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News Intel Graphics Just Tweeted an Image of a Massive, Mysterious Chip

Deicidium369

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It is NOT Xe HPC - which will debut on Intel 7nm process. Most likely it is a Xe HP for the discrete graphics card they have said will be released shortly.

Xe LP Low Power Integrated Graphics - 1st Gen in Tiger Lake (Gen12)
Xe HP High Power for discrete graphics cards
XE HPC High Perf Compute - for Ponte Vecchio - Will be on Intel 7nm.

You know, you all should read the articles on Tom's Hardware - none of this info is hard to find. - or you are admitting that Intel's EUV 7nm is actually producing Ponte Vecchio silicon way early

Why are you all immediately jumping to the conclusion this is Xe HPC? Why was the Wafer assumed to be Xe HPC and not the most likely Xe HP? Xe HPC will be 7nm and released for the Exascale along with Saphire Rapids Xeons and most likely requires PCIe5.
 
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crysis2

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It is NOT Xe HPC - which will debut on Intel 7nm process. Most likely it is a Xe HP for the discrete graphics card they have said will be released shortly.

Xe LP Low Power Integrated Graphics - 1st Gen in Tiger Lake (Gen12)
Xe HP High Power for discrete graphics cards
XE HPC High Perf Compute - for Ponte Vecchio - Will be on Intel 7nm.

You know, you all should read the articles on Tom's Hardware - none of this info is hard to find. - or you are admitting that Intel's EUV 7nm is actually producing Ponte Vecchio silicon way early

Why are you all immediately jumping to the conclusion this is Xe HPC? Why was the Wafer assumed to be Xe HPC and not the most likely Xe HP? Xe HPC will be 7nm and released for the Exascale along with Saphire Rapids Xeons and most likely requires PCIe5.
Well for an Xe HP this one is really an over kill
It is like using NVIDIA fully unlocked top tire GPU die (even bigger than Quadro 8000) just for let say a 2080Ti which is not really logically fuse able.
Hope you understand what i mean cause i am not a native English-speaking person.
 

JarredWaltonGPU

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It is NOT Xe HPC - which will debut on Intel 7nm process. Most likely it is a Xe HP for the discrete graphics card they have said will be released shortly.

Xe LP Low Power Integrated Graphics - 1st Gen in Tiger Lake (Gen12)
Xe HP High Power for discrete graphics cards
XE HPC High Perf Compute - for Ponte Vecchio - Will be on Intel 7nm.

You know, you all should read the articles on Tom's Hardware - none of this info is hard to find. - or you are admitting that Intel's EUV 7nm is actually producing Ponte Vecchio silicon way early

Why are you all immediately jumping to the conclusion this is Xe HPC? Why was the Wafer assumed to be Xe HPC and not the most likely Xe HP? Xe HPC will be 7nm and released for the Exascale along with Saphire Rapids Xeons and most likely requires PCIe5.
Why are you assuming that Xe HPC will only be 7nm? My assumption based on current information is that round one of Xe Graphics will have LP, HP, and HPC -- all on 10nm. Round two will also have LP, HP, and HPC variants -- with the most powerful being Ponte Vicchio. That may be incorrect, but Intel has not publicly stated anywhere I've read that Xe HPC is 7nm Ponte Vicchio only.

One possibility is that potentially Xe HP and Xe HPC are actually going to be the same chip, but HPC will use multiple chips and EMIB while HP will be a single chip. However, that wouldn't make much sense if HP is going into consumer parts, since it would have unnecessary FP64 features. Sure, it could be Intel's equivalent of Titan V I guess, but if so it's going to flop hard in the enthusiast sector.

Basically, the massive package in this shot looks to have four chips under the IHS, and probably four HBM chips as well (could be HBM2 or HBM2e -- we don't know yet). That alone is enough to make the product cost a massive amount of money to produce, which means it won't be for the consumer market. Especially not from Intel.

HEDT chips are a fraction of this size and complexity, and Intel still charges $600+ for such CPUs. Based on the wafer picture, the die looks like it will be massive -- and Raja has hinted as much as well. It's not a great wafer shot, however, so tough to say. The HCC Skylake-X chips (12-18 core) are about 21.2 x 22.1 mm, or 468.5mm2 ($600+), and the XCC chips (up to 28-core) are about 21.7 x 31.7 mm, or 687.9mm2 and go into chips that Intel sells for $2000+.

[Those are both my estimates based on images and other data on the internet. Official numbers are probably within 1-2%, but Intel hasn't disclosed those.]

So, if a single Xe HPC (or Xe HP possibly, depending on what Intel does) chip is larger than the XCC die, it is going to be extremely expensive. Four of them? $15,000-$25,000 each for exascale supercomputers isn't out of the realm of possibility. And if the chips are really Xe HP and measure close to 800mm square, the cheapest graphics cards with the chips are still going to be in the $1000+ range for sure.
 

JarredWaltonGPU

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Any possibility for this to be an APU?
Why would it be socketable,just for R&D maybe?
I think it's socketable because Intel wants to have potentially dual-socket add-in boards, maybe even four-socket. Perhaps there's also plans to put it directly on motherboards. For the consumer market, though, I can't think of a good reason to make a socketed GPU like this.

As far as APU, I mean, it could be done. I'm 99.9% sure that this is just a pure graphics solution, though. Intel needs to prove it can do a compute focused card that will enable an exascale supercomputer. That's what this will be. The socket is sort of like the mezzanine connector approach used on the GV100 supercomputers IMO.
 

Deicidium369

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Well for an Xe HP this one is really an over kill
It is like using NVIDIA fully unlocked top tire GPU die (even bigger than Quadro 8000) just for let say a 2080Ti which is not really logically fuse able.
Hope you understand what i mean cause i am not a native English-speaking person.
Your English is fine.

It is well known that there will be a 10nm+ graphics card released by Intel this year for sure.
It is not Xe LP - that is in Tiger Lake
It is not Xe HPC - that is 18 months out - and will be on Intel EUV 7nm along with Sapphire Rapids (EUV 7nm Xeon, PCIe5 and DDR5).

OneAPI works will all the variations of Xe along with Agilex (10nm FPGA PCIe5) and what was thir AI play in Nervana, which is being replaced with Habana.

So the most likely scenario is it's Xe HP - and probably not the low end, low core count variant. This is most likely one of the higher end variants to compete with 2080 at least - so maybe the 8192 core mentioned before or maybe the 16,384.. The number is not known - we know it's big - which lends credence to the possible 16K cores.... but we can't see silicon to be able to determine what it exactly is.

This would be overkill for LP - which is 96 cores in Tiger Lake - for HP it would not be overkill - Intel has no intention of this being another lackluster i740. With Ampere coming out this year, and I am sure AMD will release something underwhelming, so not overkill at all - actually right in the heart of what HP is designed for.

XE HPC is a whole other beast - it is not just a simple variant on LP or HP like HP is. Those 6 GPUs are for all intents and purposes 1 unit - and built on 7nm not 10nm.
 
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Deicidium369

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I think it's socketable because Intel wants to have potentially dual-socket add-in boards, maybe even four-socket. Perhaps there's also plans to put it directly on motherboards. For the consumer market, though, I can't think of a good reason to make a socketed GPU like this.

As far as APU, I mean, it could be done. I'm 99.9% sure that this is just a pure graphics solution, though. Intel needs to prove it can do a compute focused card that will enable an exascale supercomputer. That's what this will be. The socket is sort of like the mezzanine connector approach used on the GV100 supercomputers IMO.
This is probably an Engineering Sample - so packaging it as it is makes it easy to test changes/ etc. Packaging is irrelevant at this stage. I am not sure I agree with the idea of a dual or quad socket Xe HP - but is most definitely possible. I do not agree with it being placed directly on mother boards - that is the idea of Xe HPC - not sure if it will be sockets or more like the Nvidia V100 SXM3 form factor - same as Habana uses for the Cray Blades for the Exascale computer (I think you referred to this as the mezzanine connector, which is correct - also used on several Inspur systems and the DGX).

Ice Lake and Tiger Lake are already APUs - Gen11 in Ice Lake is already competition for the Vega cores, and with a doubling in perf per core, and increasing the core count by 50% it will more than be a match for the 4000 and positioned well for the eventual 5000 APU.

And I do 100% agree this is a pure GPU play. But whether this is the 2080 variant or the Tesla variant - we don't know if it's a compute only or if it's both. I would imagine that to keep the # of SKUs down - it will have dual use - maybe 64-128GB HBM2e on the compute card and only 16GB on the graphics card.

I think we all agree on the broader points... I for one can't wait to see the specs - I am 100% Nvidia, as soon as 4rd party Ampere cards are released, I will buy - same as I pre ordered Vega VII and had one of the first few 3rd party 5700XTs - but most likely a high end variant of Xe will end up in one of my systems.
 

Deicidium369

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Why are you assuming that Xe HPC will only be 7nm? My assumption based on current information is that round one of Xe Graphics will have LP, HP, and HPC -- all on 10nm. Round two will also have LP, HP, and HPC variants -- with the most powerful being Ponte Vicchio. That may be incorrect, but Intel has not publicly stated anywhere I've read that Xe HPC is 7nm Ponte Vicchio only.

One possibility is that potentially Xe HP and Xe HPC are actually going to be the same chip, but HPC will use multiple chips and EMIB while HP will be a single chip. However, that wouldn't make much sense if HP is going into consumer parts, since it would have unnecessary FP64 features. Sure, it could be Intel's equivalent of Titan V I guess, but if so it's going to flop hard in the enthusiast sector.

Basically, the massive package in this shot looks to have four chips under the IHS, and probably four HBM chips as well (could be HBM2 or HBM2e -- we don't know yet). That alone is enough to make the product cost a massive amount of money to produce, which means it won't be for the consumer market. Especially not from Intel.

HEDT chips are a fraction of this size and complexity, and Intel still charges $600+ for such CPUs. Based on the wafer picture, the die looks like it will be massive -- and Raja has hinted as much as well. It's not a great wafer shot, however, so tough to say. The HCC Skylake-X chips (12-18 core) are about 21.2 x 22.1 mm, or 468.5mm2 ($600+), and the XCC chips (up to 28-core) are about 21.7 x 31.7 mm, or 687.9mm2 and go into chips that Intel sells for $2000+.

[Those are both my estimates based on images and other data on the internet. Official numbers are probably within 1-2%, but Intel hasn't disclosed those.]

So, if a single Xe HPC (or Xe HP possibly, depending on what Intel does) chip is larger than the XCC die, it is going to be extremely expensive. Four of them? $15,000-$25,000 each for exascale supercomputers isn't out of the realm of possibility. And if the chips are really Xe HP and measure close to 800mm square, the cheapest graphics cards with the chips are still going to be in the $1000+ range for sure.
Xe HPC is quite a different animal than the Xe LP and Xe HP. This will be released on EUV 7nm specifically for the Cray machine - initially. I would be willing to bet that the engineering is not even done on the Xe HPC. There was the idea of a consumer GPU based on Gen11/Gen12 (then renamed Xe LP and further split into LP integrated and HP discrete) with the high end variant (more of a purpose built GPU) coming later - which became Xe HPC.

I think there is some confusion about HP - we all know LP will almost 100% be an IGP - but HP would fill the roles from Late Turing/Early Ampere is both the Video card and compute card markets - it is modular - more slices can be added for higher end compute cards (Tesla)with 64-128GB HBM2e or HBM3 (RTX8000 is 48/96GB) and the Video card would be less slices and less memory 16GB HBM2e)... That modularity is the key here - same broad product Xe HP - but wildly varying capabilities. I think the high end HP is being conflated with the Xe HPC.

At any rate - going to be interesting.

When Xe HPC comes we will see a radical transformation - PCIe5 will enable CXL and GenZ (intra and inter rack) with pools of memory (normal volatile and non volatile RAM), pools of accelerators (FPGA, GPU, AI) etc. This will be a fundamental shift in computing - and is one of the main reason Intel talks about TAM and not just CPUs.
 

InvalidError

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First, is it socketed? I don't exactly know what BGA chips look like that aren't soldered down. It definitely looks similar to a LGA, but I'm not sure it is. I'll bet @InvalidError knows.
Simple obvious reason this chip must live in a socket: you cannot BGA a chip that has capacitors under it. If this chip was meant to be soldered on board, Intel would design it with all capacitors on top so manufacturers don't have to route a hole into the PCB.

Another reason to put it in a socket would be CCIX: use the same socket for CPUs, GPGPUs, FPGAs and whatever other forms of semi/full-custom ASICs clients may want to toss in there so SIs can mix-and-match components for their specific application. For exa-scale computing, I imagine saving a whole routing hop by integrating Infiniband-like functionality into a CCIX node instead of going through PCIe slots would do wonders for latency. (Still got a physical PCIe slot with its electrical limitations, but the card itself would be little more than a dumb media converter between the external IB network and CCIX chip it is attached to.)
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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If we're taking educated shots in the dark.

I'd guess that it's Xe HP designed to target the Halo crown of Nvidia with the 2080 Ti, the reason that it's Socketed is for multiple reasons.

There will be multiple Sockets on the Board to help scale the GPU compute side like built in SLI/CrossFire on one board.

There will be some sort of unifying composite chip on the PCB right before the rasterization output stage that will composite the data of multiple chips and combine them into a single image.

Tile Based Deferred Rendering will be the norm and split the Computing of the Tiled image into many blocks.

This will allow one PCB to have multiple GPU Chip Upgrade cycles where the end user can literally swap out GPU Tiles every cycle as they improve. Allowing you to keep the base PCB.
 
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InvalidError

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There will be multiple Sockets on the Board to help scale the GPU with HBM memory being placed around the board on the opposite side of the PCB.
You cannot put HBM elsewhere on the PCB, it is designed specifically to be placed on the same substrate or silicon interposer as the CPU/GPU die itself. The reason the HBM bus can be so wide without burning a ton of die area and power is because HBM forfeits all of the extra IO driver circuitry necessary to cope with trace lengths longer than a few millimeters and less than ideal routing. It is not intended to go through sockets of any kind, so don't expect to ever see HBM as anything other than on-package.
 

CerianK

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Any possibility for this to be an APU?
Since we can assume anything we want at this point, I will go with AMD/Nvidia killer in one package. Basic tenets:
  1. To compete, must 'Give them what they want'.
  2. 'Xe' reads 'Xeon', but limited in some fashion.
  3. Should run Linux out-of-the-box.
  4. CPU cores close knit with GPU cores.
  5. Ray-tracing hardware possible.
  6. Intended to take the place of Itanium/Phi/KL, but no mistakes this time.
  7. Does not need to be price competitive... will be in class by itself.
  8. If low-end makes it to consumer space eventually, nearly single-chip motherboards possible... perhaps fully SoC.
I've worked out most of the possibilities in my head, and I agree with the statement from the article 'Go big or go home' being the operative idea.
 
https://www.techspot.com/news/85076-intel-raja-koduri-confirms-massive-father-all-gpu.html

"More importantly, Koduri has now confirmed that this GPU is indeed a slice of Intel's Xe HP silicon (and not Xe HPC/Ponte Vecchio), and is targeted at data centers."

No need to debate any longer.
Good first day on the internet to you my good sir!
Does it even matter were this particular chip is aimed at?! They made it an SKU a chip they can take out half of it and replace it with CPU cores,they could make a version with half the units or different units to make this a consumer product.
Being a socketable chip could mean they will bring out consumer mobos in the future that will have an addition socket for such an GPU no more PCI lanes,4x what? straight up socket.
There is so much to debate here.
 

JarredWaltonGPU

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https://www.techspot.com/news/85076-intel-raja-koduri-confirms-massive-father-all-gpu.html

"More importantly, Koduri has now confirmed that this GPU is indeed a slice of Intel's Xe HP silicon (and not Xe HPC/Ponte Vecchio), and is targeted at data centers."

No need to debate any longer.
Important to note that "this chip" is the massive package. There will still be Xe HP consumer GPUs, but they'll be single chip solutions that aren't in a massive package, and probably not with HBM2 (HBM2e?) memory. But yeah, there was clarification over the weekend.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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You cannot put HBM elsewhere on the PCB, it is designed specifically to be placed on the same substrate or silicon interposer as the CPU/GPU die itself. The reason the HBM bus can be so wide without burning a ton of die area and power is because HBM forfeits all of the extra IO driver circuitry necessary to cope with trace lengths longer than a few millimeters and less than ideal routing. It is not intended to go through sockets of any kind, so don't expect to ever see HBM as anything other than on-package.
IC, good to know.
 

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