Is it reasonable to buy a mining-involved cards?

[KalashnjukUA]

Hi everyone! What do you think about it? There is an opinion that even mere a hard gaming is considered to be worse compared to 24/7 mining. Have you got any experience? It seems to be quite actual topic for conversation as currently cryprocurrency is getting weaker everyday, hence we've got a pile of used graphic cards, included ivolved-mining ones.

 

[k1114]

What's worse 100% gpu usage 24/7 or 100% usage a couple hours a day? It's not much of a topic to discuss.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

What's worse 100% gpu usage 24/7 or 100% usage a couple hours a day? It's not much of a topic to discuss.

Do not forget that during mining process a card is always under approximately the same temperature zone, meanwhile in gaming a card is influenced by changing temperate all the time. I do not want to prove something, if you may disprove it, please, I would really love to discover something new.
Frankly, I would like to handle this issue.

 

[k1114]

And there are other factors too but it doesn't change the fact that it's under heavy usage and is wearing it out. The gpu is going to be dead in a few years and that's a lot less than a gpu that was only used for gaming. I can't say I have used a gpu for mining for a few years but I've seen it plenty on cpus for compute. The other components are all perfectly fine but the cpus get changed out every few years because they die.

 

[ElectrO_90]

A proper miner under volts the card and so it doesn't wear out like people are saying.
I mine and game with the same cards for the past 4 years - NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!

 

[electro_neanderthal]

Well, PSUs wear out the more they are used, and eventually go bad. A graphics card also has components that are designed to handle power and send it to the right place (at the right voltage): The more use, the more the components wear down. The way I see it, a graphics card is more likely to die from a power component failure before the GPU goes; which may also fry the GPU itself (flip a coin).

Even if the GPU is undamaged, properly repairing the power components is probably more expensive (and time consuming) than getting a new card. And every time another worn power component fails, you run the risk of frying the GPU.

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

I've had a video card exclusively used for heavy gaming and it went hard for 4 years, playing games it probably shouldn't have, and it still works the same as day one. However, I don't think a mining card nor a gaming card will die within 4 years, at least. But I'd still be willing to bet that a GPU (regardless of use) will die of a power component failure before it dies of a GPU failure. So I'm thinking you'd get a few more years out of a non-overclocked gaming use card.

Edit (the actual conclusion):
Therefore, assuming those used mining cards are well taken care of by a miner who cared about them (which means they did what they could to keep the card healthy, and then have returned everything to stock when selling), it would be reasonable to expect maybe 1.5 - 2 years of moderate to heavier gaming after a 3 year mining workload. About the same if you purchased from someone who responsibly overclocked, and 2-ish years less than someone who never overclocked.

That is, however, assuming the cards are still relevant to the games being played.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

Well, PSUs wear out the more they are used, and eventually go bad. A graphics card also has components that are designed to handle power and send it to the right place (at the right voltage): The more use, the more the components wear down. The way I see it, a graphics card is more likely to die from a power component failure before the GPU goes; which may also fry the GPU itself (flip a coin).

Even if the GPU is undamaged, properly repairing the power components is probably more expensive (and time consuming) than getting a new card. And every time another worn power component fails, you run the risk of frying the GPU.

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

I've had a video card exclusively used for heavy gaming and it went hard for 4 years, playing games it probably shouldn't have, and it still works the same as day one. However, I don't think a mining card nor a gaming card will die within 4 years, at least. But I'd still be willing to bet that a GPU (regardless of use) will die of a power component failure before it dies of a GPU failure. So I'm thinking you'd get a few more years out of a non-overclocked gaming use card.

Edit (the actual conclusion):
Therefore, assuming those used mining cards are well taken care of by a miner who cared about them (which means they did what they could to keep the card healthy, and then have returned everything to stock when selling), it would be reasonable to expect maybe 1.5 - 2 years of moderate to heavier gaming after a 3 year mining workload. About the same if you purchased from someone who responsibly overclocked, and 2-ish years less than someone who never overclocked.

That is, however, assuming the cards are still relevant to the games being played.

What if such cards were previously supplied with high-quality PSUs? Are such cards considered to be good choices?

 

[electro_neanderthal]

Well, PSUs wear out the more they are used, and eventually go bad. A graphics card also has components that are designed to handle power and send it to the right place (at the right voltage): The more use, the more the components wear down. The way I see it, a graphics card is more likely to die from a power component failure before the GPU goes; which may also fry the GPU itself (flip a coin).

Even if the GPU is undamaged, properly repairing the power components is probably more expensive (and time consuming) than getting a new card. And every time another worn power component fails, you run the risk of frying the GPU.

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

I've had a video card exclusively used for heavy gaming and it went hard for 4 years, playing games it probably shouldn't have, and it still works the same as day one. However, I don't think a mining card nor a gaming card will die within 4 years, at least. But I'd still be willing to bet that a GPU (regardless of use) will die of a power component failure before it dies of a GPU failure. So I'm thinking you'd get a few more years out of a non-overclocked gaming use card.

Edit (the actual conclusion):
Therefore, assuming those used mining cards are well taken care of by a miner who cared about them (which means they did what they could to keep the card healthy, and then have returned everything to stock when selling), it would be reasonable to expect maybe 1.5 - 2 years of moderate to heavier gaming after a 3 year mining workload. About the same if you purchased from someone who responsibly overclocked, and 2-ish years less than someone who never overclocked.

That is, however, assuming the cards are still relevant to the games being played.

What if such cards were previously supplied with high-quality PSUs? Are such cards considered to be good choices?

My statement was assuming the PSU was delivering enough wattage constantly to start with, so the quality of the PSU wouldn't matter unless it was failing to deliver enough wattage. I used PSUs as an example because both PSUs and video cards have similar components that wear down in the same way.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

Well, PSUs wear out the more they are used, and eventually go bad. A graphics card also has components that are designed to handle power and send it to the right place (at the right voltage): The more use, the more the components wear down. The way I see it, a graphics card is more likely to die from a power component failure before the GPU goes; which may also fry the GPU itself (flip a coin).

Even if the GPU is undamaged, properly repairing the power components is probably more expensive (and time consuming) than getting a new card. And every time another worn power component fails, you run the risk of frying the GPU.

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

I've had a video card exclusively used for heavy gaming and it went hard for 4 years, playing games it probably shouldn't have, and it still works the same as day one. However, I don't think a mining card nor a gaming card will die within 4 years, at least. But I'd still be willing to bet that a GPU (regardless of use) will die of a power component failure before it dies of a GPU failure. So I'm thinking you'd get a few more years out of a non-overclocked gaming use card.

Edit (the actual conclusion):
Therefore, assuming those used mining cards are well taken care of by a miner who cared about them (which means they did what they could to keep the card healthy, and then have returned everything to stock when selling), it would be reasonable to expect maybe 1.5 - 2 years of moderate to heavier gaming after a 3 year mining workload. About the same if you purchased from someone who responsibly overclocked, and 2-ish years less than someone who never overclocked.

That is, however, assuming the cards are still relevant to the games being played.

What if such cards were previously supplied with high-quality PSUs? Are such cards considered to be good choices?

My statement was assuming the PSU was delivering enough wattage constantly to start with, so the quality of the PSU wouldn't matter unless it was failing to deliver enough wattage. I used PSUs as an example because both PSUs and video cards have similar components that wear down in the same way.

So here is the matter whether a card consumes enough wattage, not the quality of the PSU itself? Did I get you right?

 

[Barty1884]

Mining, in general, will have quite a bit of variance.

If the previous owner did their homework, ran the cards at "safe" temps, appropriate power and, most likely, under-volted.... then I wouldn't view them as any "better" or "worse" than any other used GPU.

At the end of the day, GPU vendors warrant their cards for X period of time. They don't distinguish between 100% load 24/7 (potentially mining) or 100% load for a couple of hours a day (more akin to gaming). So, provided there's a decent warranty period left AND it's transferable to a new owner, they're likely very worthwhile considerations.

 

[TJ Hooker]

And there are other factors too but it doesn't change the fact that it's under heavy usage and is wearing it out. The gpu is going to be dead in a few years and that's a lot less than a gpu that was only used for gaming. I can't say I have used a gpu for mining for a few years but I've seen it plenty on cpus for compute. The other components are all perfectly fine but the cpus get changed out every few years because they die.

a) Many common ASIC-resistant crypto algorithms (e.g. for ethereum) are memory bound, and therefore the card isn't actually under full load while mining.

b) Hashing provides a constant (and in the case of some algorithms, moderate) load, while gaming presents a heavy, variable load. This results in components heating up and cooling down (and therefore expanding and contracting), causing mechanical stress to the card.

Without knowing all the details on how a specific card has been treated, I wouldn't consider a card used for mining any worse than a card used for heavy gaming in general.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

How would undervolting increase amperage?

 

[KalashnjukUA]

And there are other factors too but it doesn't change the fact that it's under heavy usage and is wearing it out. The gpu is going to be dead in a few years and that's a lot less than a gpu that was only used for gaming. I can't say I have used a gpu for mining for a few years but I've seen it plenty on cpus for compute. The other components are all perfectly fine but the cpus get changed out every few years because they die.

a) Many common ASIC-resistant crypto algorithms (e.g. for ethereum) are memory bound, and therefore the card isn't actually under full load while mining.

b) Hashing provides a constant (and in the case of some algorithms, moderate) load, while gaming presents a heavy, variable load. This results in components heating up and cooling down (and therefore expanding and contracting), causing mechanical stress to the card.

Without knowing all the details to how a specific card has been treated, I wouldn't consider a card used for mining any worse than a card used for heavy gaming.

I agree, however not every miner will confess in the actual script of how his/her card was working.

 

[TJ Hooker]

I agree, however not every miner will confess in the actual script of how his/her card was working.

You don't really need to know the ins and outs of the exact miner software that was being used, just what coin is being mined. For example, ethereum (probably the most popular coin to GPU mine right now) uses the ethash algorithm. This is heavily memory bound, which is why the GPU core is usually significantly underclocked and undervolted on cards used for eth mining. The VRAM is also usually undervolted as well, at least on AMD cards.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

I agree, however not every miner will confess in the actual script of how his/her card was working.

You don't really need to know the ins and outs of the exact miner software that was being used, just what coin is being mined. For example, ethereum (probably the most popular coin to GPU mine right now) uses the ethash algorithm. This is heavily memory bound, which is why the GPU core is usually significantly underclocked and undervolted on cards used for eth mining. The VRAM is also usually undervolted as well, at least on AMD cards.

What if a miner says the card was mining zcash, hush, zclassic and nicehash coins? Do you know the ins and outs?

 

[TJ Hooker]

It's pretty easy to lookup which algorithm is used for which coins. The first 3 you listed use equihash. If they're using nicehash then you really don't know what coins they were mining, but it would be pretty easy to guess by looking at what has been most profitable to mine for the last while for the card in question.

Obviously it's always possible for the person selling it to you to lie. But that could just as easily be said for a gaming card, e.g. the person claims the card has only seen light use and never been overclocked but it's actually they've actually been running it overclocked to the hilt for heavy gaming.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

It's pretty easy to lookup which algorithm is used for which coins. The first 3 you listed use equihash. If they're using nicehash then you really don't know what coins they were mining, but it would be pretty easy to guess by looking at what has been most profitable to mine for the last while for the card in question.

Obviously it's always possible for the person selling it to you to lie. But that could just as easily be said for a gaming card, e.g. the person claims the card has only seen light use and never been overclocked but it's actually they've actually been running it overclocked to the hilt for heavy gaming.

I don't know exactly, but he says a card was working with 85% undervolting mode.May it be the truth?

 

[TJ Hooker]

Are you asking this with regard to buying a particular used mining card? Your initial post made it sound like a hypothetical discussion of whether buying mining cards is a good idea in general.

If so, what card are you looking at buying and how old is it?

 

[k1114]

A proper miner under volts the card and so it doesn't wear out like people are saying.
I mine and game with the same cards for the past 4 years - NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!

The fact that you do game changes the argument as it's not the same as a mining gpu which was used 24/7. What you are doing is resulting in a longer life and would actually help my point that gaming is less of an effect than mining.

I won't quote others since there's been many other things brought up that I will just mention. Companies have been changing warranties specifically saying mining voids it or denying warranties even if they didn't state it. It doesn't matter what coin. You can lie about it just as other issues in warranty claims but that gets into fraud and legality issues and it doesn't change the fact it does. I don't see them changing warranty for a non issue and I would suspect they see the same thing I am that more gpus are failing and it's not a new series or some other factor causing it.

I don't deny the damages of heating and cooling cycles. I would say it's a bigger factor than others but it's overblown. There's plenty of pcs that were gaming pcs over the years and how long did the gpus last? More than enough time so it's safe to say, it's a negligible factor and not to worry about lifespan in any traditional use of a gpu. But you can see many more mining gpus die in shorter times than those gaming pcs.

A full load doesn't need to be put on the card when only a single part failure kills a card and makes it pointless to fix. You can have a lesser load and be less stress on it which yes would lengthen it but we are still seeing more dying. There isn't any professional mtbf studies but google mining killing gpus and you see how many more instances you find vs gpus dying from gaming or other circumstances.

 

[TJ Hooker]

A proper miner under volts the card and so it doesn't wear out like people are saying.
I mine and game with the same cards for the past 4 years - NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!

The fact that you do game changes the argument as it's not the same as a mining gpu which was used 24/7. What you are doing is resulting in a longer life and would actually help my point that gaming is less of an effect than mining.

How would that be better? If we assume he's mining whenever he isn't gaming, that would mean it's still being used 24/7 but with a more variable (and possibly more strenuous) load than if he were just mining.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

Are you asking this with regard to buying a particular used mining card? Your initial post made it sound like a hypothetical discussion of whether buying mining cards is a good idea in general.

If so, what card are you looking at buying and how old is it?

Well, I'm gonna buy EVGA gtx 1070 acx 3.0. A seller's cards regime of working and which coins were being mining I have already mentioned.

 

[KalashnjukUA]

A proper miner under volts the card and so it doesn't wear out like people are saying.
I mine and game with the same cards for the past 4 years - NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!

The fact that you do game changes the argument as it's not the same as a mining gpu which was used 24/7. What you are doing is resulting in a longer life and would actually help my point that gaming is less of an effect than mining.

I won't quote others since there's been many other things brought up that I will just mention. Companies have been changing warranties specifically saying mining voids it or denying warranties even if they didn't state it. It doesn't matter what coin. You can lie about it just as other issues in warranty claims but that gets into fraud and legality issues and it doesn't change the fact it does. I don't see them changing warranty for a non issue and I would suspect they see the same thing I am that more gpus are failing and it's not a new series or some other factor causing it.

I don't deny the damages of heating and cooling cycles. I would say it's a bigger factor than others but it's overblown. There's plenty of pcs that were gaming pcs over the years and how long did the gpus last? More than enough time so it's safe to say, it's a negligible factor and not to worry about lifespan in any traditional use of a gpu. But you can see many more mining gpus die in shorter times than those gaming pcs.

A full load doesn't need to be put on the card when only a single part failure kills a card and makes it pointless to fix. You can have a lesser load and be less stress on it which yes would lengthen it but we are still seeing more dying. There isn't any professional mtbf studies but google mining killing gpus and you see how many more instances you find vs gpus dying from gaming or other circumstances.

What about a settled load during mining process and variable load while gaming?

 

[TJ Hooker]

Companies have been changing warranties specifically saying mining voids it or denying warranties even if they didn't state it. It doesn't matter what coin.

Excluding mining cards from warrant saves them money with virtually no downside even if mining cards fail no more often than non mining cards. If one company tried to shorten warranties in general compared to competition they may get less business from gamers, but miners are going to buy up the cards anyway.

Also, pretty much every miner will mod/tweak their cards, meaning they're more likely to get damaged by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. E.g. a card gets bricked because someone screwed up flashing a modded BIOS. But those issues weed themselves out early on, so I wouldn't say it makes buying a mining card any more risky as long as you're able to verify it's fully functional before you buy it. And it doesn't mean that mining itself is more likely to kill a card.

I don't deny the damages of heating and cooling cycles. I would say it's a bigger factor than others but it's overblown. There's plenty of pcs that were gaming pcs over the years and how long did the gpus last? More than enough time so it's safe to say, it's a negligible factor and not to worry about lifespan in any traditional use of a gpu. But you can see many more mining gpus die in shorter times than those gaming pcs.

Where do you see "many more mining gpus dieing in shorter times"? Seeing people talk about it here and there on Tom's or whatnot is just an anecdote. I see plenty of people talking about cards dying from regular use as well.

A full load doesn't need to be put on the card when only a single part failure kills a card and makes it pointless to fix. You can have a lesser load and be less stress on it which yes would lengthen it but we are still seeing more dying. There isn't any professional mtbf studies but google mining killing gpus and you see how many more instances you find vs gpus dying from gaming or other circumstances.

Except you have no proof that more mining cards are actually dying. Relying on number of google results is a frankly a laughable way to try to prove that. And if I google "mining kills gpus" as you suggest, most results I see are simply from people asking if it does (and people responding that it does without any evidence).

 

[KalashnjukUA]

TJ Hooker, what do you think is it worth buying evga1070 after mining?

 

[electro_neanderthal]

Undervolting only works for so long, since the components are still being used non-stop. And if the core usage isn't also suitably lowered, you increase the amperage (speed, or rate of flow). The place I worked at had 2 industrial $5000 motherboards fail within 2 years due to undervolting.

How would undervolting increase amperage?

Easy, if the draw remains the same, but the voltage decreases (less volume), then amperage increases (faster flow) to compensate so it still meets the needed wattage. But, if you lower the power consumption, undervolting is still not a problem (unless you go too far). Thermal expansion, however, is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be, so that argument, while possibly true in a frigid room/environment, won't hold up for most people. The power components on the card are still likely the first thing to go on any card, used for gaming or mining.

The biggest difference is the owner, not the usage. Still, when it comes to 80% power 100% of the time versus "up to 100%" power 60% of the time, it's pretty easy to see why people hesitate to buy a card used for mining. For most people with a high enough disposable income, it's not an issue and buying a used, responsibly owned, mining card is a great deal. For people who can't afford a new card every 3 years, a new but less powerful card might be the better option for longevity.