Is there a Z68 version withOUT on-board graphic

alecela

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I guess, as a hardcore gamer, on-board graphics is big no-no. As such, I wonder if Z68 is truly a chipset for enthusiasts, is there a version WITHOUT the on-board graphic that we can look forward to?
 
The Z68 concerns I've had are to the following comparisons:

AMD 890FX Discrete GPS(s) only {P67} vs AMD 890GX {Z68} IGPU + Discrete GPS(s) ; Gamers always choose 890FX
The 890FX + Crossfire clearly outperforms the 890GX's IGPU + Crossfire.

The question is:
P67 SLI/CF vs Z68 SLI/CF ; Shared Bandwidth

What threw me for a loop has the GA-Z68X-UD7-B3 which completely ignores/circumvents the Z68 IGPU all together and a discrete GPU is required. If the Z68 chipset can 'somehow keep' the normally shared PCIe lane bandwidth from the GPU(s) then there's no disadvantaged to the Z68 vs P67, and you're left with the advantage(s). However, GA-Z68X-UD7-B3 without IGPU, as I understand it, Quick Sync won't work unless the processor's GPU is enabled...

@meddyliwr is a mental case. He's stuck on the 4-month old Building Chart, plus the Z68 rumor mills. Originally, the Z68 had IGPU + Single PCIe x16 shared, but can't get it through his skull that there are and have been so many contradicting articles it's impossible to update until the BENCHMARKS and MOBOS are available for review. He/She/It needs to produce their own Building Chart and place it here...and otherwise shut-up ;)

Most Z68's popping-up have IGPU like the ASUS P8Z68-V PRO, and MSI Z68A-GD80(B3), etc. Other rumors had Gigabytes 'Z68X' now changed to Z68, other rumors had Gigabyte quiting production of H67 & P67 which were exposed to be false. Unless the Z68 can add some value to Gaming Frame Rates -- what's the fuss about?! {I get Quick Sync -- most people don't care about it}

Guessing, Beta Building Chart:
 
Short answer nope, only the P67 is discrete graphics. The Z68 adds the ability to OC with improved Turbo Boost similar to that of the P67, but with onboard VGA like the H67.

Therefore, either get a P67 now or wait for the LGA 2011/X68 SB.

 

markmywords

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Alecela, the point of the Z68 motherboard chipset is to be able to use both the CPUs (central processing unit's, aka processor's) built-in GPU (graphics processing unit), a unique feature of the LGA 1155 Sandy Bridge processors and discrete GPU card(s), while being able to overclock your CPU by increasing your CPU clock multiplier and (I think) overclock your GPU (or was it system memory), as well.

Beyond the P67 chipset, the Z68 chipset makes it possible to use the CPU's built-in GPU for a big deal thing called Quick Sync.

With 3rd party Lucid Virtu software (which will hopefully be included with all Z68 boards (otherwise what's the point, really), you can use discrete GPU for gaming and built-in CPU's GPU for Quick Sync's superior video encoding/decoding (much faster and better than a discrete GPU could today), while saving power to boot, on the fly.

Motherboards in the past added "on-board video" directly on the motherboard, separate from the CPU. Sometimes they were a pain to deactivate in the BIOS and would interfere with discrete video cards, which enthusiasts would tend to purchase and install separately anyway.

Sandy Bridge "on-board video" is different and is really on-CPU video. Not the best gaming option, but unmatched right now for video encoding/decoding. Video editors will benefit greatly from it. It's fast and doesn't change the final output video like nVidia's CUDA- and ATI's Stream-accelerated discrete GPU processing does.

So in that sense, Z68 is the ultimate enthusiast chipset for LGA1155, and the one I'm waiting for, which should be out sometime in May 2011. I just hope the boards that come out aren't stripped and/or buggy. I only use 1 discrete GPU (as opposed to SLI or Crossfire), but I do like my motherboards to be capable and reliable.

If you don't want an LGA 1155-compatible motherboard to have these on-board video connections, use a board with the P67 chipset (B3 revision). There aren't as many to choose from right now due to the supply still catching up with demand after the recall and correction of the SATA II problem with the chipsets, but technically the P67 boards are out and on sale already.

Your other option would be to wait for the LGA 2011 processors/motherboards coming out towards the end of the year 2011. It depends on how soon you want to do the build.
 

alecela

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Thanks. The oc potential of the 2600k & 2500k is what attracts me to a new rig. (ok, the old one is showing her age!) As such I was just wondering if it's worth waiting for the Z68 or should I just go ahead w/ the P67B3. So far I've heard of the extreme difficulty w/ oc'ing the FSB (sorry for the lack of better terms as they're constantly changing!) but I wonder if that's a limited by the chipset or the CPU itself. I guess I only have another month or so to find out.

LGA 2011/X68 is a bit of an unknown to me for my prime reason stated above...
 

alecela

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Thanks for the detailed response. Trouble is I have been building my own rig for over 10yrs now and never owned one w/ on-board graphics hence would be VERY reluctant to start this time. And I'm sure there're many enthaisiasts w/ similar mindsets like me. Having said that, I'm surprised to notice the general eager anticipation of Z68 chipset when I found out that it's got on-board graphics hence my original question.

As stated in my post above, the LGA 2011/X68 might be the right thing but it's just too far down the road and I'm itching to build! :)
 
I would go with the P67 unless you are looking at 3/4-WAY SLI/CF.

Correct BCLK OC is not a good idea with the non-K, OC the K is dirt simple: CPU Ratio eg 48 = 4.8GHz and a very small CPU Voltage increase. Frankly, to me it's too simple.

Go by the Building Chart and Enjoy :)
 

alecela

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This is really helpful & inspiring.
 
Most people are very use to the BCLK and CPU being methods to OC, and up until just a few months ago with SB + LGA 1155 they'd be right. The LGA 1155 moved a lot of 'chipset' functions to the CPU, and few understand that the 100 MHz 'BCLK' {Base Frequency}. Fewer yet understand how the PCIe and SATA functions and that the Base Frequency OC essentially corrupts those components.

Very few people know about the Z68 which is why I put together the Building Chart. I often put the 'X68' in quotes because Intel loves to rename their stuff and next to no one knows about the 'X79' and its specs.

Forums are meant to be helpful :)
 

markmywords

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Alecela, I know what you mean. I build every few years and it takes some research every time since computer trends change.

(I've even avoided using AS5 -Arctic Silver 5- between the CPU and heatsink, because I just don't want to have to reinstall a heatsink (in case AS5 won't last 5 years) until it's time to build a new system. I don't OC the CPU within an inch of it's life, anyway, though I got an A70 cooler now, so I may have to use AS5.)

I was reluctant about the built-in video when I heard about the 2nd gen i7, as well. But the more I learned about the brilliance of the Sandy Bridge (low temp, low power, 32nm architecture, FAAAAAST, high OC) and Quick Sync, the more excited I got about it (since I do video editing). It's built into the CPU so to me using "just" a P67 would be a wasted potential. And I wouldn't have to worry about disabling the built-in video- I'd be using it in a distributed computing way! Best of both worlds. I still think the idea of a 3rd party implementation of something so fundamental lacks a certain polish (for lack of a better word) and feels risky in terms of integrated computing, but the Virtu software appears very good and robust judging by tests so I'm willing to give it a try. It's actually quite a leap forward in computing. I do wish the software support for such distributed GPU processing between Quick Sync's built-in GPU and add-on card GPU would be built into the operating system, e.g. Windows 7 Service Pack 2, or better still into the BIOS/UEFI. But considering how much work gets put into anything like this, that's kind of an arrogant request, yet not unreasonable. Next step maybe if the right parties become motivated? In any case, the software I use for video editing (PD9U64) appears to support Quick Sync, as well, so I hope this works for me as well as I read and as well as I hope.

This may all be moot in the next generation of computing (for me likely around the year 2015) or even sooner, but right now, for my and many others' purposes, this appears to be the best bang-for-the-buck&volt by far!
 

meddyliwr

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hey jaquith
nice table you 'made up'
where'd you get the info?
re: Z68 motherboards - your table seems to contradict other 'expert' predictions
do you know something we all should know?
am i missing the point?
 
I've had other Experts look at it and scrutinize it many times, the benchmarks are what they are and are overlapping. You need to look carefully at the resolutions. The only thing that needs to be corrected is the X68 Q3-2011 -> Q4-2011 because of the P67/H67 fiasco.

Most people that are going to 3/4-WAY are running 5900± x 1080; running high-end GPUs 3/4-WAY for gaming on a std HD 1920 x 1080 is a waste. The H67's onboard have limited resolutions depending on the video port chosen, and the H67 shares both bandwidth and physical RAM.

If I said I wanted 3-WAY GTX 580 {$1,500} on a P55 then would it be smart to use 16 lanes or 32 lanes like the X58. The NF200 can have all sorts of PCIe lanes, but only 16 of them end up to the CPU.

The current Sandy Bridge uses more less the same architecture as the P55 with the PCIe now being processed on the CPU. The P67 is a consumer line and the soon to b released X68 and X79 are the extreme lines with a considerably more powerful Sandy Bridge 6/8-core & 6/8-HT or 6/6 or 8/8. Yep, with the recession Intel recently add a 4/4 to the LGA 2011 line.

RE: Z68 essentially is the 'same' as the H67 with then P67's CPU OC and improved Turbo Boost; in other words it's like a P67 with onboard GPU. Good source -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUgBNWtCsnk
 

meddyliwr

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all very fancy – but your table still doesn’t reflect what seem to be the facts

looking at the table re: Z68

cpu – non-K, opt, K
you’re recommending a K processor as optional? – why would anyone put a non-K in an overclocking motherboard? a Z68 without a K is (i’m guessing) would be functionally similar to an H67 (with a K or a non-K) – except the Z68 will (eventually) be able to use an SSD cache

OC – cpu only
are you sure? most other opinions seem to think memory and igpu (and therefore quick sync) will have some level of oc

PCIe – x16
maybe correct for the Z68 PCH but not necessarily for Z68 motherboards (see link below)- i know you have explained this somewhat in your last post buy describing the NF200 but your table is still wrong – you should at least clarify this with a statement similar to Note4

GPU – Onboard (Recommended use is the onboard GPU, but can run single discrete GPU.)
you seem to be alone with this recommendation as most people are suggesting using the igpu AND one (or more) discrete gpu(s) WITH LucidLogix Virtu – as Linus says at about 3m30s into the video you linked “… it has sort of the best of both worlds”

8:00 AM - February 28, 2011 by Chris Angelini “To say I’m excited about Virtu is an understatement.”
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lucidlogix-virtu-gpu-virtualization,2877-10.html

i think intel have made their position clear on this by announcing they will bundle Virtu with their first two Z68 boards

Z68 motherboards can support SLI and CrossFireX – maybe not x16/x16 but the table is still wrong

this link shows an unreleased motherboard which should do x16/x8 SLI or CrossFireX
http://news.softpedia.com/news/ASRock-Showcases-Intel-Z68-LGA-1155-Motherboard-at-CeBIT-2011-187196.shtml

Single GPU – Optional (Recommended use is the onboard GPU, but can run single discrete GPU.)
Max SLI/ CF
Max SLI
Max CF
see ‘PCIe’ and ‘GPU’ above

Ideal Use – Desktop/HTPC
if a Z68 was configured with a non-K cpu using the igpu this would probably be true
but with a K cpu and a discrete gpu (what the majority seem to be recommending) it’s ideal use list should include ‘Typical Gaming’ (although in some cases this setup might loose HTPC from the list)
if you add Virtu to the mix it might also get an ‘Extreme En/Decoder’ badge

Resolution – <= 1920 x 1080
when using the igpu

i’m not expecting an extreme gaming experience but i don’t think you are giving a full and true picture of what will be available from Z68 motherboards

i’m waiting to see how the Z68 boards evolve – if I do get one i definitely won’t be following your recommendations when i configure it

anyway getting back to the original question – why would you not want the igpu? – when combined with Virtu it gives the best of both worlds with (in theory) seamless switching between a discrete gpu and the igpu (quick sync en/decode with appropriate software) as necessary

maybe you want to switch off the igpu to maximize the TDP of the cpu but for me the benefits of quick sync outweigh the extra TDP headroom
 
 

TennisShoeMaster

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Lolwat? That doesn't even make any sense. Why, would you even make an o.c. board if you can't use it? Of course, that must be exactly why most of the z68 boards shown at CeBIT were modified p67 boards...

btw...the Maximus IV is only 8 + 3 phase so obviously it's a terrible choice for overclocking.... :lol: :lol:
 
^ :non: The Maximus IV uses a doubled up high/low pair; essentially it's 16 + 3. MSI uses 'SFC' which are ~30%+ more efficient, so an 8~10+ SFC works fine.

You can OC a 4+1 to 5GHz -- the question is how long before the Phases burn out. Example {Typical Phases}: 4 -> 80% load; 8 -> 40% load ; 12 -> 27% load, etc.

 

TennisShoeMaster

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Sorry I forgot to answer your question. The Z68 boards are what P67 boards should have been (o.c. plus on-board graphics) plus extras such as the new ssd caching feature (making it even better for gaming by using the ssd as a cache for the hdd). From what's been demonstrated so far it you will NOT be making any sacrifices at all by choosing it over the P67 boards. The price is even expected to be very close to the P67 pricing.

Honestly, from the way I see it, the Z68 boards will be replacing the P67 boards with the H67 boards staying as a lower/middle end alternative.

By the way, if your an "extreme gamer," then I guess you can wait to overpay for the "extreme" X68 boards coming out at the end of the year like the rest of the morons. Otherwise, It's way cheaper to update your pc every year or 2 on middling/high-end hardware such as the P67/Z68 platform then to splurge on "extreme" hardware that will give you barely-noticeable improvements.
 

TennisShoeMaster

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So? How does that change what I said?

You suggested that you need at least 12+ phases which is wrong when better quality components are available. "Essentially" the Maximus IV is NOT a 16+3 board but it behaves like one.

And what's up with all the unnecessary spreadsheets and pictures? Do you think it makes you look cooler?
 
Apparently, :lol: :lol: you think making LOL makes you 'smart' even when you're wrong. Frankly, the ASUS grid above was to stop nonsense Phase arguments at least on ASUS.

Actually, I never said anything about 'minimum' requirements for Phases; however, what I am/was saying is that most H67/Z68 have more limited Phases in comparison to the P67 counter parts. Absolutely, there are exceptions - the ORIGINAL context was the Building Chart.

You went off on some Phase tangent argument...
 

TennisShoeMaster

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Hahaha, are you mad? I put a little smiley in my post and your telling me how I think now?

Where am I wrong and where did I say I was smart?

What non-sense phase argument was I starting? I never said anything about the number of phases not being important if that's what you were referring to. I did however show that it's not the only number you should be looking at.

Where did I say you said anything about "minimum" (I didn't even use that word why are putting quotes on it?) requirements? I'm assuming your trying nitpick on my phrasing and I'm sorry you might feel the need to do that because you failed. I said you "suggested" needing a 12+ phase board. I did not say you said you plainly needed a 12+ phase board. I'm rather confused as to how you thought your little semantic arguments were going to work but if you try it again I'm just going to assume your retarded.

And your still wrong about "most" Z68 having a limited phase design in "comparison" to P67 boards as was my "ORIGINAL" context.
 
First, I know exactly what 'lolwat' means, and I didn't appreciate your tone. Next, you're trying to use the 'Maximus IV is only 8 + 3' as you example to make your point. I already pointed-out the flaw in that argument.

The crazy comes from your repeated parroted statements, and more oddly how you're tangling in my statements.

To answer your statement/'question', "Why, would you even make an o.c. board if you can't use it?"

My analogous answer is it's like entering a Camry against a race car in the Le Mans endurance race - you can push the pedal to the floor - it won't finish the race running top speed, flat out, for a prolonged time its engine {Phases} will be throwing rods {burnt out}. Simpler, the MOBOs with lower phases aren't meant to be run at extremes with extreme loads and with extreme heat longterm. As I said, you most certainly can run a 4+1 @ 5GHz don't be shocked after a year or so when you press the power button -- and nothing.

So @ 5GHz WITH 4+1 vs vs 8+2 vs 12+2 vs 24 {UD7} AND 5 years => you tell me which will be running and what MOBO's will be in the trash heap.

This is what happens when you push too hard, and a MOBO with limited Phases goes poof:
Subtle:

Big time:
 

meddyliwr

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are you trying to trick us with backyard science, photos and tables? (“pay no attention to that man behind the curtain”)

i’m not saying you know nothing – just you should stick to the facts and only comment on matters you are actually knowledgeable about

to everyone: PLEASE DO NOT GO BY THE BUILDING CHART – and don’t believe what i say either – do a bit of research and find the best fit for your needs

jaquith i suggest you re-read the thread title – the vast majority of people googling ‘Z68’ right now are going to be mislead by your table

something we agree on – but they need to be factual to be helpful

so you’re a self proclaimed ‘Expert’?
i found a previous post of yours from a couple of months ago with the same table – it attracted one reply – hardly scrutinisation and definitely no resounding endorsements for your recommendations
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/285590-30-tomshardware

what benchmarks? do you have benchmarks for the Z68 and the X68?! please link to them

there’s no clear or concise argument here
this isn’t a thread about the best sli/cfx setup – your table shows ‘Max SLI/CF’ for the Z68 as ‘NA’ – that’s incorrect and could mislead or confuse people – i would fully endorse you saying ‘Not Recommended (NR)’ if that was your opinion but facts are facts

how does this information relate to my claim that your table is incorrect regarding the Z68? firstly i have concerns that your table is not factual – secondly you keep comparing the Z68 ‘consumer’ with the X68 ‘extreme’ – can we keep to Z68 vs P67 vs H67

lolwat! are you sure?

i prefer to look at the Z68 as a P67 + QuickSync (and ssd caching) – who’s glass is half full?
by the way Turbo Boost is controlled by the PCU which is on the same die as the cpu – it has nothing to do with the pch/chipset or motherboard

lolwat! you really don’t “’Get it’”

the number of phases has nothing to do with the pch/chipset – it’s up to the motherboard designers / marketeers to decide the number of phases

how do you know how many phases will be included on motherboards that haven’t been released yet (Z68)? what makes you think people designing Z68 boards would use a similar vrm design to a H67? why wouldn’t they use a similar vrm design to a P67? – you have NO WAY of knowing any of these things

now for a lesson on phases – you’ll be surprised at how little you really do know

well designed multiple phase vrm’s produce voltages that are fast reacting, clean and stable – this is a good thing

with multi-phase vrm’s the power is distributed across more ‘power transistors’

let’s look at a non-real world example and make the numbers simple for clarity

V = 10V; I = 1A; P = V x I = 10W

1 phase – the power transistors must rated to handle 10W
10 phases – the power transistors in each phase must be rated to handle 1W

some over-engineering headroom is built in and then a transistor package is chosen which is the closest fit (and cost) to our requirements

1 phase – we choose 20W transistors – headroom = 10W
10 phases – we choose 1.5W transistors – total headroom = 5W

which one should produce more stable voltages? the 10 phase vrm
which one is more likely to pop a transistor especially when you oc / over-volt? again it’s the 10 phase vrm

it’s the design of the vrm that counts not the number of phases

people who oc / over volt must actually understand what they are doing and use their motherboard within its specified limits

this link might help you understand a little but more
http://www.improbableinsights.com/2009/08/28/do-i-need-32-phase-power-on-my-motherboard/

Z68 + Virtu means the igpu isn’t used for gaming – a new version of Virtu can use the discrete gpu as default and only the igpu when ‘QuickSync enabled’ software is running – didn’t you know discrete gpu’s are very good for gaming?

are you implying the only reason to overclock is for gaming? (and benchmarks?)

i don’t know – you tell me, ‘Expert’

you seem to be confused – you are replying to a quote from me – i was trying to point out that with a Z68 motherboard a K (2500K or 2600K) would be a better choice than a your recommendation of a non-K (2500 or 2600) – this is because i believe a modest 24/7 overclock would be beneficial and the price difference isn’t prohibitive – it’s also a waste putting a non-K on a Z68 and you’d be better with a H67 (unless the SSD cache is a deal clincher for you) – you however have missed the point and shot off at a tangent about HT which is totally irrelevant

so we agree the igpu can be overclocked – why isn’t that in your table?

lol – your table is ‘meant’ to be clear and factual

the information is a little bit technical in nature so i’m not surprised you are confused – the link shows an unreleased Z68 motherboard with “three PCI Express x16 slots, dual PCI-E x1 slots as well as a pair of regular PCI slots. Of the three PCI Express x16 slots available, only the first one works in x16 mode, the second running in x8 mode while the third has only four PCI-E lanes routed to it.” – essentially it is evidence your table is wrong

it might be limited but it is there so why doesn’t your table show that?
if the P67/H67/Z68 all have the same limitations why are the table entries different?

power saving might be where Virtu originated but since Intel couldn’t provide gpu switching in hardware they invested in LucidLogix and Virtu found a niche and evolved – currently Virtu can use the discrete gpu as default so YOU would probably have to be stupid enough run ‘QuickSync enabled’ software whilst running a game to encounter any problems

still no clear or concise argument – how does this make the P67 pch any better than the Z68 pch? if they are the same why does your table show them as being different?


hero…

…to zero…

so Linus is only a ‘good source’ when he agrees with you? – are you implying his ‘expert’ opinion is sullied buy the lure of hard cash? are you saying he’s an advocate not an expert? are you saying Linus is not impartial!?? omg! (tongue in cheek)
and no, i would not pay you for your opinion


is this the clear statement you are refering to? hardly ‘clear’ now is it?

as i stated (maybe not clearly enough for you) –
igpu + discrete gpu + Virtu (with the discrete gpu as default) = you don’t use the igpu for gaming and you are not limited by the video connectors on the motherboard
you seem to be having difficulty grasping this concept – try searching Tom’s Hardware for ‘virtu’ and you’ll find some good reviews

i think you need to do a little more research on the subject and stop parading yourself as an ‘Expert’ on subjects you clearly have little knowledge of

blah blah blah – read the thread title – it’s not an ‘extreme gamers’ thread
yes i do “Get it” and i am NOT suggesting the Z68 will be an extreme gaming platform – i’m referring to your comparision of the Z68 to the P67 – do you ‘Get it’?
you still haven’t addressed the issue that your table is incorrect
please tell me why a P67 is better than a Z68 in these regards

again – the number of phases is relevant to oc because it provides ‘cleaner’ power rails – it is not directly relevant to whether a phase will ‘burn out’

depends on the power rating of the components not the number of phases

where did the 5GHz figure come from? most 24/7 oc’ers don’t expect that frequency

it depends on power handling capabilities of the components used and if the user has the intelligence to use the board within its specified limits
oh – and are you suggesting that an extreme gamer / extreme oc’er will be using the same motherboard in 5 years time? i very much doubt that

correction – this is what happens when someone uses a motherboard outside of it’s specified limits regardless of the number of vrm phases

sorry to everyone about the length of this post but i felt the information needed to be represented more clearly and factually

everyone out there please keep in mind when you are reading forum posts that not all ‘Experts’ are actually experts
 

SuperCruz

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If you are not looking for the on-board graphics, the only reason for Z68 would be quick Cache. (IMO) Quick cache is only good if you have a small 60-80G SSD. If you have a bigger SSD, just load the OS on in and it will way outperform. It seems like SSD cahce is a gimmick. Just go P67, Z68 is probably gonna be delayed and more expensive for functionality you don't want.
 
Q = Title "Is there a Z68 version withOUT on-board graphic"
ANS = No, defeats the purpose of the Z68. The Z68 is what the H67 should have been from day 1. Lately Intel seems to be 'Chipset happy' by producing so many overlapping Chipsets it bares asking the question 'why?'


Z68 Pros w/Caveats:
* Quick Sync ; BUT currently the support is limited, and your encoding App MUST support that feature or have a plug-in available. Last I looked H.264/AVC {MPEG-4} and MPEG-2 only were supported. http://www.intel.com/technology/quicksync/index.htm
* Intel’s SSD caching technology ; adds 0~5MB/s± on dinky SSD's 40GB or smaller which are more aggravation than an asset. Unless you can fit both your OS + ALL Apps on an SSD don't bother buying. My assumption is the Z68 sucks up 32MB+ of physical RAM for the cache {BIOS level} in creasing the HW Reserved. Setting it up properly is a pain.
* 16 Lanes are available, but share bandwidth with the IGPU which inhibits frame rates; the question is by how much.

I have seen rumors of 2-WAY CF/SLI, 10+2 Phase MOBO based upon the Z68.

My experience is the IGPU acts like a leach to discrete GPU MOBOs, and in the 'past' this negates some performance. So until there's overlapping benchmarks available no one knows the full affect.

Therefore, if the 'Goal' is 'Gaming' then every review/reviewer I've read stated the same as I have above - Gaming and mixed use get the P67 when using discrete GPU(s). Encoding via Quick Sync or 'Desktop' usage being the primary use get the Z68.
 

Do you know how cRaZy your reply is!? Like a monkey throwing his poop around in a cage. :pt1cable:

I'm not wasting my time nor breath replying to your crazy OCD nonsense! :hello:
 

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