Is it worth changing from ATI X850 XT to X1950 pro (AGP)?

[slim142]

Let me tell you that I dont need the best of the best even if they were the best 2 years ago because they are not worth the money.

What the hell are you smoking? When did I ever, ever say that everyone needs 'the best of the best'? Or that people should go out and buy an X850 XT RIGHT NOW? Read the thread dude. The original poster already has one!

If you find them retail (you are lucky if you do) they cost up to the same of a high-end card and if you go to ebay, they pass the $150 mark, so what makes you think "they are some of the best AGP cards money can buy"? you are totally wrong in this statement.

*sigh*. Once again, read the thread.

And for the record, the X850 XT will stand toe-to-toe with the 7600 GT and 7800 GS in AGP. The ONLY better card out there is the X1950 PRO. (and the Gainward 7800 GS, Europe only though)
So tell me, how does that not make them one of the best AGP cards money can buy? They are still in the top tier performance-wise, I never suggested people should go out and buy them right now, but once again: the OP already has one. READ THE THREAD. GET THE CONTEXT.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to ask, are you trying to say that a x850xt pe is better than a 6800Ultra?

Whaaaat? No! In my books they are on par. Now, where did I even hint at that?

Please review what you write before posting it.

Please read the thread before replying. :roll:

Cleeve, its true, i didnt spend time reading the hole post, im just answering to what I see you are posting. Im not against you, I also own ATI cards for some reason.
I never said the 6800U was better than the x850xt pe, what I said was that IT WAS ITS COMPETITOR since it was the top card of NVIDIA.

But what I really hate is how ATI has come down all this time, AMD should have never bought it. I expect to see some good extra perfomance from R600 over 8800 cards.

Once again,sorry, but im not going to spend time reading the hole post, and if the op did already got a $300 agp card for his old system, is his problem, we shouldnt be bothering answering here anymore. Facts have been written all over the forums and we also have the benchamrks.

 

[cleeve]

M'learned friend mr s4fun,

If not then what right do have to claim you are more familiar than anyone else? What proof have you got? You no more interpret second hand information like the rest of us. Some of us here actually have some first hand experimental data.

LoL, you walked right into that one... :lol:
I have been a game developer for a few years, and I am a hardware journalist for Tom's Hardware so I have personally tested all sorts of graphics cards in a lab setting. I have personally tested the cards we're discussing in this thread, of course. 'First Hand' information, you might say.

Tell me s4fun, what are your credentials? :twisted:


You can sit around and argue semantics, thought police, shafts in my bum, and whatever other irrelevancy you are obsessed with.

However, none of that really affects the argument at hand - you know, the one you avoided rebutting - so let's get off of our 'pedestals' and discuss what we're arguing in the first place, shall we?

The fact is that you said Ati was 'screwing it's customers' because a two generation-old Ati card doesn't support the SM 3.0 that only now - three years after it's introduction - can't play two titles.

My rebuttal to that is that you put forward a ridiculous conclusion, because no hardware lasts forever. PC users buy with the hope that a card will be able to play the latest titles for two years. The X800 architecture has lasted at least three.

I would further argue that the inability to play two, relatively insignificant titles does not negate the X800's ability to provide more gaming enjoyment in the future.

I await your rebuttal. All I ask is that you stick to the argument, and try to avoid referencing this 'bum-shafting' activity you seem so interested in talking about...

 

[Synergy6]

A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

1 a view or judgement not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified.

As long as something is held "with confidence", or is a person's "view", it is an opinion. Factual basis is irrelevant. A proposition is a statement which may contain an opinion, which is quite different. Therefore, you may call a fact wrong, a proposition wrong, or an opinion wronly based, but not an opinion itself wrong.

P.S. I like 'pedestals'

 

[Dr_asik]

Sorry people for turning this forum into philosophy.

First of all you can't call a fact wrong, because a fact is something real, and reality cannot be wrong.

Secondly, opinions are propositions held by people, and holding a proposition is thinking it as being true. Therefore opinions can be evaluated on the basis of their truth, that is, as being more or less wrong or true.

If opinions cannot be wrong, just explain to me how can I not be wrong in stating or thinking something that is false?

Isn't lack of evidence the basis of most errors in human thinking? If an opinion is a conclusion with lack of evidence, how can it not be prone to error? And if is prone to error, how can it not be wrong?

 

[Synergy6]

I didn't say you could call a fact wrong... But then, as an opinion does not require fact, it's rather irrelevant.

Perhaps you should refresh your memory over "proposition". It is a statement, not a mental state. Opinions are not "thinking it as being true", they are merely human thoughts which do not require any fact, be it true or otherwise.

As I've said before (and it's rather tiresome to repeat one's self), there is a difference between a fact, and an opinion which may or may be related to that fact. If you are thinking about a fact, which happens to be incorrect, then your thinking is similarly incorrect. However, an opinion does not even require a fact to exist.

For something to be wrong, it also has to have the possiblity of being right. Opinions are neither. They are merely qualitative judgements from a personal perspective. They may be *considered* "right" or "wrong" based on the opinions of another, but that is not a strong enough basis for their validity, or lack thereof.

P.S. http://www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=20543 on same subject

 

[Dr_asik]

I didn't say you could call a fact wrong...

You said: "you may call a fact wrong", and I'm copy-pasting.

For something to be wrong, it also has to have the possiblity of being right. Opinions are neither. They are merely qualitative judgements from a personal perspective.

Whatever the nature of the jugement you make by holding this or that opinion, this judgement refers to reality. If it corresponds to it, it is true. If it doesn't, it is wrong. The use of the words "personal", "subjective" or "individual" do not change the fact that whenever you state something, either mentally or to another person, you refer to reality and therefore your statement can be judged on its correspondance to reality, something we refer to as truth.

A proposition, statement or judgement that would not refer to anything would be empty and therefore not a proposition, statement or judgement.

My opinion is my opinion. I never said my opinion was the ultimate, final answer. My opinion is simply the stance I choose to take on issues after carefully weighing all sides and looking at all the relevant information. Opinion. View. Belief. It is the ultimate irony to make the statement "Your opinion is wrong," because an opinion can't be wrong. It can be disagreed with, but it can't be incorrect because it is simply one's personal view.

Then why did she "carefully weighed all sides and looked at all the relevant information", if not because she wanted her conclusion to be true, as close to fact as possible? If so, how can someone not judge this conclusion in terms of its proximity to fact, that is, truth? No way. This argument is contradictory.

 

[slim142]

oh well thx man, after writing so much i think i didnt even see what i wrote hehe

 

[Synergy6]

Facts, i.e. quantitative information, can be right or wrong. Opinions can be neither.

1 + 1 = 2
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is true

1 + 1 = 3
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is false

My daydream was awesome
is an unverifiable opinion. It is neither true nor false

I can't really explain it any more simply.

 

[Mach5Motorsport]

Facts, i.e. quantitative information, can be right or wrong. Opinions can be neither.

1 + 1 = 2
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is true

1 + 1 = 3
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is false

My daydream was awesome
is an unverifiable opinion. It is neither true nor false

I can't really explain it any more simply.

Ok, I'm bored now. My life force just got lowered a few points by reading your lecture.
I am in agreement with Cleeve. If a person can't read a post, responders are free to respond. btw, wrong is wrong. An opinion that is poorly supported without any relevant thought or supporting/relevant material is fair game.

 

[Dr_asik]

Facts are what happens in reality. So 1+1=3 is not a fact because the addition of two quantities is not equal to the sum of three.

My daydream was awesome
is an unverifiable opinion. It is neither true nor false

The person who thinks his daydream was awesome has enough evidence to support his conclusion, (he experienced the dream) therefore this person can know wether the daydream was "awesome" or not. Nobody else has access to this daydream so nobody can verify this claim, but that doesn't mean that the claim is not true, nor that it is not false, nor that it is neither false or true. There is only one person capable of knowing this and it is the dreamer, but it does not affect the nature of the judgement.

Of course that example was chosen to prove your point, because it's a vague qualitative judgement ("awesome") about something only one individual has access to ("a daydream"). Still I can show you don't make any sense, but in the case at hand and to which Cleeve was responding, mr s4fun's opinion was that customers got screwed by ATI's X8** series because of lack of SM3.0 support. Now this is data everyone has access to, and not a vague judgement. Please answer my question now. On what basis is Cleeve not authorized to prove this claim wrong? Or in other words, how can the claim in question not be wrong? Because you feel like sticking the mighty word "opinion" on it?

And btw you're not proving anything by just stating your opinion. Yes I know you think opinions are neither true or false, it's not by repeating it two dozens times I'll be convinced. You don't answer questions I ask you, you're out of context with the examples you choose, and the best you did was to re-word your opinion. But as the girl in the article you cited says, please back your statements or keep them for yourself. Opinions are either true or false, but they don't persuade by themselves, unless you're an authority in a certain matter.

 

[s4fun]

ATI screws good people by many more ways than just missing SM3.0 support. Fact remains, missing that support make certain applications impossible to run. You expect an expensive piece of hardware like that should get support more that just two generations. ATI with all their clout should have twisted the arms of the game developer if they really cared about their customers. Fact of the matter is that ATI likes sell more boards and twisting arms of the developers is obviously in conflict with that. Why has ATI quit doing driver development work for the 9200 series? They still have a place for office work and such. ATI kills off the long term usefulness of their boards, because they want to force people to buy new boards. The screw you upfront by charging more by cutting corners on features and functionally and allowing them claim marginally higher performance numbers, and the screw you on the backend by killing off the boards way too early.

As for Cleeve anyone can claim to be a journalist or game developer, etc. etc. I won't ask you to prove it, but lets assume you are not lying. So what!!?? Big freaking deal. All this means you get nice working special select ones from the various corporations, you are not putting in your own dollars and spending your very limited precious hours testing and retesting, returning, exchanging, and all other related hassle. Of course it is easy for you to feel indifferent, and think we are worked up over mole hills. They want you to go hype their stuff and shut down all the negative feedback. You are in their pocket, and you have some serious conflicts of interests. You are in no position to dictate who feels they are being screwed. It is a fact that nVidia screws their customers too by the whole the HDR and AA debacle or the FX series, but that isn't the issue here.

The honest truth is that we are all suckers for this kind of crap spewing out from these corporations, but doesn't mean we have to like these companies. The problems, shortcomings, feature and functionality screwups should all be made public. Who else is going to hold these corporations to the fire? Is it your position that you want us to cut them some slack, because they all screw up all over the place? If you want us to cut them some slack, it only fair you cut the folks in the community some slack to complain about them, even if it sound fanboyish. I'm picking on ATI right now, because my latest board is an ATI and it is NOT at all a pleasant experience.

 

[kaotao]

Facts, i.e. quantitative information, can be right or wrong. Opinions can be neither.

1 + 1 = 2
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is true

1 + 1 = 3
is a a piece of verifiable information. It is false

My daydream was awesome
is an unverifiable opinion. It is neither true nor false

I can't really explain it any more simply.

Ok, I'm bored now. My life force just got lowered a few points by reading your lecture.

I'll second that. It's like going to the mall with my wife. The moment I set foot in there, I can feel the life being sucked right out of me.

I am in agreement with Cleeve. If a person can't read a post, responders are free to respond. btw, wrong is wrong. An opinion that is poorly supported without any relevant thought or supporting/relevant material is fair game.

Seconded again.

 

[kaotao]

OMG, just STFU already. Your arguement has been ripped to shreds. You're just diggin yourself into a hole, and making yourself look more and more stupid every time you open your mouth. You must really like the taste of your own foot. You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about, and we all know that Cleeve does. Companies don't stay in business, and remain competetive by screwing their customers you efin moron. Take your conspiracy theories, and your "everyone's out to screw me" mentality, start on a hefty regimine of silver nitrate, take your tin foil wardrobe, and move deep into the mountains of Montana (where "they" can't find you).

 

[s4fun]

NOT only do we have ATI worshippers, now we have Cleeve groupies too?
That is all you can say "STFU" when faced with the reality of the matter? Shooting the messenger, name calling, etc. is what you are all good at. All your whining isn't gonna hide the fact that SM 3.0 is missing on the x850xt, and VRMs are crap shoot on the x1950 pro, not to mention other driver, feature, functionality inadequacies across on the board on ATI's line of video cards.

 

[kaotao]

The reality of it, is that sm3.0 is only worth having if the card is powerful enough to FULLY utilize it. While the 6800 ultra was a great card, it still didn't quite have the power to get the most out of sm3.0, and at the time it was Nvidias top of the line card. It could be argued that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to add a feature that even your highend cards can't fully utilize. As for newer gen cards, only now can they take full advantage of sm3.0. The 7600GT is barely powerful enough to recommend buy it for that function alone. Yes, it, the 6800ultra, and the X850XT perform about the same, but the 7XXX series came out at a time when sm3.0 was more mainstream.

 

[AndonSage]

for the SM 3.0 folks, Vanguard SoH requires SM 3.0 as well. the lis tis growing...

Vanguard requires SM 3.0? I will admit I have no idea which cards do or do not have SM 3.0, but from what people have said here, an X850 does not have SM 3.0. However, I am playing Vanguard with my X850 XT PE AGP, so either that card has SM 3.0, or Vanguard doesn't require SM 3.0. I also looked at my Vanguard plastic box and there is no mention of SM 3.0.

I almost bought an X1950 Pro, but while trying to figure out which cable I needed to convert my 4-pin power supply to work with the 6-pin connector on the card, I saw that the X1950 XT is coming out in AGP, so I'm waiting for that.

I'm waiting for Vista SP1 to get a new system.

Gary

 

[AndonSage]

First of all you can't call a fact wrong, because a fact is something real, and reality cannot be wrong.

I guess you've never been involved in the "global warming" debate.

:lol:

Gary

 

[pauldh]

By his logic, NV screwed people over by making the GF4 ti's PS1.1. After all the R8500 was PS1.4 and could technically play games like BF2, when even the ti4600 could not. Yeah, GF4Ti owners sure were screwed over because they couldn't play BF2, Morrowwind, etc. Of course, the fact they enjoyed the best performance their money could buy (just as the X850XTpe owner), means absolutely nothing when 3 years later they couldn't hear "welcome to duty". And man no splinter cell double agent on my 4-X800 series cards, dang I may as well quit PC gaming and buy a wii. And my 6800U and 7800GT sucked at Oblivion and couldn't do FSAA+HDR. NV reemed me on that one. And what gives, shouldn't FX5200>Ti4600? I was screwed again, and again, and again. :roll:

 

[Dr_asik]

I guess you've never been involved in the "global warming" debate.

:lol:

Gary

I'd like to laugh with you but I don't get it. :?

 

[Dr_asik]

I was screwed again, and again, and again.

Yeah, me too. I've nothing to reproach to the two GPUs I owned, but I was certainly screwed by them without noticing. Let's all whine about how screwed by our video cards we are.

 

[cleeve]

Wow. That was more crazed paranoia than cohesive rebuttal...

As for Cleeve anyone can claim to be a journalist or game developer, etc. etc. I won't ask you to prove it, but lets assume you are not lying. So what!!?? Big freaking deal.

Lol. Wasn't it you who said "Some of us here actually have some first hand experimental data. You no more interpret second hand information like the rest of us." one post ago, as though it was important?

Then, when you find out I have more experience than you, you belittle it immediately. Heheh. How self serving and transparent can you get? :roll:

But for the sake of rubbing it in your face a bit, I invite you to take a look at my 'best cards for the money' post at the top of this forum, and see if you can see any similarities between it and the 'best cards for the money' article for March on the front page of Tom's right now... teehee!

The honest truth is that we are all suckers for this kind of crap spewing out from these corporations.

That's your opinion of the honest truth, you're entitled to it.

My opinion of the honest truth is that you're the type who makes outrageous claims and then avoids defending them by hiding behind paranoid 'everybody's out to screw us' rhetoric because those claims are indefensible.

You make no attempt at demonstrating proof or an argument, the best you can do is whine about how everybody but you has sold out, huh?

As our philosopher friends have debated earlier, there is no wrong, so I guess we're both right... therefore everyone's out to screw us, and you're a fanboy who gets real testy when someone points it out. :twisted:

 

[dsidious]

Can you explain to us why is it that it seems you are an apologist and defender of the corporations for likes of Ubisoft, nVidia, ATI, et al.? These corporations are all looking to screw the customers in the name of capitalism, and you are want to shut the customers from making any sort complaints? Even if some of them are more biased pro or con, it is well in the interest of the community that folks can fight back and bash the companies that uses and abuses their customers as beta testers. They all screw their customers, and the good folks being screwed shouldn't have to go quietly into the night, and they should be able to make all the noise they want. Let them fanboys be fanboys, their are plenty on both sides right? Why get down in the mud with them and end like one of them?

Wow, that's an interesting concept. OK. if you think corporations and capitalism are the wrong way to go, then why don't you go buy a nice graphics card (and CPU too, why not) made in Cuba or North Korea or some other nice country where the proletariat has united and kicked the butt of the blood-sucking capitalists and no corporation is allowed to explout anybody. Buy me a few too please, they've got to be cheap because people there earn $100/year or so.

I kind of agree that it sucks to be used as a beta tester without pay, However, that's your choice. Lots of people wait for 6 months until that stage is over and drivers are mature. They usually get lower prices too, you know... What would the alternative be, hire 10000 more testers? How much would the cards cost to cover all those QA salaries?

 

[Heyyou27]

As far I can tell the x850xt got a big fat 0 on the SM 3.0 test at whatever the resolution. BTW I don't play Oblivion, so I don't know what the big deal it is about foliage and forest. Must be some treehuggers wet dream or something. The 60% advantage in one test case surely does NOT justify it as being superior in all aspects, as to claim eating anything alive.

If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post. Even my overclocked 8800GTX barely cuts it for Oblivion at the maximum.

 

[Mach5Motorsport]

now we have Cleeve groupies too?

Oh heck yeah! Got a problem with that? In fact, Cleeve's stirring rendition of "Last Train to Clarksville" is the best.

 

[cleeve]

In fact, Cleeve's stirring rendition of "Last Train to Clarksville" is the best.

Thanks folks. I'll be here all week!

Please don't forget to tip your servers...