Image Quality investigation at Anandtech

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 11, 2003

An interesting article with some good comparisons.

Come to your own conclusion.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1931" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1931</A>

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

bandikoot · Dec 11, 2003

Since neither of them are perfect, I guess we're back to square one. "I get more fps than you!" :tongue: Seriously though, it would be nice to think that this time next decade we won't be argueing about IQ, though I suppose we'd find something else to argue about if all issues got fixed. I wonder how powerful the cards will have to get before the need to estimate things lessons?

kinney · Dec 11, 2003

We can say that it appears from the tests we've done that, generally, NVIDIA hardware does more work than ATI.

Yay!!!

Honestly, it is up to the reader to determine what aspects of image quality are important, and how much of what we covered is relevant.

Yup, and I could care less what optimizations are done.. if I have to photochop a screenshot of a 300fps FPS at 200x zoom to see the difference!
Thats been my conclusion since everyone started in on digging at NV for poor IQ... and was my stance when ATI was being crucified by a bunch of fanboys for Quack 3..

edit- Sorry thats 800x zoom used in that review!
My personal take is that NVs superior IQ w/o AA/AF is more important than superior AA quality. I cant remember the last time I upgraded my video card for better AA.
Snideness aside, I dont even use either AA or AF. I would say it would in most cases (99.9%) be something you'd worry about AFTER primary IQ.
But its not often that I zoom in on my FSAA...

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOYEdited by kinney on 12/11/03 01:33 PM.

cleeve · Dec 11, 2003

I've got to say, Nvidia's new drivers seem to be a big improvement over the pre-forceware shameless cheaters that caused really obvious artifacts/discrepancies.

I've got to say though, in my opine, Ati's superior Antialiassing is more important and more obvious in gameplay than Nvidia's superior filtering. But everyone will have their own opinion on that.

What I'm REALLY interested in, is image quality comparisons of shader-heavy effects, and high-dynamic-range lighting screenshot differences. I'd like to know if the forceware compilers are taking any shortcuts to get their performance increase...

Not that it matters all that much right now... but I have a feeling it'll matter alot in the next two years.

________________
Radeon 9500 PRO (hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)
AthlonXP 2600+ (o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)
3dMark03: 4,055

GeneticWeapon · Dec 11, 2003

generally, NVIDIA hardware does more work than ATI.

Kinney wrote

Yay!!!

A four cylinder engine does more work then a V8 but I'll take the V8 any day :tongue:

Play MotoGP 2
<A HREF="http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/091203-Moto1.jpg" target="_new">http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/091203-Moto1.jpg</A>

cleeve · Dec 11, 2003

Snideness aside, I dont even use either AA or AF. I would say it would in most cases (99.9%) be something you'd worry about AFTER primary IQ.

Whoa there Kinney!

AA and AF are *very* significant, especially when it comes to upgrading, for lots of people.

Surely for most of the hardcore gamers I know. Hell, if it weren't for AA and AF, there'd be very little reason to buy anything better than a 9600 PRO or Geforce4 Ti.

For me personally, if it weren't for the Radeon 8500's poor AA, I wouldn't have bothere'd upgrading it until they released something it couldn't play well... maybe HL2 or Doom3 or something.

________________
Radeon 9500 PRO (hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)
AthlonXP 2600+ (o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)
3dMark03: 4,055

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 11, 2003

Yep, they are pretty close in quality now. They both have anomalies (I notice the rendering issues with nV and Halo weren't brought up but the Flashlight issue was [that game has so many problems for everyone!]).

The main thing is that now we are getting parity which makes it easier to focus on the benchmarks when making decisions. The increased frame rates at the cost of IQ in the 4X.XX series drivers made for unrealistic comparisons because they ended up with vastly different images.

The funny thing is that in this review there is little mention of the FPS in these tests. The FXs have always had the possibility of much better IQ, but at the price of speed. In order to get equal speed they have compromised quality. Now with the run-time compiler there seems to be parity in image quality using partial precision.

Yeah HDL is still an area of weakness and it would be nice to see how the run-time compiler works with that.

I'd like to know if the forceware compilers are taking any shortcuts to get their performance increase

Of course they are, that's the point really, but if they achieve the same/similar results, then why not. It's like the AA/AF advanatages, they are definitely taking 'shortcuts', but in the end it results in better looking results in many cases. The difference is an architecture issue versus a driver issue, but as long as the end results are comparable, it's OK IMO.
Yeah I dont think it matters now, but of course it may in the future.

I still prefer IQ comparisons during a review like Digit-life does. It allows you to combine all aspects to get a better overall picture. However any info is good.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

cleeve · Dec 11, 2003

Of course they are, that's the point really

Well, from what I understood, the re-compiling of instructions does not mean that there is a quality loss, just that the instructions would be performed in a fashon that suits the GPU's capabilities more efficiently.
But mathematically, recompiling should come up with the exact same result.

A crude analogy is hyperthreading I guess, getting more performance out of a CPU by more efficiently handling calculations. But the results of those calculations are the same with or without the performance boost of hyperthreading.

Which is separate from "cheating" stuff like partial precision, etc... and that's what I'd like to see analyzed/compared/reviewed.

________________
Radeon 9500 PRO (hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)
AthlonXP 2600+ (o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)
3dMark03: 4,055

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 11, 2003

Likely the next generation will pose comlpetely different issues and differences. But I would think image quality isn't likely to be a major hurdle unless there are floptimizations by either company. You will likely see speed difference between the architectures dual VPU versus single more powerful VPUs, ?x1 pixel engine versus ?x2, there will alwayws be some aspects that each maker thinks will make their card better, and that will always give us cause to say 'who's doing this better under X application'.

I think FPS will start staking less focus as we move on. Games like D]|[ are supposed to be FPS limited. The differences will likely be all about features and effects. Hopefully they stay close together. The closer the card makers get in feature the more effect price will have as a determinant.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 12, 2003

Oh certainly, no I meant, it's a 'shortcut' not the same as a cheat since the end result is good. If re-arranging the code results in beter use of the 4X2 engine with the same end result, then that's fine but it must be mentioned it's not the standard method which takes longer, it is their 'shortcut' answer which seems to be very effective.

The thing is though that the compiler does do more than just re-arrange the code to accomplish exactly the same thing, it substitutes 16bit (and 12bit IIRC) in where 32 isn't really needed, and where it won't change the image quality of the end product, just the speed at which it is rendered. It seems to be working effectively so far, but of course they have to get their hands on the product first before they can decide how the run-time compiler handles the code (where to do the mix), which usually means a lag to titles that aren't TWIMTBP. But in the end if the results are the same it's not a big issue. And if ATI is also moving to 32 bit, maybe we'll see something similar coming out of them.

I don't think we'll notice the differences due to partial precision if it's done right. Only time will tell, maybe aspect of DX9 or even higher resolutions will expose weaknesses in either method, who knows.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

This is very true!
..hurts my heart to put my firebird (LT1 5.7ltr) away for the winter. :frown:

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I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

Whoa there Kinney!

AA and AF are *very* significant, especially when it comes to upgrading, for lots of people.

Surely for most of the hardcore gamers I know. Hell, if it weren't for AA and AF, there'd be very little reason to buy anything better than a 9600 PRO or Geforce4 Ti.

For me personally, if it weren't for the Radeon 8500's poor AA, I wouldn't have bothere'd upgrading it until they released something it couldn't play well... maybe HL2 or Doom3 or something.

I agree, but I didnt realize this cuz I'd be using a GF3 for so long... my 9800pro was so much of a waste for me.

I'm certainly not a hardcore gamer. I spend more time typing posts than playing games!
Maybe I should stick with my GF2!

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 12, 2003

Hell, if it weren't for AA and AF, there'd be very little reason to buy anything better than a 9600 PRO or Geforce4 Ti.

I like the pretty boxes they come in.

Hoping for an Evil Ballerina/Figure Skater for the R42X. Gotta have something to combat Dusk, the Monkey just ain't doing it, even for ME!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

BTW ape, I wanted to apologize for my arrogant attitude the last week or so.
Name calling certainly isnt mature, nor professional by any means (believe it or not, I consider myself a professional(!), not in the gfx field though..) Sometimes my posts arent always consistent, I dont know everything but I try, thats about all I can do. I try to keep an open mind but that doesnt always happen.
Like everyone, I have bad days/weeks or wake up on the wrong side of the bed.
If the exchanges were too much for you to let go, I understand and respect that. I wouldnt look at that as you are a lesser man for it.
I enjoy it here and you obviously do also. Sometimes a good flame fight gets me going in the (very early) morning before bedtime

. I admit I was wrong in the CS thread, I did read your post incorrectly as being snide (and reacted how I felt was appropriate), yet reading your explanation I understand where I got screwed up.
But not everything goes over my head, as you stated. Its hard to tell the connotation of a post sometimes.

Just wanted to 'officially' extend my hand in goodwill.

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

dhlucke · Dec 12, 2003

If you take a game like Neverwinter Nights and play it on a GF2 it's kinda boring and repetitive. Hack and slash. Not very pretty.

If you take the same game and play it with a Radeon 9800 Pro it's playable.

If you then turn all the eye candy on it's fun.

To make a long story short I went from:

GF2 Pro > GF4 4200 > GF2 Pro > GF4 4600 > GF2 Pro > GF4 4600 > GF 2 Pro > Radeon 9800 Pro > GF2 Pro > Radeon 9800 Pro

After all the playing around with different drivers, different cards, and different levels of eye candy I really think it makes a big difference with the eye candy on. Games are so much better. It's especially noticible when you go back to an older card and you not only notice the lack of FPS and resolution, but you notice the jaggies. It looks like crap. I could say the same thing about BF1942, UT 2K3 etc etc.

_________________________________________
12 bit... The way games are meant to be played!

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

hey dan havent seen you around much.. i need to get some free time (its finals time) and get in some irc time again..

ya gf2 is lackluster, its playable like you said but the minimum.

did you buy back your 9800? cuz i remember you bought it then returned it. make up your mind man!!
i did sell my 9800pro, because of the reason you stated before.. it was really a purchase for the HL2 release.
I am a necessity upgrade kinda guy.
But its nice having an uber fast card.

I got a gf4 4200 128mb (w/the fast mem) to hold me over until NV40 or R420. It'll be a nice card for my second box.
Next product cycle im buying and it'll be my card for a few years, as long as it will last.

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

dhlucke · Dec 12, 2003

I'm borrowing one. AKA using Best Buy's holiday return policy to my advantage. They released the new expansion to NWN and it was very boring to play on the GF2. Now I can watch two dozen monsters on the screen along with spells flying everywhere in full detail. So much more fun. I couldn't stand the GF2. It was horrible. It's not that it can't play games, it's just that subtle details like shiny water and no jaggies really make a game fun to play. Having to turn down the IQ really wasn't fun. It's such a let down with the GF2. I should add that the GF4's were a major let down as well since I couldn't tell the difference between my GF2 Pro and a GF4 4600.

I'll buy a card in April or whenever HL2 is released. The new cards will be out by then. I really wouldn't have a problem just buying a card now and another one then but the ATI prices haven't dropped in months. I'm not going to drop $300 now and $300 in April.

_________________________________________
12 bit... The way games are meant to be played!

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

Ah best buy.. I dont remember if I told you about my best buy scam on the hard drive... theres still good reasons for retail stores.
I wouldnt be so cheap but I'm in school and dont have a large income now.
I must be a man of low expectations.. my GF3 was fine for me in NWN.
GF4 is going to be a great card upgrade for the next 6-8 more months for me.
edit- actually I havent loaded up a game of NWN for a long time but IIRC it doesnt run very well even on a pretty powerful machine. Its good you didnt buy that card for it, I dont think its the most efficient game

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOYEdited by kinney on 12/11/03 10:32 PM.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Dec 12, 2003

Just wanted to 'officially' extend my hand in goodwill.

Fine. I'll leave it at that. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think a little distance for a while, at least 'til after the holidays, would be best. Just to clear the air.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

Well have a happy holiday season then. That goes for all the THGC board members.
Life is too short (even if we spend it online), for aggressive flame fests (sometimes

) and tho my epenis might be huge, sometimes you just gotta cut it off for the better good.

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

kinney · Dec 12, 2003

Hell, if it weren't for AA and AF, there'd be very little reason to buy anything better than a 9600 PRO or Geforce4 Ti.

For me personally, if it weren't for the Radeon 8500's poor AA, I wouldn't have bothere'd upgrading it until they released something it couldn't play well... maybe HL2 or Doom3 or something.

I forgot to mention that in my last reply. I usually do upgrade for features, but DX features.
I thought HL2 was going to be out soon so I bought a fast DX9 card.

Without being able to use DX9 on any games that I want to play I cant stand holding it for no reason as I watch my money slip away and the new cards pummel it in HL2/Doom 3 in the spring.
I'm much more excited about Doom 3 though and that engine is going to be what I upgrade for when those games are out. Plus valve is teh suck!

I was left with the great AA abilitys.. AA is nice and all but I've never been sold on the feature.
I can see the benefit in a slower paced game, like an adventure game or RTS.

But playing 3d shooters that usually move fast its not something that is appreciated.
I find it strange AA/AF IQ options are so popular in a gaming age when everyone is fragging at 100MPH..

I really enjoy AA/AF in older games like Die by the Sword (still a really fun game) that are limited to 640x480. And even my old GF2 GTS could run AA/AF in that game without slowdowns on an Athlon 700.

It can rid of some shimmering that someone might experience in a newer game but again.. at the pace of the games that are popular (referring to CS speed or above) I never find myself wanting to turn any of that stuff on.
Unless I was trying to justify the $300 I just spent!

I think that the state of AA/AF is just fine for both manufacturers.
Same goes for IQ (well, I consider AA/AF/IQ all image quality issues).

They (reviewers) need to concentrate on ways to benchmark the cards in ways that they cant optimize for.
Thats their job anyway. Heck, even I can run 3dmark [roll eyes].
A few custom timedemos (which they do use) or not standardizing on a few games across all the hardware sites would help and losing the pointless 3dmark crap out would be quite a boon to users and we wouldnt be talking about this.

I would be sold on ATI or NV if they'd concentrate on something much cooler, like Truform support for ANY older game based on DX (no patching needed). I was disappointed with the state of that feature in my 9800. It has plenty of power to do truform in any older game.

That would blow me away to see them to rig their cards to do that.

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY

TheRod · Dec 12, 2003

You forget a thing here...

CPU can't do partial precision... GPU can...

No one would accept calculation mistakes in spreadsheets or data manipulation.

In contrast, Image Quality is pretty subjective and how much is too much??? It's hard to tell...

The only thing I hope is that they will not do TOO much to "optimise" the speed in games.

--
Would you buy a GPS enabled soap bar?

Image Quality investigation at Anandtech

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