infinite loops

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

I vaguely remember there was a rule in the old days that prohibited
'infinite' loops. If a loop could be done arbitrarily often it was
allowed only once or something like that. Was there ever such a rule or
was it probably just in our playgroup?

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I vaguely remember there was a rule in the old days that prohibited
> 'infinite' loops. If a loop could be done arbitrarily often it was
> allowed only once or something like that. Was there ever such a rule or
> was it probably just in our playgroup?

"only ONCE"? No, that must have been in your playgroup.

421. Handling "Infinite" Loops

421.1. Occasionally the game can get into a state in which a set of
actions could be repeated forever. These rules (sometimes called the
"infinity rules") govern how to break such loops.

421.2. If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player
controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as
repeating that many times or until the other player intervenes,
whichever comes first.

421.3. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by
each player and actions by both players are required to continue the
loop, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player then has
two choices. He or she can choose a lower number, in which case the loop
continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for
the active player to "have the last word." Or he or she can agree to the
number the active player chose, in which case the loop continues that
number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the nonactive
player to "have the last word." (Note that either fraction may be zero.)
Example: One player controls a creature with the ability "{o0}: [This
creature] gains flying." Another player controls a permanent with the
ability "{o0}: Target creature loses flying." The "infinity rule"
ensures that regardless of which player initiated the gain/lose flying
ability, the nonactive player will always have the final choice and
therefore be able to determine whether the creature has flying. (Note
that this assumes that the first player attempted to give the creature
flying at least once.)

421.4. If the loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a
draw. (See rule 102.6.)

421.5. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by
each player and these actions don't depend on one another, the active
player chooses a number. The nonactive player can either agree to that
number or choose a higher number. Note that this rule applies even if
the actions could exist in separate loops rather than in a single loop.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>I vaguely remember there was a rule in the old days that prohibited
>'infinite' loops. If a loop could be done arbitrarily often it was
>allowed only once or something like that. Was there ever such a rule or
>was it probably just in our playgroup?

That particular version of the rule was probably specific to your playgroup.
Magic _does_ have a set of rules on how to 'break' unbounded loops - Magic
only uses finite integers, there's no way to get to "infinity" legally inside
the game - 421.* covers these. [The section is slightly confusing, but is
broken down by whether there are optional actions in the loop, and who controls
them, for its cases.]

Quick summary: if there are NO optional actions in the loop - no choices that
can be made by anyone, no "may" statements, nothing - the game is a draw. If
there are, one player or the other gets to pick a number, see the rulebook
for specifics on who and when, and the loop is treated as going around that
many times and then stopping. (After which the next -optional- action has to
not be the one that would continue the loop.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 15 May 2004, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I vaguely remember there was a rule in the old days that prohibited
> > 'infinite' loops. If a loop could be done arbitrarily often it was
> > allowed only once or something like that. Was there ever such a rule or
> > was it probably just in our playgroup?
>
> "only ONCE"? No, that must have been in your playgroup.
>
<quoted rules snipped>

I know current rules (or at least where to find them and how to read
them most of the time). But I was talking about a long time ago, when
rules weren't that clear, and I didn't know how to play by the rules
at all yet.

I 'remembered' it because a friend of mine who stopped playing a long
time ago sayd something like "aren't loops prohibited?" (but ofcourse
in dutch).

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>> "only ONCE"? No, that must have been in your playgroup.
>>
><quoted rules snipped>
>
>I know current rules (or at least where to find them and how to read
>them most of the time). But I was talking about a long time ago, when
>rules weren't that clear, and I didn't know how to play by the rules
>at all yet.

Okay. But I don't remember a time when the rule about loops was that you could
only go around once. There have been various sets of rules over the years
(including one memorable set that never went public which would have involved,
essentially, an _infinite_ integer in addition to the standard ones, named
"Mondo"), but I don't remember one where you couldn't at least pick a number
and do it that many times for loops there were choices in.

>I 'remembered' it because a friend of mine who stopped playing a long
>time ago sayd something like "aren't loops prohibited?" (but ofcourse
>in dutch).

"Infinity" is prohibited - that may possibly maybe have gotten mixed up with
the loop concept by your friend?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.