News Intel might axe the 18A process node for foundry customers, essentially leaving TSMC with no rival — Intel reportedly to focus on 14A

[Admin]

Intel CEO Lip-Bu Tan is weighing whether to stop offering the company's 18A technology to external clients and instead focus on the next-generation 14A process, a move that could withdraw Intel from the broad foundry market for several years.

Intel might axe the 18A process node for foundry customers, essentially leaving TSMC with no rival — Intel reportedly to focus on 14A : Read more

 

[User of Computers]

Intel has been saying since Foundry Direct Connect that 18A is a mostly internal node, and that 18A-P is what customers were more interested in. This isn't really news?

 

[joeer77]

Time to sell my Intel stock...

 

[jg.millirem]

Constantly changing plans, floundering, hapless.

 

[DHB]

Intel has been saying since Foundry Direct Connect that 18A is a mostly internal node, and that 18A-P is what customers were more interested in. This isn't really news?

Instead of writing 18a off why not charge what Apple can’t refuse? Or for loss not to excede write off/loss? And get a customer in the process.

I don’t get the company’s thinking and as my background is software, so just my naive 2¢.

Paying the cost to develop for a new process may not make sense if 18a isn’t sufficiently better than TSMC, but getting another supplier usually is a good thing. (However, If it ain’t broke…)

 

[sseemaku]

Just saw a post few days back that demand for advanced nodes has skyrocketed. And then we have Intel struggling to get any customers for its advanced node. I hope people more knowledgeable can throw some light on what are the issues with 18A.

 

[TerryLaze]

Instead of writing 18a off why not charge what Apple can’t refuse? Or equivalent to write off loss?

What do you mean by "writing off" ? They are going to use 18A the same way they used all of their nodes from since they became intel, they will make a full line up and sell them.
With only two foundries that make 18A there is probably no space for anybody else's products anyway.
Intel will have to get a few more fabs running for them to have enough fabs to produce for others as well.

 

[JamesJones44]

Presumably Intel is still using 18A internally for their own up coming processors. Some of that would not be allowed to be written off. Intel would have to show without a doubt that the machines are being "scrapped" and not used for other purpose. It could save money by not scaling a node to other fabs due to low external demand, but I'm a little more skeptical about how much they will actually be able to write down if they still use the nodes for internal products. I suppose if they only produce their internal products at one site, they could write off/down the others.

 

[S58_is_the_goat]

Is this the new 10nm?

 

[Eximo]

Is this the new 10nm?

Not if it gets used by Intel. They did skip 20A I suppose. If they use all the manufacturing capacity to make Core and Xeon, and maybe Arc tiles/GPUs I would call that a success. Even if Intel doesn't end up competing well.

 

[TerryLaze]

Presumably Intel is still using 18A internally for their own up coming processors. Some of that would not be allowed to be written off. Intel would have to show without a doubt that the machines are being "scrapped" and not used for other purpose. It could save money by not scaling a node to other fabs due to low external demand, but I'm a little more skeptical about how much they will actually be able to write down if they still use the nodes for internal products. I suppose if they only produce their internal products at one site, they could write off/down the others.

However, in addition to Intel itself, only Amazon, Microsoft, and the U.S. Department of Defence have formally confirmed plans to use 18A. While Broadcom and Nvidia are also reportedly testing Intel's latest process technology, they have yet to commit to using it for actual products.

Ms=15B
US DoD=3B
Amazon= "multibillion"
Intel itself= ~17B gross last year and that was using tsmc, so that would be a minimum for their own node.

That should cover the expenses of the 2 or three FABs that are ready to make 18A, they spend about 90B until now so they will be getting back a good chunk of that.

 

[bit_user]

Not if it gets used by Intel. They did skip 20A I suppose. If they use all the manufacturing capacity to make Core and Xeon, and maybe Arc tiles/GPUs I would call that a success.

Hasn't it already been confirmed that the compute tiles of Nova Lake will use TSMC?

Intel Reportedly Places 2nm Orders For Nova Lake At TSMC; Foundry Division Likely To Be Left Out For Now

Intel has placed 2nm orders at TSMC for their Nova Lake CPUs, as Team Blue plans out a massive comeback in the desktop processor segment.

wccftech.com

 

[JamesJones44]

Hasn't it already been confirmed that the compute tiles of Nova Lake will use TSMC?

Intel Reportedly Places 2nm Orders For Nova Lake At TSMC; Foundry Division Likely To Be Left Out For Now

Intel has placed 2nm orders at TSMC for their Nova Lake CPUs, as Team Blue plans out a massive comeback in the desktop processor segment.

wccftech.com

I missed that bit of news. If that is true then 18A might not move forward for internal production after all.

 

[Eximo]

Interesting. I guess they are talking about the SoC as well as the GPU? Not exactly clear, just that Intel placed an order.

The interposer on the Arrowlake was 10nm right? That could potentially shift to Intel as well.

 

[DS426]

What do you mean by "writing off" ? They are going to use 18A the same way they used all of their nodes from since they became intel, they will make a full line up and sell them.
With only two foundries that make 18A there is probably no space for anybody else's products anyway.
Intel will have to get a few more fabs running for them to have enough fabs to produce for others as well.

So IFS loses billions of dollars by having all of their advanced node capacity full to the brim? I get that CapEx for new nodes is CRAZY expensive, but loans aren't going to get paid off when profits are in the negative billions. TSMC invests tens of billions per year on new nodes, but they're profitable.

I don't think so. Intel is its own customer is down on chip volume, so that's one hit right there.

I don't believe in this company at all at this point. Sell the future's concepts while literally selling off current developments that have reached fruition is not a business strategy that can continue on forever. Unless someone can show me hard concrete evidence otherwise, it's literally living on hope.

I know banks don't run this way, so how is Intel even able to continue reneging on their promises? I wouldn't loan them one penny if I was a business, and I sure as heck aren't about to invest in them.

 

[rluker5]

Hasn't it already been confirmed that the compute tiles of Nova Lake will use TSMC?

​

Intel Reportedly Places 2nm Orders For Nova Lake At TSMC; Foundry Division Likely To Be Left Out For Now

Intel has placed 2nm orders at TSMC for their Nova Lake CPUs, as Team Blue plans out a massive comeback in the desktop processor segment.

wccftech.com

​

That is not what the source for that source says.
The Taiwan source says that some outsiders have guessed that is what is going on and that only some tile is coming from TSMC.

But really, does Intel have the capacity yet to serve more than themselves, MS, Amazon, and the DOD? Are they already fully booked?

 

[bit_user]

That is not what the source for that source says.
The Taiwan source says that some outsiders have guessed that is what is going on and that only some tile is coming from TSMC.

Intel has publicly stated that they will continue to use external foundries, as cited in the WCCFTech article.

I'm relying on Google Translate, but the Taiwan Economic Daily article says:

"the market heard that Intel has also joined the ranks of TSMC's first batch of 2nm customers. It will be used to produce next-generation PC processors and is currently intensively preparing for trial production at TSMC's Hsinchu plant to facilitate subsequent yield adjustments."
​

So, it is very explicit in its statement, even if the underlying information might not be rock-solid. Not sure where you got the wording you're citing, but I know you're always very defensive of Intel so I trust you less than I trust them.

 

[TerryLaze]

So IFS loses billions of dollars by having all of their advanced node capacity full to the brim? I get that CapEx for new nodes is CRAZY expensive, but loans aren't going to get paid off when profits are in the negative billions. TSMC invests tens of billions per year on new nodes, but they're profitable.

I don't think so. Intel is its own customer is down on chip volume, so that's one hit right there.

I don't believe in this company at all at this point. Sell the future's concepts while literally selling off current developments that have reached fruition is not a business strategy that can continue on forever. Unless somehow can show me hard concrete evidence otherwise, it's literally living on hope.

I know banks don't run this way, so how is Intel even able to continue reneging on their promises? I wouldn't loan them one penny if I was a business, and I sure as heck aren't about to invest in them.

They didn't get any loan to build the FABs. They used the profits they made during human malware plus the profits they make every year, plus some of the FABs are co financed by a company.
Also this:

Ms=15B
US DoD=3B
Amazon= "multibillion"
Intel itself= ~17B gross last year and that was using tsmc, so that would be a minimum for their own node.

That should cover the expenses of the 2 or three FABs that are ready to make 18A, they spend about 90B until now so they will be getting back a good chunk of that.

 

[BigNTall]

So 18A isn't ready after all? Thank you Pat. Thank you affirmative action kid. Thank you the board for choosing some cr*ppy religious fanatic as CEO. Thank you for choosing somebody without even a PHD as CEO. At least Pat had style - he'd rather lose $100B (of somebody else's money) than a mere $1B.

 

[thestryker]

The interposer on the Arrowlake was 10nm right

22nm (I don't know which version of it they're using for it though)

 

[thestryker]

My only thoughts on this is that if it's true I'd expect Intel to start writing off DUV fabs this year.

 

[jackt]

Trump will be mad 😆

 

[bit_user]

Trump will be mad 😆

I think the Administration's focus is simply to have the manufacturing happen on US soil. They don't seem particularly concerned about whether it's TSMC, Intel, or Samsung who owns the plant. I disagree, because ownership of the process IP counts at least as much as the physical plant, but that's just my opinion.

 

[-Fran-]

Was Broadcomm the only one actually getting chips from Intel Foundries? Am I forgetting others?

I ask, because, at some point, they'll have to commit to a particular node and deliver so clients and Intel can fine tune the relationships on how to deliver the nodes. What I see here is rather dangerous. While I understand, at a high level, why it is being done, I can't shake the feeling that he's gambling big time with this. I'm not sure how "big" the side-step to the new node is and how the conversations with potential node clients are, but I wouldn't be surprised that Intel had to cave to the pressure at the expense of gambling they'll be able to pull off 14A for customers. Also, given the costs, how big the clients have to be in order to turn a profit?

Risky as all hell, if you ask me.

Regards.

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

Cutting edge nodes are all well and good, but in the Angstrom Era the benefits aren't as drastic, and a mature older process is worth more than a cutting edge less refined one.