Question Intel CPUs Don’t Support ECC Memory: How Bad For A/V Quality?

[soundtrek]

This discussion may only serve to reveal my less than complete knowledge of A/V digital signal processing rather than raise questions which audibly or not impact signal quality. However, the concerns raised stem from here. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...es-intel-for-lack-of-ecc-ram-in-consumer-pcs/

The report initially describes and quotes Mr. Torvalds’ contempt for Intel’s refusal to support error correcting ECC memory which apparently impacts his interest with server hardware, computational computing and other non-home theater related tasks. But later discussed are claims, though unspecified, where consumers-presumably home users-can also suffer from non-ECC memory generated errors.

Thus, if the lack of ECC memory would leave the computer audiophile vulnerable to errors, however infrequent, in what form would they be? Would they manifest as permanent audible “clicks” during the re-digitizing of music in 24 bit audio and/or when downloaded from stores like https://www.hdtracks.com/ ? Has anyone experienced this? If not perhaps because such errors may be even more noticeable and more frequently occurring from much more common be still respectably sounding 16 bit audio?

OTOH, would such errors be more noticeable if downloading or playing 1080p or especially 4K video, though both requiring far more digital bandwidth (e.g. bit depth?) than even 24 bit audio? However, the ears are likely more sensitive than the eyes to digital audio errors.

In any case, do AMD brand Ryzen CPUs and motherboards support ECC memory?

And which if any other motherboard brands do also?

But if so would such consumer desktop systems tend to create more heat induced fan noise than desktops with comparable Intel CPUs and motherboards performing the same kinds of work loads, such as 1080p video editing-and full length movie playbacks via https://jriver.com/overview.html ?

 

[kerberos_20]

well that small possibility is there, thats why video/audio encoders have crc/md5 checksum error checks, coz even CPU or some traces between devices can produce errors
those crc/md5 data should be stored inside produced file , so any player crc/md5 capable can play it the way it was ment

unluess u go with some free/cracked encoder/converter combined with super fast mode


as for ryzen, all ryzen CPUS supports it
mainboards some do and some do not
those that do may boot, but no ECC bits correction or they provide zero information about how to configure it
but ecc toys are there, on some boards they will work
as far as i know most asrock and some asusboards have official ecc support
msi will boot, but no ecc function

 

[SamirD]

Anytime something is corrupted in memory, there is potential for something to go wrong. For a 24-bit raw recording, a single bit probably wouldn't be noticed. On a highly compressed mp3, it would probably be very noticed. Basically the more critical a single bit is, the more likely a bit error would cause an issue.

 

[soundtrek]

Anytime something is corrupted in memory, there is potential for something to go wrong. For a 24-bit raw recording, a single bit probably wouldn't be noticed. On a highly compressed mp3, it would probably be very noticed. Basically the more critical a single bit is, the more likely a bit error would cause an issue.

Yes, what I would have expected. If only digital A/V had arrived earlier then maybe record labels would have originally skipped over 16 bit CDs in favor of 24 bit DVDs. Speaking of which, do virtually all of the better audiophile DACs in the $5000 range employ some kind of interpolation or even extrapolation schemes to predict the values of missing data in a 16 bit recording that might have been extant if the recording were a 24 bit recording? If yes, you would know which make and/or model DACs are especially good at doing this?

 

[soundtrek]

Well that small possibility is there, Thats why video/audio encoders have crc/md5 checksum error checks, coz even CPU or some traces between devices can produce errors

Those crc/md5 data should be stored inside produced file , so any player crc/md5 capable can play it the way it was meant unless u go with some free/cracked encoder/converter combined with super fast mode

As for ryzen, all ryzen CPUS supports it. Mainboards, some do and some do not those that do may boot, but no ECC bits correction or they provide zero information about how to configure it but ecc toys are there, on some boards they will work as far as i know most asrock and some asus boards have official ecc support msi will boot, but no ecc function.

I think see what you’re saying: Whether it be an error created in by CPU or even an error from stray electrical reactance induced noise in pc board traces, most of the better video editing software will sense and note its presence in an offset compensating file. Presumably, therefore, even if AMD CPUs and Asus and Asrock boards do support ECC memory because any produced project file done in editing suites like this https://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdirector-video-editing-software/features_en_US.html?r=1 will generate those check sum files to null out errors, there’s essentially no advantage for having ECC memory in such applications.

 

[SamirD]

Yes, what I would have expected. If only digital A/V had arrived earlier then maybe record labels would have originally skipped over 16 bit CDs in favor of 24 bit DVDs. Speaking of which, do virtually all of the better audiophile DACs in the $5000 range employ some kind of interpolation or even extrapolation schemes to predict the values of missing data in a 16 bit recording that might have been extant if the recording were a 24 bit recording? If yes, you would know which make and/or model DACs are especially good at doing this?

There is really no need for 24-bit resolution for consumers, hence why record labels never release the higher resolution masters. And the audiophiles with their dacs and uber-bassy headphones have no clue about sound. I would be very surprised if even a professional in a studio environment with studio headphones/monitors could notice a single bit error. As far as extrapolating to 24-bit, that is a akin to 1080p upscaling to 4k--you can do it, but you're altering the original in a way the author never intended, coloring it with interpretation. Again though, I would truly be astonished to find anyone on the planet that can discern bit differences between 16-bit and 24-bit.

 

[SamirD]

I think see what you’re saying: Whether it be an error created in by CPU or even an error from stray electrical reactance induced noise in pc board traces, most of the better video editing software will sense and note its presence in an offset compensating file. Presumably, therefore, even if AMD CPUs and Asus and Asrock boards do support ECC memory because any produced project file done in editing suites like this https://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdirector-video-editing-software/features_en_US.html?r=1 will generate those check sum files to null out errors, there’s essentially no advantage for having ECC memory in such applications.

I would be very shocked if any software goes to this extent to create checksum files--in fact, I would be shocked if the code addresses ecc errors at all as you expect a function to work when writing code.

 

[kerberos_20]

for playing purposes 24bit is indeed nonsense, but for mastering 24bit helps with processing accuracy

 

[kerberos_20]

I would be very shocked if any software goes to this extent to create checksum files--in fact, I would be shocked if the code addresses ecc errors at all as you expect a function to work when writing code.

ever heard of flac file format? its kinda popular these days, many players supports it and each frame contains a 16-bit crc of the frame data for detecting transmission errors, integrity of the audio data is further insured by storing an md5 signature of the original unencoded audio data in the file header, which can be compared against later during decoding or testing.

 

[soundtrek]

Ever heard of flac file format? its kinda popular these days, many players supports it and each frame contains a 16-bit crc of the frame data for detecting transmission errors, integrity of the audio data is further insured by storing an md5 signature of the original unencoded audio data in the file header, which can be compared against later during decoding or testing.

Hmmmmmmm…….does an uncompressed WAV file format have this kind of error detection? And if not would saving ripped CD tracks to a flac result in any better sound quality?

If so, does the flac file and/or its “container” (?) have to be manually configured to enable this error detection/correction? Any other reasons why a flac file would be better than an uncompressed WAV file for storing ripped CD tracks? No reason to think so according to this source.
https://www.whathifi.com/us/advice/mp3-aac-wav-flac-all-the-audio-file-formats-explained Presumably, Flac might be a more useful storage medium for higher res video as errors in those much larger files might be more visually detectable.

 

[SamirD]

ever heard of flac file format? its kinda popular these days, many players supports it and each frame contains a 16-bit crc of the frame data for detecting transmission errors, integrity of the audio data is further insured by storing an md5 signature of the original unencoded audio data in the file header, which can be compared against later during decoding or testing.

Most of the compression algorithms will have this since they are discarding parts of the original data and need it to reconstruct what it can. Zip/targz/arj/arc/etc files also have crc.

 

[SamirD]

Hmmmmmmm…….does an uncompressed WAV file format have this kind of error detection? And if not would saving ripped CD tracks to a flac result in any better sound quality?

If so, does the flac file and/or its “container” (?) have to be manually configured to enable this error detection/correction? Any other reasons why a flac file would be better than an uncompressed WAV file for storing ripped CD tracks? No reason to think so according to this source.
https://www.whathifi.com/us/advice/mp3-aac-wav-flac-all-the-audio-file-formats-explained Presumably, Flac might be a more useful storage medium for higher res video as errors in those much larger files might be more visually detectable.

So I know for a fact that wav does not have error correction. In fact, an easy test you can use is to rip a cd track twice and then do a binary compare on them. I don't know about modern hardware, but back in the day only Plextor cd drives could consistently get every single bit and on other drive you would have what are essentially bit errors. However, listening to both tracks, you would never notice it unless there were hundreds of errors. There was a program called 'exact audio copy' that was made as a workaround for this issue that would re-read each sector until it got a good copy and then move to the next sector.

No, flac would not be better. If you want crc, just zip the wav--that's what I've done and I have wav files going back to the 1990s.

 

[soundtrek]

So I know for a fact that wav does not have error correction. In fact, an easy test you can use is to rip a cd track twice and then do a binary compare on them. I don't know about modern hardware, but back in the day only Plextor cd drives could consistently get every single bit and on other drive you would have what are essentially bit errors. However, listening to both tracks, you would never notice it unless there were hundreds of errors. There was a program called 'exact audio copy' that was made as a workaround for this issue that would re-read each sector until it got a good copy and then move to the next sector.

No, flac would not be better. If you want crc, just zip the wav--that's what I've done and I have wav files going back to the 1990s.

I always use EAC to rip my CD track to uncompressed WAV files. https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ Will using EAC give me reliable error correction-even if I'm currently using an old version of it, circa 2011?

 

[SamirD]

I always use EAC to rip my CD track to uncompressed WAV files. https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ Will using EAC give me reliable error correction-even if I'm currently using an old version of it, circa 2011?

EAC will extract the exact audio off the drive--every single bit. But once it's in a wav file, that file could have a bit flip and you wouldn't know it. If you want a crc on the wav file, you can create md5 for it, or zip it, or just keep multiple copies (backups are great!) and compare them once in a while to find out if you've got a bit flipped.

 

[soundtrek]

EAC will extract the exact audio off the drive--every single bit. But once it's in a wav file, that file could have a bit flip and you wouldn't know it. If you want a crc on the wav file, you can create md5 for it, or zip it, or just keep multiple copies (backups are great!) and compare them once in a while to find out if you've got a bit flipped.

ARRRGGGHHH! Does this mean that if want to md5 it I will have to re-rip the CD track again??

 

[Daniel25@thelab]

First, Xeon systems CPU’s do support ECC memory. Second, while I can’t tell the difference in single bit errors, but not by auditory senses. I analyze all my auditory recordings through a visual display or representation of the sounds by frequency. Errors present as horizontal movements in the trace. The amount of errors in most consumer products are unbelievably frequent. These I can distinguish. That said, I’ve not yet found ANY audio system (digital or analogue; consumer or commercial) that my ears wholly acceptable in its reproduction (okay, I guess I should admit here that I’m a little OCD about music; and I’ve not found a 12-step program for that). If I ever do, I’ll let you know.

 

[soundtrek]

First, Xeon systems CPU’s do support ECC memory. Second, while I can’t tell the difference in single bit errors, but not by auditory senses. I analyze all my auditory recordings through a visual display or representation of the sounds by frequency. Errors present as horizontal movements in the trace. The amount of errors in most consumer products are unbelievably frequent.............

Yes, my next pc will most likely be a Xeon Alder Lake desktop with ECC memory supporting motherboard. Thanks those at this thread and here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/386294-ecc-vs-non-ecc-memory-2.html#post15285887 I finally have a handle what new hardware to buy and why.

But as for detecting and preventing bit errors in saved CD track rips when using non-ECC memory computers, while I learned at the Gearslutz thread that storage HDDs have substantial error correction, except perhaps only for Xeon server or comparable AMD cpu-supporting motherboards, most pcs have motherboards which do not support ECC memory.

Thus, during single CD track ripping/save-to-file and routine backup sessions, is there software or hardware (obviously designed to operate independently of anything resembling non-ECC memory), which can count the number of bit flips that may have happened while a particular CD track was being ripped and saved (to an uncompressed WAV file) or a file was being copied or moved from one internal or external storage device to another within a pc’s system?

Could it also do things like indicate which particular file the bit flip had occurred while a dozen or so files were being copies or moved to another drive?

If yes, who makes among the most accurate and easy to use solutions?

And even for Windows XP SP2?

 

[SamirD]

ARRRGGGHHH! Does this mean that if want to md5 it I will have to re-rip the CD track again??

Not necessarily. md5 reads the original file and creates a file. But here's the kicker, if the md5 has a bit flip, you don't know which is bad--the md5 or the original wav.

 

[SamirD]

Thus, during single CD track ripping/save-to-file and routine backup sessions, is there software or hardware (obviously designed to operate independently of anything resembling non-ECC memory), which can count the number of bit flips that may have happened while a particular CD track was being ripped and saved (to an uncompressed WAV file) or a file was being copied or moved from one internal or external storage device to another within a pc’s system?

Could it also do things like indicate which particular file the bit flip had occurred while a dozen or so files were being copies or moved to another drive?

If yes, who makes among the most accurate and easy to use solutions?

And even for Windows XP SP2?

Let me tell you about the old school way to do it that has worked since the DOS days. Rip the file twice, compare the two files using either FC or COMP commmands. They should be identical. If not, rip and third and compare it with the other two, whichever pair compare correctly are more than likely the exact copy since the chances for the exact same bit error to occur in the exact same place is a very, very rare occurrence indeed.

This is what I would do back in the day to make sure I have the right wav, and then I'd make sure I copy it to my backup and then compare my backups to my originals (winmerge is awesome for this as it can compare 3 files at the same time). And this isn't just for wav files, almost any file can benefit from keeping an eye on integrity.

To answer your question about file transfers--the answer is yes. This is why for literally decades now, I always end up comparing a file after I've copied it. I've only seen maybe a dozen miscompares in that time period, but catching them has always been invaluable. SAS disk systems have extra ecc and crc to prioritize data integrity, hence why they are used in data centers (they're also faster at up to 15k rpm). In fact, all the stuff used in data centers--xeons, ecc registered memory, sas drives and controllers all offer a higher level of integrity than on consumer platforms. And since a professional workstation is essentially a server in a desktop form factor, I would seriously consider getting one if you care about all the bits. And I would still practice comparisons and backups. I actually have 3 copies of all my photos and compare them yearly to find the flipped bits.

 

[soundtrek]

Not necessarily. md5 reads the original file and creates a file. But here's the kicker, if the md5 has a bit flip, you don't know which is bad--the md5 or the original wav.

Is this primarily why most here save CD rips to FLAC files, as they report errors and WAV files can't? https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=120576.msg993837#msg993837

In fact, all the stuff used in data centers--xeons, ecc registered memory, sas drives and controllers all offer a higher level of integrity than on consumer platforms. And since a professional workstation is essentially a server in a desktop form factor, I would seriously consider getting one if you care about all the bits. And I would still practice comparisons and backups. I actually have 3 copies of all my photos and compare them yearly to find the flipped bits.

Indeed, these guys have already sold me on choosing a late model four or six core Xeon processor and ECC memory supporting motherboard for my next build. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/386294-ecc-vs-non-ecc-memory-2.html#post15296720

 

[SamirD]

Is this primarily why most here save CD rips to FLAC files, as they report errors and WAV files can't? https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=120576.msg993837#msg993837

Indeed, these guys have already sold me on choosing a late model four or six core Xeon processor and ECC memory supporting motherboard for my next build. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/386294-ecc-vs-non-ecc-memory-2.html#post15296720

So I read a few threads on that first forum and while that's a neat forum (thank you for the link!), the information there is subpar at best, much of it wrong, with a little that is actually correct.

As far as FLAC, it does seem like it has some crc built-in, but the problem with any type of crc is that it is very limited in the amount it can repair in the case of multiple bit flips. In these cases, only having a perfect backup copy will do.

Those guys on the second forum know their stuff big time as I'm on there as well just to see what gear the pros are using. But they are more audio artists than computer people, so they don't know how ecc reg is much better than just regular ecc, and that a lot of HP/Dell workstations are just like their servers so full ecc reg ram, sas controllers, and the works--all in a deskside form factor.

Personally if I was in your shoes, cpu needs aside, I would make sure my platform uses ecc registered memory (eliminating almost all consumer boards) and an sas controller and drives for storage integrity. And then I would just keep a minimum of 3 'original' copies of everything and compare them yearly to find the 'one that is not like the other'. You'll probably be lucky to find a single bit flip in a year this way.

 

[Karadjgne]

'Downloading from the internet'.....

ECC isn't going to help one bit (no pun intended) for error correction there. There's 2 strikes against you from the get-go. First is reliance on the data being a perfect copy, there's nothing guaranteed that whatever you receive is going to be pure, error free. Since you cannot check the incoming data integrity (did a bit flip during transmission, was there an error from the upload or original encoding etc).

Second, the data has to make its way through the Lan to the Ram. Meaning you are relying on the integrity of everything in your pc prior to the data actually getting to/through the ram itself.

That also applies to other inputs. Cd/dvd or flash or even hdd. Reads can be imperfect, errors created by your pc before it gets to the ram.

Biggest issue with EEC isn't its relative unavailability for consumer use. It's a speed thing. Checking for and Correcting errors takes time and resources, the ram itself has to run lower speeds as a result. And ppl aren't interested in running 2133MHz in their brand new expensive Ryzens.

If serious about EEC being a requirement, you should be looking at HEDT platforms anyway, not gaming platforms. The programs used that require that kind of error free processing generally also require the resources HEDT offers that consumer grade platforms don't. Like quad channel bandwidth, 128Mb+ of ram, beyond reasonable core counts, massive computational ability and the appropriate instruction sets etc.

 

[soundtrek]

As far as FLAC, it does seem like it has some crc built-in, but the problem with any type of crc is that it is very limited in the amount it can repair in the case of multiple bit flips. In these cases, only having a perfect backup copy will do.

Personally if I was in your shoes, cpu needs aside, I would make sure my platform uses ecc registered memory (eliminating almost all consumer boards) and an sas controller and drives for storage integrity. And then I would just keep a minimum of 3 'original' copies of everything and compare them yearly to find the 'one that is not like the other'. You'll probably be lucky to find a single bit flip in a year this way.

'Downloading from the internet'.....

ECC isn't going to help one bit (no pun intended) for error correction there. There's 2 strikes against you from the get-go. First is reliance on the data being a perfect copy, there's nothing guaranteed that whatever you receive is going to be pure, error free. Since you cannot check the incoming data integrity (did a bit flip during transmission, was there an error from the upload or original encoding etc).

Second, the data has to make its way through the Lan to the Ram. Meaning you are relying on the integrity of everything in your pc prior to the data actually getting to/through the ram itself.

That also applies to other inputs. Cd/dvd or flash or even hdd. Reads can be imperfect, errors created by your pc before it gets to the ram.

Biggest issue with EEC isn't its relative unavailability for consumer use. It's a speed thing. Checking for and Correcting errors takes time and resources, the ram itself has to run lower speeds as a result. And ppl aren't interested in running 2133MHz in their brand new expensive Ryzens.

If serious about EEC being a requirement, you should be looking at HEDT platforms anyway, not gaming platforms. The programs used that require that kind of error free processing generally also require the resources HEDT offers that consumer grade platforms don't. Like quad channel bandwidth, 128Mb+ of ram, beyond reasonable core counts, massive computational ability and the appropriate instruction sets etc.

Thanks SamirD and Karadjgne for these very sobering and informative replies.

Checking my text on this thread I apparently forgot to mention that I’ve never been into any kind of gaming. And this new desktop build will be strictly for audio restoration https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/using-the-de-clip-plug-in-to-fix-clipped-vocals.html and, occasionally, 1080p BD movie ripping and editing. https://www.cyberlink.com/products/video-photo-editor-combo/comparison_en_US.html?r=1

I may be wrong but though you point out that file corruption can happen even before downloaded data-usually a Youtube video, in my case-enters the pc, can’t one compare the checksums of the original file (from youtube.com) to the downloaded file. And if they don’t match download the file again and compare? I’ve never used checksum testing utilities before but they seem user friendly enough even for me. https://www.online-tech-tips.com/cool-websites/what-is-checksum/
https://www.howtogeek.com/363735/what-is-a-checksum-and-why-should-you-care/

Again, checksum testing is all new to me. But are the above recommended testers (free or not) very easy to use for error checking of Youtubes immediately after downloading them?

Which checksum testers would you recommend for newbies/dummies?

Regarding FLAC (as opposed to uncompressed WAV which I’ve always used for saving CD track rips), while it can’t UNcorrrupt a file my understanding from those at hydrogenaudio is that when the FLAC is saved two checksum are created; one checksum within the file and the other (saved somewhere in Windows??) when the file is saved to the hard drive. And if you have the right kind of HDD storage and/or backup system, as Yourlord does here https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=109024.0 (e.g. ZFS using mirrored VDEVs), it can detect any difference between the FLAC’s own checksum and the one the HDD creates while saving the file. Then (hopefully?) the difference would appear as an on-screen pop-up denoting the error. If yes, then you simply re-rip the CD track and re-save the file, which, most likely, should be error free.

As for ECC, from what I’ve read here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/386294-ecc-vs-non-ecc-memory.html if not elsewhere, ECC RAM is only ~ 3% slower than non-ECC, if that much. And with a six core Rocket Lake cpu but even without an especially muscular video card, how much and how fast ECC RAM would I need to render and edit a 1080p image? And I will never be doing anything in 4K.

You also questioned availability of same, but uOpt here shows ECC supportive motherboards selling here. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/386294-ecc-vs-non-ecc-memory-2.html

Please correct any oversights, but I would think that my only other concern would be keeping the build as green, cool and as quiet as possible; cpu/gpu/ram radiators, large diameter/low rpm fans to minimize noise, steel rather than aluminum ATX (hopefully mini ATX) cases, et al. https://www.microcenter.com/site/content/custom-pc-builder.aspx

HEDT platforms are also news to me. But would such motherboards be necessary for exploiting the error reducing power of ECC RAM, as I do no gaming, no 4K and only occasionally 1080p BD movie disc ripping for simple frame or scene deleting?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-d...n Intel HEDT and an Intel Mainstream desktop?

However unlikely, if a HEDT build would somehow cost barely any more for my needs while making the system run cooler and quieter…….?

But before any new desktop build happens, Porcos and others here have convinced me of the urgent need to revamp my redundant backup system to something like zfs and btrfs, which according to Chronosphere, can actually repair damaged saves of FLACs. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?PHPSESSID=7b5egpokpkeennhlb6et8mnim0&topic=111995.75

Would you happen to know if Qnap or brands can build me a two HDD backup system employing zfs and/or btrfs configurations? https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/

Would this provide more protection against errors than SAS hard drives/controllers?

If yes, and if affordable, I’d surely have one each on-site and off-site.

 

[Karadjgne]

There's 2 ways to render. Cpu or gpu. Gpu is almost always better. It's a matter of cores. A hefty cpu has 10 core/20 threads, even a mediocre gpu has thousands of cores.

If I was to go with Qnap, I'd not be looking at a 2HDD Nas, but a 4 HDD Nas in Raid 10. I'd also use an external drive big enough to backup the entire Nas. Backup to Nas daily, backup Nas to external weekly. Since the external is invisible to the pc, only sees the Nas, likelihood of virus, malware, malicious software etc is as close to Zero as it gets.

Having 4 HDD in mirror/strip in a hotswap means if any hdd develops issues, yank it out, replace it, rebuild it. Using 2x hdd, you are limited to mirror, so a dual 1Tb setup = 1Tb. Used in striping, you'd get the full 2Tb, but each disc only has half the info, so if a disc goes down, you loose everything.

The TS-h686 QuTS hero edition uses 4 hotswap bays and ZFS. (in your link). Hdd, ssd, nvme compatible.

 

[soundtrek]

If I was to go with Qnap,...........

I'd also use an external drive big enough to backup the entire Nas. Backup to Nas daily, backup Nas to external weekly. Since the external is invisible to the pc, only sees the Nas, likelihood of virus, malware, malicious software etc is as close to Zero as it gets.

Having 4 HDD in mirror/strip in a hotswap means if any hdd develops issues, yank it out, replace it, rebuild it. Using 2x hdd, you are limited to mirror, so a dual 1Tb setup = 1Tb. Used in striping, you'd get the full 2Tb, but each disc only has half the info, so if a disc goes down, you loose everything.

The TS-h686 QuTS hero edition uses 4 hotswap bays and ZFS. (in your link). Hdd, ssd, nvme compatible.

Thanks for the excellent feedback on building a backup system.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#Overview describes ZFS error detection, prevention and
R/W error correction features. And this is loaded with user experiences showing ZFS is the way to go. https://serverfault.com/questions/1...re-self-healing-filesystems-for-general-usage Josh and others there say that ZFS does need ECC memory to detect, prevent and even correct errors, but that Qnap model supports it. https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/ts-h686

But what I don’t get is:

1.) As this is a backup and not an enterprise speed system, why suggest configuring it with any kind of “RAID-Z” striping, as I have no need for speed over fault tolerance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#Dynamic_striping

So then just configure it as RAID 1?

2.) You say to backup to the Qnap NAS system daily and backup it to the external NAS weekly.
But there’s no reason to be doing this on days that I haven’t edited/overwritten any of my files, of course?

3.) As for which four new HDDs for building the ZFS RAID 1 array, perhaps they should be NAS drives. https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/668794/best-nas-hard-drives-seagate-vs-western-digital/

But unless otherwise best for the ZFS system, why not use 5400 rather than 7200rpm drives?
Again, as striping seems inappropriate for this backup system-and needlessly puts data at risk
-I don’t see any need for the noise and heat from four 7200rpm drives. Most here seem to agree. https://community.synology.com/enu/forum/1/post/126108
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/g3x5gl/5400_vs_7200_rpm_for_nas/


Your thoughts on 5400rpm NAS drives for this non-striping ZFS backup system?

4.) Though I’ve learned much over the last 12 hours, I’ve no actually experience building RAIDed arrays. A big concern is can this ZFS backup system be configured to automatically detect-and hopefully repair bit errors however they may occur even if/when one of the drives fails?

Does the ZFS do this by default once it’s basically set up or what has to be done to enable this?

5.) Any error correcting or other reasons for maximizing ECC RAM? 8, 16, 32 GB?
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/ts-h686

6.) Any drawbacks with Qnap or reasons to suggest another brand/mode for a ZFS backup system?