaand... they asked me to file a bug report. It took two bug
>> reports to give a complete description of the issue - hopefully the
>> devs put the two together to get the full picture. And hopefully they
>> do this quickly, before the bots start racking up 80 K a day.
>
> If you ever stumble upon an exploit, never report it yourself. You
> will get banned.
>

As evidenced by the fact that he did indeed report it, and, I am making a
wild guess here, was not banned for it...

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 69 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 21 Dwarven Mystic, 19 Scholar
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

bizbee <tuberoo@earthlink.net> wrote in news:KziFd.5836$Ii4.1755
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:33:45 -0800 in
> <kbydnQlhx7s0FHjcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Chris Anderson
> <chris.a.anderson@comcast.net> graced the world with this thought:
>
>>It's not an academic question for me, either. A few years ago, I found
>>a dup bug. I verified it, filed a bug report, and sent email to SOE
>>customer support. I then waited. Nothing.
>>
>>A week later, I got a GM on chat and demonstrated it to him. I filed
>>another bug report, and sent another email to SOE CS.
>>
>>I was then suspended for 7 days.
>
> lol... funny, I started reading this, and thought "ah, yes, I remember
> when they used to suspend people who reported bugs."
>
> That has got to be the stupidest damn policy they've ever had. I
> wonder if they still do it.
>

Looks like they did not for James so far anyway. A policy like that is
designed to assure that people take advantage of the exploit to the hilt,
and publicize it instead of quietly letting SoE know about the problem,
and perhaps even fix it prior to it's abuse getting out of control.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 69 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 21 Dwarven Mystic, 19 Scholar
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Pamela Carlton" <lambchop@whocareswhere.com> wrote in message
news:tLiFd.116384$K7.88330@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "James Grahame" <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news😱vfFd.21779$06.5761@clgrps12...
>> Simple question, really. If you found an exploit in EQ (or, for the
> EQ2
>> players, EQ2), what would you do?
>>
> why hasn't anyone suggested posting it here for all your a.g.e. friends ?
> 😉
>
> * ducks and waits for the mallet bash to the head*

Well, I can now, since the quest was taken out of game as of yesterday.
🙂

The Drape of Firiona quest (part of the lead-in to the new expansion)
worked like this: get four ground spawns (two in Butcherblock, two in
Greater Faydark). Hand to NPC in Felwithe A. He gives you an item for NPC in
Felwithe B. Turning in that item starts a quest dialogue, at the end of
which you get an item for another NPC in Felwithe A. Hand to her, get an
item for the first NPC in Felwithe A, who gives you a Drape of Firiona:

SHOULDER - MAGIC, LORE
AC: 12
DEX: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +45 MANA: +40 ENDUR: +40
SV FIRE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +7
Required level of 40.
WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

I did the quest for my enchanter, then realized, hmm - the NPC in
Felwithe B gives you the note as a result of saying a quest phrase. I wonder
if I needed to hand in the ground spawns for the quest phrase to work?

No, I didn't.

So now, all it takes to get a fairly nice item is running around
Felwithe a bit. Cool! Wait, this item is droppable and the last turn-in NPC
is maybe 10-15 units from the Felwithe Tribute Master - I wonder how much
tribute it's worth? 125? Not bad! But, an item usually has tribute roughly
equal to its sale price... 118 pp with 90 CHA. Ruh-roh!

I had a guildmate time me. Just under 110 seconds to run, with level 47
SoW, from the first NPC until I got a Drape (so a full circuit for someone
exploiting the quest). That included time to zone from A to B and back to A.
I didn't use any tricks to shorten the time, like binding at the Felwithe B
NPC or creating a quest phrase hotkey. Assuming it would add 25 seconds onto
my trip to also sell and bank the result after each circuit, you're still
looking at over 3000 pp per hour from a very automated process. I was
tempted to get the level 1 high elf paladin I was using to demonstrate the
error full store-bought plate before asking the GM to look into it, but I
was worried he might log before I was done. So I did my good deed for the
day!

James
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

James Grahame <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote:
> The Drape of Firiona quest (part of the lead-in to the new expansion)
> worked like this: get four ground spawns (two in Butcherblock, two in
> Greater Faydark). Hand to NPC in Felwithe A. He gives you an item for NPC in
> Felwithe B. Turning in that item starts a quest dialogue, at the end of
> which you get an item for another NPC in Felwithe A. Hand to her, get an
> item for the first NPC in Felwithe A, who gives you a Drape of Firiona:

> SHOULDER - MAGIC, LORE
> AC: 12
> DEX: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +45 MANA: +40 ENDUR: +40
> SV FIRE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +7
> Required level of 40.
> WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
> Class: ALL
> Race: ALL
> Slot 1, Type 7
Whoa, pardon me. But didn't you say this could be done with a level 1
char? And from reading your description it doesn't sound very
complicated or dangerous to assume otherwise. So SoE really intends lvl1
chars to wear THIS? I know the charm from the tutorial isn't that far
off stat wise. But if they keep at it then they could discard the whole
newbie quests.

I'd vote for a lvl50 button on the char creation screen then.^^


Hagen
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<durragon@web.de> wrote:
> James Grahame <jamesgrahame@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > Required level of 40.
>
> So SoE really intends lvl1 chars to wear THIS?

Go go reading comprehension. =P
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

In article <nrs8sc.m01.ln@arellarti.fqdn.th-h.de>, Hagen Sienhold wrote:
>> SHOULDER - MAGIC, LORE
>> AC: 12
>> DEX: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +45 MANA: +40 ENDUR: +40
>> SV FIRE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +7
+---------------------+
/|Required level of 40.|
+ +---------------------+
>>|/ /
+---------------------+
>> WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
>> Class: ALL
>> Race: ALL
>> Slot 1, Type 7
> Whoa, pardon me. But didn't you say this could be done with a level 1
> char? And from reading your description it doesn't sound very
> complicated or dangerous to assume otherwise. So SoE really intends lvl1
> chars to wear THIS? I know the charm from the tutorial isn't that far

I've raised the part you overlooked to make it easier to see. 🙂

--
--Tim Smith
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> In article <nrs8sc.m01.ln@arellarti.fqdn.th-h.de>, Hagen Sienhold wrote:
>>> SHOULDER - MAGIC, LORE
>>> AC: 12
>>> DEX: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +45 MANA: +40 ENDUR: +40
>>> SV FIRE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +7
> +---------------------+
> /|Required level of 40.|
> + +---------------------+
>>>|/ /
> +---------------------+
>>> WT: 1.0 Size: SMALL
>>> Class: ALL
>>> Race: ALL
>>> Slot 1, Type 7
>> Whoa, pardon me. But didn't you say this could be done with a level 1
>> char? And from reading your description it doesn't sound very
>> complicated or dangerous to assume otherwise. So SoE really intends lvl1
>> chars to wear THIS? I know the charm from the tutorial isn't that far

> I've raised the part you overlooked to make it easier to see. 🙂
Well you and Faned got me there. 😉


Hagen
 
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