Question Is my CPU showing signs of instability ?

[p1xel8or]

CPU: i9-13900K

This is my third i9 - replaced it after I updated the BIOS to the 0x12B microcode patch. After a couple of Unreal Engine games started to crash on me, I got a bit paranoid about the CPU degrading again, and at the suggestion of Intel Support on /r/Intel I ran Intel XTU's CPU stress test for 30 minutes. The image I've linked are the results I got.

https://imgur.com/a/KfN6EdR

Computer didn't allow me to use PrintScreen when this window was open, hence the mobile capture.

Some guy on reddit pinged me saying that these are signs of a potential instability and I should start the RMA process, but I thought I'd come here for a more informed (and accurate) opinion.

 

[Lutfij]

For the sake of relevance, what is the make and model of your motherboard and what BIOS version are you on for said motherboard?

The moment you stated you're on a 13th Gen Intel processor, my preconceived idea would be to say to RMA it. I this instance since you've RMA'd twice, is it possible to add some dough and then have them upgrade you to a 14th Gen processor?

 

[dwd999]

This sounds more like a ventilation and cooling situation. Let's talk more about your cpu and case cooling since that's a lot of thermal throttling but you still passed the test. What make and model of cpu cooler are you using and are its fans running at 100 percent when the throttling occurs? What make and model case are you using and how many fans do you have and what size are they? Are your fans running at 100 percent when the throttling occurs? You could try manually setting all of your cpu and case fans to 100 percent before you start the test and then run the test again. You could also try using a program like HWiNFO to log your cpu, cpu package, vrm and motherboard temps to see what they look like when the test is running.

 

[SkyNetRising]

The image I've linked are the results I got.

Please show a photo of your system with side panel removed.
You'll need a better cpu cooling. Your cpu is overheating.

List motherboard model name.
What BIOS version exactly did you install?

 

[p1xel8or]

@Lutfij Motherboard is a GIGABYTE Z790 UD AX. BIOS Version is F13. I'm not sure about the 14th Gen upgrade, I might have to ask Intel if they would allow it.

@dwd999 CPU Cooler is GIGABYTE Aorus Waterforce X360 AIO Liquid Cooler. I have fans in the front and back, case shoots out air through the top. If it matters, I game in an air-conditioned room where the temps are set to 23° C / 73.4° F. I'm not sure about the technical stuff you mentioned, but the liquid cooling setup does come with a display panel which shows the clock speed and temps. I might have to run the test again and monitor the temps more closely.

@SkyNetRising I cannot attach a picture here, so I've uploaded it to this link: Picture of setup. Motherboard is a GIGABYTE Z790 UD AX. BIOS version with the patch was F12, installed it as soon as it became available. Currently on BIOS version F13.

 

[SkyNetRising]

Motherboard is a GIGABYTE Z790 UD AX. BIOS version with the patch was F12, installed it as soon as it became available. Currently on BIOS version F13.

And what cpu temperatures are you observing at idle / full load?

Check CPU power settings in BIOS.
Make sure, they correspond to Intel recommended baseline values.
ICCMAX 249A
PL1 125W
PL2 188W

Intel (again) Addresses Instability in 13th and 14th Gen Core i5/i7 CPUs with New Microcode

Intel once again has announced new measures to address instability issues found in some 13th and 14th Gen Core “Raptor Lake” processors, specifically targeting Core i5 and i7 models.

www.guru3d.com

 

[geofelt]

The chip is doing it's job by throttling when it gets too hot.
It is not the heat that causes the problem, it is the voltage that causes the heat.
It sounds like you are, in some way overclocking.
In the motherboard, it may be something innocuous like picking default optimized bios.

In the past, motherboard makers overclocked their motherboards by default to get a competitive advantage.
Check your motherboard seems to have the most current bios fixes.

Try this easy experiment:
In windows power management, reduce the max cpu from 100% to 99%

 

[p1xel8or]

Hey y'all. Sorry for the late reply, but I thought to update this post. Intel did confirm my CPU was showing signs of instability. I really have no idea what to do after this, this CPU was a replacement and has only ran with the 0x12B patch applied. Intel Default Settings in BIOS was set to "Extreme".

 

[SkyNetRising]

Intel did confirm my CPU was showing signs of instability.
I really have no idea what to do after this, this CPU was a replacement and has only ran with the 0x12B patch applied.
Intel Default Settings in BIOS was set to "Extreme".

Change settings to baseline.
Extreme settings are for overclocking and can cause instability.

If your cpu has deteriorated from prolonged usage in extreme mode settings, then replace the cpu.

 

[TerryLaze]

Change settings to baseline.
Extreme settings are for overclocking and can cause instability.

If your cpu has deteriorated from prolonged usage in extreme mode settings, then replace the cpu.

Extreme is not for overclocking, at least intel doesn't consider it overclocking, and CPUs can not be damaged by extreme as long as the bios has the fix.
But it is called extreme for a reason and that is because it pushes the CPU pretty high and no matter how many CPUs OP is gonna change they will all run the same as long as the cooling isn't fixed or the settings aren't lowered.

Hey y'all. Sorry for the late reply, but I thought to update this post. Intel did confirm my CPU was showing signs of instability. I really have no idea what to do after this, this CPU was a replacement and has only ran with the 0x12B patch applied. Intel Default Settings in BIOS was set to "Extreme".

Yeah, if you don't have the cooling needed for extreme then lower that setting to something your cooling can handle.

 

[p1xel8or]

Thanks for the quick reply. I do have liquid cooling for my CPU and I only play games, so I don't know what went wrong to cause it to deteriorate.

@SkyNetRising I only have 3 options in the BIOS for "Intel Default Settings" - Off, Performance and Extreme. Should I switch it to performance?

 

[SkyNetRising]

I only have 3 options in the BIOS for "Intel Default Settings" - Off, Performance and Extreme. Should I switch it to performance?

Switch to Intel default.
Then verify values have changed to Intel recommended baseline values.
ICCMAX 249A
PL1 125W
PL2 188W

 

[p1xel8or]

@SkyNetRising I was on Intel Default Settings, within the Intel Default Setting I had the aforementioned 3 options. Can you please explain the settings to look for in the BIOS which you mentioned? I'm not very tech-savvy. Thanks.

 

[TerryLaze]

@SkyNetRising I was on Intel Default Settings, within the Intel Default Setting I had the aforementioned 3 options. Can you please explain the settings to look for in the BIOS which you mentioned? I'm not very tech-savvy. Thanks.

Just go and look at the link he posted, go from extreme to performance,

And what cpu temperatures are you observing at idle / full load?

Check CPU power settings in BIOS.
Make sure, they correspond to Intel recommended baseline values.
ICCMAX 249A
PL1 125W
PL2 188W

Intel (again) Addresses Instability in 13th and 14th Gen Core i5/i7 CPUs with New Microcode

Intel once again has announced new measures to address instability issues found in some 13th and 14th Gen Core “Raptor Lake” processors, specifically targeting Core i5 and i7 models.

www.guru3d.com

It will drop from 320A to 245A lowering the heat.
If that is still too much for your cooler to handle then go even lower to the baseline which will drop the power draw to 188W maximum.
If you still get thermal throttling then your cooling is crap or it is not properly setup.

 

[SkyNetRising]

Can you please explain the settings to look for in the BIOS which you mentioned? I'm not very tech-savvy.

Show screenshot from BIOS
Tweaker/Advanced CPU Settings

 

[p1xel8or]

I'm away from my PC at the moment, will post BIOS screenshots after I get back. What about IA AC Load Line and IA CEP? Saw a post on reddit about setting the first to 0.5 and IA CEP to disabled.

 

[JayGau]

I have read all the comments and not a single time did you post your CPU temperature. The stress test clearly says your CPU is throttling, so it's an overheating problem.

Monitor your CPU temp and post results here. I personally have my CPU temp constantly displayed on both the top of my keyboard and my CPU cooler. I want to make sure I can see it quickly at anytime without any efforts. It's mind-blowing that someone with thermal throttling issues doesn't even look at it.

I don't know why Intel said you have stability issues. It's clearly a temperature problem according to your stress test. A good AIO should be able to cool down a 13900k at default settings without any problems. You might have a bad cooler, bad pump/fan settings or bad installation. But first of all (and before switching Intel default mode or modifying anything) monitor your CPU temp (idle, light load and heavy load).

And since you experience software crashes you should also monitor the GPU, drives and RAM temperatures. If you have a bad airflow and everything is running hot in the case crashes can definitely occur.

 

[TerryLaze]

I don't know why Intel said you have stability issues. It's clearly a temperature problem according to your stress test.

Probably company guide line, don't give tech tubers any reason to make videos about how intel doesn't replace CPUs that where harmed by the issues, even if it has nothing to do with the issues.

 

[p1xel8or]

I have read all the comments and not a single time did you post your CPU temperature. The stress test clearly says your CPU is throttling, so it's an overheating problem.

Monitor your CPU temp and post results here. I personally have my CPU temp constantly displayed on both the top of my keyboard and my CPU cooler. I want to make sure I can see it quickly at anytime without any efforts. It's mind-blowing that someone with thermal throttling issues doesn't even look at it.

I don't know why Intel said you have stability issues. It's clearly a temperature problem according to your stress test. A good AIO should be able to cool down a 13900k at default settings without any problems. You might have a bad cooler, bad pump/fan settings or bad installation. But first of all (and before switching Intel default mode or modifying anything) monitor your CPU temp (idle, light load and heavy load).

And since you experience software crashes you should also monitor the GPU, drives and RAM temperatures. If you have a bad airflow and everything is running hot in the case crashes can definitely occur.

I've been a console guy my entire life, I didn't even know what thermal throttling was until Intel got in touch with me and I had to look it up online.

Can you please explain what constitutes as "light load" and "heavy load"? I imagine running the Cyberpunk benchmark would fall into heavy load, but what about light load? Playing videos, general browsing, etc?

 

[JayGau]

I've been a console guy my entire life, I didn't even know what thermal throttling was until Intel got in touch with me and I had to look it up online.

Can you please explain what constitutes as "light load" and "heavy load"? I imagine running the Cyberpunk benchmark would fall into heavy load, but what about light load? Playing videos, general browsing, etc?

A light load is anything that doesn't require a lot of CPU usage, like running a web browser and visiting some websites for example. If you launch Chrome or Firefox the CPU should get lightly loaded and the temperature should go up a little, like 50c, for a few seconds and go back down once your browser window is up and loaded. If the CPU goes really hot for such light tasks, like 70c, there is likely a cooling issue.

An heavy load can be achieved with a stress test that loads all the cores to 100%. I like to use AIDA64 for this since it also can load the memory, but you can use the one you showed in your original post and see what temperature your CPU reaches when it starts throttling, how long it takes to reach it and how long it takes to cool down once you stop the test. Cyberpunk benchmark would be more like a medium CPU load since the game doesn't use all the cores, but it would be an heavy GPU load (also useful to test GPU temp).

edit: I didn't want to be mean, sorry if it felt like that. It's just that the CPU temp is the first information that should have been provided here and for some reason, after 16 posts on this thread it was still a total unknown.

 

[p1xel8or]

A light load is anything that doesn't require a lot of CPU usage, like running a web browser and visiting some websites for example. If you launch Chrome or Firefox the CPU should get lightly loaded and the temperature should go up a little, like 50c, for a few seconds and go back down once your browser window is up and loaded. If the CPU goes really hot for such light tasks, like 70c, there is likely a cooling issue.

An heavy load can be achieved with a stress test that loads all the cores to 100%. I like to use AIDA64 for this since it also can load the memory, but you can use the one you showed in your original post and see what temperature your CPU reaches when it starts throttling, how long it takes to reach it and how long it takes to cool down once you stop the test. Cyberpunk benchmark would be more like a medium CPU load since the game doesn't use all the cores, but it would be an heavy GPU load (also useful to test GPU temp).

edit: I didn't want to be mean, sorry if it felt like that. It's just that the CPU temp is the first information that should have been provided here and for some reason, after 16 posts on this thread it was still a total unknown.

Thanks for the clarification! I'm away from my PC atm, will update with the numbers tomorrow. Also I know my AIO display can show me the CPU temp results, but what about GPU temps? Which software would you recommend for that?

 

[JayGau]

Thanks for the clarification! I'm away from my PC atm, will update with the numbers tomorrow. Also I know my AIO display can show me the CPU temp results, but what about GPU temps? Which software would you recommend for that?

If you want to be able to monitor really everything (even RAM and drives) use HWiNFO. It looks scary at the beginning but that's the best monitoring tool for any PC users.

 

[p1xel8or]

Alright, I'm back with the CPU numbers. Please note everything is in Celsius.

Method I used - Start a timer for 10 minutes. Record the temp at the start of the timer, then record the temperature every minute.

Idle Temps - 33, 32, 35, 33, 35, 34, 55, 41, 34, 38, 38.
Average - 37 C.

Light Load (5 tabs open. One tab was playing a YouTube video at 4K.) - 33, 39, 42, 39, 34, 36, 37, 39, 35, 35, 36
Average - 37 C.

Stress Test (Intel XTU, CPU Stress Test for 10 minutes) - 68, 77, 80, 92, 93, 94, 90, 93, 90, 97, 97.
Average - 88 C.

During the stress test, it definitely reached the danger zone of 99 C two times, but quickly dropped down to 81-ish C. I'm assuming that's normal behaviour? @JayGau

Edit: If you're interested, here's a picture of the graph during the stress test.

 

[JayGau]

Alright, I'm back with the CPU numbers. Please note everything is in Celsius.

Method I used - Start a timer for 10 minutes. Record the temp at the start of the timer, then record the temperature every minute.

Idle Temps - 33, 32, 35, 33, 35, 34, 55, 41, 34, 38, 38.
Average - 37 C.

Light Load (5 tabs open. One tab was playing a YouTube video at 4K.) - 33, 39, 42, 39, 34, 36, 37, 39, 35, 35, 36
Average - 37 C.

Stress Test (Intel XTU, CPU Stress Test for 10 minutes) - 68, 77, 80, 92, 93, 94, 90, 93, 90, 97, 97.
Average - 88 C.

During the stress test, it definitely reached the danger zone of 99 C two times, but quickly dropped down to 81-ish C. I'm assuming that's normal behaviour? @JayGau

Edit: If you're interested, here's a picture of the graph during the stress test.

It's not as bad as I expected, but still not ideal. When the CPU reaches 99c it slows down itself to not reach 100c and above. It's why it suddenly goes down to 80c. This is the thermal throttling. But at least the temps are good at low CPU usage.

What are the temperatures (CPU and GPU) when you are gaming? The games that are crashing I mean. You could now also change the Intel default setting to performance instead of extreme and see if still throttles during the stress test.

What is you CPU cooler by the way (brand and model)?

 

[TerryLaze]

You could now also change the Intel default setting to performance instead of extreme and see if still throttles during the stress test.

What he should do is to measure clocks without changing anything so he can see how much throttling is going on first, if it barely drops clocks then there is no reason to do anything.
The CPU is made to reach 100 the question is if it reaches the performance it should be reaching at 100.