Intel Disses Android's Dual-core Support

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The interesting thing that I think we are seeing with phone tech and the OS tech of win8/wp8/android/iOS is that there is a much more delicate balance between hardware and software than what we saw during the development of the PC. PC development started out as an extensions race of who had the best instruction sets. That later evolved into a mhz race, and then a core count race, and is now a watt/ips race. Each new dialectic showed us that there are different ways of gaining speed and efficiency from a device, and now we know all of this in the mobile phone era and we see lots of different companies taking very different approaches. Intel is championing the instruction set circuit (x86 has several more instruction options than ARM, which is why it can do more work per clock), nVidia is taking the multicore route of having 5 cores, others are taking a GPU offload approach, while others are focusing solely on wattage (even at the expense of performance).
Then on the software side we see Android trying to fill the traditional swiss army knife 'do anything' OS which can almost do anything, but no single thing extremely quickly. Apple has the 'wait and do' attitude of pausing everything to get the most responsive end user performance. MS took the 'throw the baby out with the bath water' approach of stripping out everything possible to have the lightest weight OS, and then slowly fill features back in.

Anywho, all these different platforms, all these different approaches, but during the desktop wars we saw only 2 companies with 2 platforms battle it out using the same general approach at the same time. Now during the cell phone wars it is much more difficult to make direct comparisons, or see what is most effective, because each processor, and each OS is simply so very different from each-other. The more interesting thing to me is that with the desktop space we saw a doubling of performance every ~2 years. In the cell phone world we are seeing nearly 2x performance gains every single year, and sometimes more than that. It is pretty neat to watch, but it really makes articles like this difficult to parse because it is hard to tell what is being referred to in each and every benchmark or situation.
 
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Although there is truth to the fact that Linux doesn't care too much about non-kernel level priorities WITH THE NON REALTIME KERNEL (either preempt, or preempt_rt). However, you can alleviate this to some extent by using non-fair schedulers, affinity (which Linux has had for many years), and process namespacing (which is what Android uses, though the particular namespacing kernel tech is called Control Groups).
The main advantage that more than single core offers is the ability to run the garbage collector on a different core from wherever the system ui is running.
 

tomfreak

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[citation][nom]saturnus[/nom]So what Intel is basically saying is that multi-core ARM chips should beat Medfield down even more than they already do but are let down by Androids scheduler.[/citation]It is true in some sense for Android. But u have forgot that, Medfield is a x86 CHIP. On a window+ x86 platform any chip slower than Pentium 4 3-3.8GHz is not gonna make any sense as most old software written for windows+x86 platform are single thread. (and we cant ignore this as it is a HUGE library here)

I'll be more than happy to run a 1.5GHz x86 chip phone than a 1GHz dual core phone when I am in windwos +x86 platform. halflife 1 is not multithreaded.
 

darkavenger123

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I dunno....all i can say is my Galaxy S2(i9100g) runs much smoothly than my sister's S1. Both using the same GPU (Power VR 540) except my i9100g has more RAM maybe.
Galaxy S2=dual core, Galaxy S1=single core.

So what do you say to that, Intel???
 

alextheblue

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[citation][nom]zingam_duo[/nom]Any good program would have at least two threads or you are going to have a sad panda.[/citation]What about a task that isn't well suited to parallel crunching? How do you proprose said "good program" should magically parallelize said task? Sometimes there isn't a way to really take advantage of multiple cores. That doesn't even take into account diminishing returns as you add more cores/threads, and increased complexity of development.

On a PC things are a bit different. Even more than 4 cores/threads is useful to a lot of people, as you'll see a lot more heavy multitasking than you will on a phone. You've also got tons of screen real estate, you can have multiple monitors, power budget is far greater, etc.
 
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Its somewhat open source, why doesn't intel just improve the code and hand it over to google?
 

ojas

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[citation][nom]fasasf[/nom]Its somewhat open source, why doesn't intel just improve the code and hand it over to google?[/citation]
Apparently they do have their own version of ICS running on Medfield...I'm not sure they're ready to release it though...
 

synth0

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Intriguing article at first, but then you read the last paragraph and everything is clear, quote "Unfortunately Bell didn't mention which multi-core chips tested poorly when compared to Intel's single core".

Of course Intel will diss dual/quad core CPUs to promote their single core product.
 

archange

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Well, Intel is really pissed at people going along with the dual, quad and generally multi core hype, given that they only offer a single core product. Why was it single core in the first place? Because Android's multi tasking scheduler sucks? I think not. I think power.

That is going to radically change when Intel's own dual core phone hits and I suspect it will blow past pretty much everything else, if current single core performance is any indication.

I'm pretty sure that Android needs to optimize thread handling. And I think they know it as well. That doesn't mean dual cores don't help right now, if they can be packaged into a power envelope that makes sense. For skeptical people: try doing ROM installs, backups or restores, as a comparison between single and dual core Android phones. Or multiple updates from market. Or application restores on a freshly installed ROM, from Titanium Backup - for instance. I do these things pretty often and believe me, it's a LOT LESS PAIN on a dual core.
 

rantoc

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[citation][nom]darkavenger123[/nom]I dunno....all i can say is my Galaxy S2(i9100g) runs much smoothly than my sister's S1. Both using the same GPU (Power VR 540) except my i9100g has more RAM maybe.Galaxy S2=dual core, Galaxy S1=single core.So what do you say to that, Intel???[/citation]

Intel don't have to answer that, if you knew the hardware spec's! The S1 (A8) run at 1ghz while S2 (A9) have 1.2 ghz clock so each core in the S2 have faster execution than the S1, wherever you see the benefits from the faster per core clock or if its dual core is another question!
 

alphaalphaalpha1

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[citation][nom]Dangi[/nom]This time Intel is right, even now, when you use your computer with 4 cores there are a few programs that benefits from it, most programs run single core.So yeah if you don't have multithreat applications is a waste of money to put so much effort in building multicore CPU's, improving architecture an a few Mhz more should do the trick and bring more performance than dualcore or quadcore CPU's in a mobile enviroment.[/citation]

Crome, IE, WinRAR, and more. A lot of common programs can make use of more than one thread and the number is constantly growing. For example, Mozilla is working on making FF multi-threaded.
 

Dangi

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[citation][nom]alphaalphaalpha1[/nom]Crome, IE, WinRAR, and more. A lot of common programs can make use of more than one thread and the number is constantly growing. For example, Mozilla is working on making FF multi-threaded.[/citation]

As I said before, multithread is not the same as multicore.

Do you know what it means to a program that can multithread ??
It means the program can cotinue working without stoping when it doesn't get any input (for example)

And again, look at your core load status, most programs doesn't manage more thant 2 cores, even now there are lots of programs than are multithreaded but doesn't have multicore support.



Fount this chart on the forums
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/302558-10-real-difference-2100-2300

Look closely their perfomance, i3 2100 is dual core and i5 2300 is quad core, while 2100 scores 135.3% ( comparing to AMD 455 ) 2300 gets 146%, 2 more cores and 11% better ?? Do you think the 2 extra cores bring significative output ??

If the programs we use everyday supported multicore AMD should be the one ahead with it's 8 core, but we know this isn't what's happening
 

zak_mckraken

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[citation][nom]jkflipflop98[/nom]That's never going to happen. Ever.[/citation]
And we'll never need more than 64K of RAM. Ever.

Statements like this makes me wonder why a lot of "technology enthusiasts" are so closed-minded.
 

pepe2907

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And what exactly have they tested? Android 1 or 2?
I am sure they weren't all that great in multithread sheduling, but men, they weren't supposed to run on multicore CPUs, which hadn't been all that abundant then.
 

A Bad Day

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[citation][nom]eddieroolz[/nom]While I'm sure there's some self-promotion interests involved, Intel is probably right on this one. Dual-core/Quad-core is great for benchmarks and bragging rights, but what can dual-core devices do that single-core can't? So far, I haven't received a good answer from any Android users I know.[/citation]

And let's not forget that a lot of software don't support dual cores.
 

jerm1027

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In all honesty, I never bought into the hype of multi-core ARM CPU's in mobile computing. I like the concept of the companion core in Tegra's platform though. Ideally, I would like a companion core combined with an efficient single core CPU (so a 1+1 config) and programs written to take advantage of other resources instead of always taxing the CPU unnecessarily **cough, cough*FLASH*cough*. I'm pretty content with my S1 in the Evo, but I'm pretty stoked about Krait. Even without the companion-core, I get phenomenal battery (especially compared to my Hero) thanks to NEON. Mobile computing is a marathon, not a sprint. I want it portable, on-the-go, and efficient. I don't need higher power requirements, requiring bulkier batteries from higher clock-speeds and unnecessary, under-utilized CPU cores; that means less portability and more time plugged in a wall. I have a 4.2GHz 2500k paired with a 5830. If I need serious computing, I'll do it there.
 

tj_the_first

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There are always tons of things going on in a modern OS. As you type there's a spell checker running, there's graphics being updated, there's basic I/O, meanwhile you've got multiple push notification sessions running, the wireless software is active, bluetooth is watching for devices, and myriad other tasks all requiring CPU timeslices. Add a multitab browser, voice recognition, and other heavy tasks and suddenly you'll be glad you've got that 2nd or even 4th core. Look at the Tegra 3 advantage over Tegra 2 and you'll see that cores matter - prioritisation issues or not.
 

Kroneage

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Seriously..... since when has any story sourced from Inquirer (Tabloid Style Reporting) been considered even close the whole truth? You have a regurgitated claim by Mike Bell (Mechanical Engineering Only GM) that was true in 2011, but isn't today on any multi-core chip designs by any company including Apple w/ A5 Dual Cores, Qualcomm w/ Krait, Samsung w/ Exynos, etc. While Intel is still stuck using a watered down single core legacy Pentium design in their MedField Atom mobile chis!!!

Now that's hilarious! ...I mean even if Mike Bell (who doesn't have any Electronics Engineering knowledge) made that ridiculous claim more recently than 2011, when Android updated their Threading Engine to Multicores, it's obviously made out of frustration because the biggest chip maker hasn't been able to penetrate the Mobile Market with it's still antiquated Atom low power single core chips!!!
 

Kroneage

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After some digging, I realized I somehow read this before. Like around the time the first time Android OS was put on a dual core device and it was true. But then Google haggled their way back into GNU Linux fold. So they were able to utilize CFS (Completely Fair Scheduler), that's also being used by IBM (Linux) for it's Super Computers running 1000's of processors. You can't do that without a good "Thread Schedular", but you really can't do that until the Scheduler has been optimized for the particular needs of the chip and device the OS (Android) is installed on.

In early 2011 some Dual core Android devices were either using an older version of the kernel (in Froyo) or had not moved to optimize the CFS (scheduler) for the chip. But CFS not easy to understand and optimize it. So about 4 years ago Con Kolivas (reknown kernel programmer) wrote BFS (Brain F**k Scheduler):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Fuck_Scheduler

This is the task scheduler some phone makers and Android forks are now using (like Cynogenmod) since it so much simpler to optimize. But within the Linux (which includes current kernels in Android) the only Task Scheduler included is 0(1) CFS. As stated above this is what runs on some of the most powerful Super Computers in the World and Linux (which Android runs on) operates on over 90% of those!

So if... this interview by Inquirer is even current, it would prove Mike Bell is a brainless lost in outer space anti-competitive FUD troll!
Here's a break down PDF of CFS to prove my point:
http://www.ijcst.org/Volume2/Issue7/p3_2_7.pdf

Now don't forget, Intel is now also involved writing Tizen. Which is also based on Linux w/ CFS Scheduler! ......sounding a little more like Mike's pumping FUD by the minute! ^_*
 
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