Jumping through holes carrying boulders, and other things

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I just returned to human form after being a storm giant. As an
experiment when I was a giant, I started picking up boulders and walking
around with them. I went over to a hole in the floor, "There is a gaping
hole under you. --More-- You don't fit". That figures, for a giant. Then
I pressed ">". "You jump through the hole" -- now, that *doesn't*
figure. I was carrying like 10 boulders, normally just one of them would
have plugged the hole. At the very least, I should have gotten "You
don't fit", or perhaps more appropriately a YASD or something like "You
try to jump through a hole carrying 10 boulders. --More-- The first
boulder plugs the hole. --More-- Your lower body is stuck in solid rock."

I started this game just to do experiments like this, doing stuff I have
never tried before. Right away the RNG gave me a wand of wishing and two
magic lamps. Great, now I could get the experiments going that much quicker.

I tried pudding farming for the first time -- cool. After a looong
while, I managed to reduce their numbers down to just one black pudding
again. I thought they had been too slow and too weak, so I decided to
beef them up a bit. Zapped wand of speed on remaining black pudding and
whacked it with rustproof -3 knife. Sure enough, both clones were
"fast". Killed off one of them. Then I zapped invisibility as well, just
to be evil, in case the level ever turned into a ghost level. I started
wondering if I could level it up as well, for more efficient offerings.
A pet will level up automatically, I thought, so I promptly charmed my
remaining pudding. Then a thought struck, what if clones were tame
too... pets make poor sacrifices. Whack -- two tame black puddings.
Grief! Well, I guessed I could leave them and come back when they had
turned feral, but not until they had leveled up some. I invited some
monsters for them to play with, and they would start to bite them, but
they did 0 points of damage, therefore aquiring no experience (damn it,
they had done damage to *me*, at AC -35, why not an unarmored gnome).
Before long they died, and I never found out how I should have behaved
to make them gain levels.

Being bored, I decided to say hello to Demogorgon. I have never met him
before and I was wondering how much trouble he could really be for my
accomplished character. Before I decided on this I had already disposed
of Jubilex, that left only Orcus to help me. I beat Orcus until he
escaped upstears, followed him up and promptly teleported to the
upstears where I burned Elbereth. I then started waiting around for
Orcus to do his bit. It took an awful long time, but eventually he
summoned Yeenoghu so I let them both hang around. Then one turn a nasty
black dragon was summoned and disintegrated Orcus. Some other monster
quickly picked up Orcus' wand of death and the death ray passed me and
hit Yeenoghu. Sigh. Elusive guy, that Demogorgon.

What now? From the early sacrificing and wishing I am so strong I can
easily ascend, but I want to try more cool stuff. Other than "Gehennom
ascii graphics", any other things worth doing? I don't have the patience
of an extinctionist. OTOH, I have 4 wishes left, in case the proposed
actions require specific items.

-Roar
 
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Roar Lauritzsen wrote:
>
> Being bored, I decided to say hello to Demogorgon. I have never met
him
> before and I was wondering how much trouble he could really be for my

> accomplished character. Before I decided on this I had already
disposed
> of Jubilex, that left only Orcus to help me. I beat Orcus until he
> escaped upstears, followed him up and promptly teleported to the
> upstears where I burned Elbereth. I then started waiting around for
> Orcus to do his bit. It took an awful long time, but eventually he
> summoned Yeenoghu so I let them both hang around. Then one turn a
nasty
> black dragon was summoned and disintegrated Orcus. Some other monster

> quickly picked up Orcus' wand of death and the death ray passed me
and
> hit Yeenoghu. Sigh. Elusive guy, that Demogorgon.
>

Do you mean to say the death ray killed Yeenoghu? I thought the game
considered demons dead or non-living, with the exception of 2 Riders.
 
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Roar Lauritzsen wrote:
> I started this game just to do experiments like this, doing stuff I have
> never tried before. Right away the RNG gave me a wand of wishing and two
> magic lamps. Great, now I could get the experiments going that much
> quicker.
If you wanted to do experiments, why not use wizard mode?
 
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:46:29 GMT, BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Roar Lauritzsen wrote:
>> I started this game just to do experiments like this, doing stuff I have
>> never tried before. Right away the RNG gave me a wand of wishing and two
>> magic lamps. Great, now I could get the experiments going that much
>> quicker.
>If you wanted to do experiments, why not use wizard mode?

Wizard mode gives slightly differnt results for experiments. For example,
it gives much higher quality items when wishing for them.
 
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Raymond Martineau wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:46:29 GMT, BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Roar Lauritzsen wrote:
>>
>>>I started this game just to do experiments like this, doing stuff I have
>>>never tried before. Right away the RNG gave me a wand of wishing and two
>>>magic lamps. Great, now I could get the experiments going that much
>>>quicker.
>>
>>If you wanted to do experiments, why not use wizard mode?
>
>
> Wizard mode gives slightly differnt results for experiments. For example,
> it gives much higher quality items when wishing for them.
Hmm, I forgot about that. Perhaps in wizard mode, the ^W command should
keep this behaviour, but wishes from other sources would behave
normally. So you could wish for a blessed magic lamp, then #rub it to
get a normal wish.
 
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Speaking of holes, I wonder why they never included into the game that
you could see and enter the hole again in the ceiling?

tiny k

sorry about the OT, but I don't know how to reply and make it OT in
google. (work won't let me use normal newsreaders)
 
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BManx2000 wrote:
> Raymond Martineau wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:46:29 GMT, BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Roar Lauritzsen wrote:
>>>> I started this game just to do experiments like this, doing stuff I
>>>> have never tried before. Right away the RNG gave me a wand of
>>>> wishing and two magic lamps. Great, now I could get the experiments
>>>> going that much quicker.
>>>
>>> If you wanted to do experiments, why not use wizard mode?
>>
>> Wizard mode gives slightly differnt results for experiments. For example,
>> it gives much higher quality items when wishing for them.
>
> Hmm, I forgot about that. Perhaps in wizard mode, the ^W command should
> keep this behaviour, but wishes from other sources would behave
> normally. So you could wish for a blessed magic lamp, then #rub it to
> get a normal wish.

Wizard mode is not exciting and not entertaining -- success is
guaranteed. I am still *playing* NetHack, I'm just deliberately more
reckless and adventurous than usual. Having ascended a few times, that
is really not the goal (this time).
 
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Time Carrot wrote:
> Do you mean to say the death ray killed Yeenoghu? I thought the game
> considered demons dead or non-living, with the exception of 2 Riders.

I am not 100% sure, but that is how I remembered it. Thinking again,
maybe it was Yeenoghu that was disintegrated and Orcus just died of poor
health and stray missiles from other monsters. The thing is that within
a few turns they were both gone, and no monsters in this game are left
that can summon Demogorgon for me.
 
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On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:22:49 +0100, Roar Lauritzsen wrote:

> Time Carrot wrote:
>> Do you mean to say the death ray killed Yeenoghu? I thought the game
>> considered demons dead or non-living, with the exception of 2 Riders.
>
> I am not 100% sure, but that is how I remembered it. Thinking again,
> maybe it was Yeenoghu that was disintegrated and Orcus just died of poor
> health and stray missiles from other monsters. The thing is that within
> a few turns they were both gone, and no monsters in this game are left
> that can summon Demogorgon for me.

AFAIK Rodney and Moloch (when you attack his/her/its high priest) can.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
 
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Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> wrote:
>AFAIK Rodney and Moloch (when you attack his/her/its high priest) can.

In Gehennom, *any* wizardly monster capable of casting Summon Nasties
can potentially summon a demon prince/lord.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> wrote:
> >AFAIK Rodney and Moloch (when you attack his/her/its high priest) can.
>
> In Gehennom, *any* wizardly monster capable of casting Summon Nasties
> can potentially summon a demon prince/lord.

However, IIRC they stick to alignment. Lawful summons lawful etc..

Best,
Jakob
 
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Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>> In Gehennom, *any* wizardly monster capable of casting Summon Nasties
>> can potentially summon a demon prince/lord.
>
>However, IIRC they stick to alignment. Lawful summons lawful etc..

YDNRC, I'm afraid. Here's the relevant code fragment, from nasty() in
wizard.c:

if(!rn2(10) && Inhell) {
msummon((struct monst *) 0); /* summons like WoY */
count++;
}
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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In article <1109652188.194989.112060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
kdlittle88@yahoo.com says...
> Speaking of holes, I wonder why they never included into the game that
> you could see and enter the hole again in the ceiling?

I've been longing for this express elevator for a long time but
properly implemented it would make it too simple to get back up.
>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<< (while levitating or flying)


Eskimo

--
//------------------------------
//Remove tämä all the way to and including soomee to mail directly.
//Ascended:W,V (genopolywish),P(ill ath), T,K,H,S,B,C,P,W
(naked),Ro,Ra,A,W,almost pacifist A
//In progress:pAIN
 
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Roar Lauritzsen <roarl@pvv.RemoveThis.org> writes:

> Wizard mode is not exciting and not entertaining -- success is
> guaranteed.

And this is a significant problem if you are using the wizard mode to
check whether something is possible in normal game.
 
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Tommi Syrjanen wrote:

> Roar Lauritzsen <roarl@pvv.RemoveThis.org> writes:
>
>> Wizard mode is not exciting and not entertaining -- success is
>> guaranteed.
>
> And this is a significant problem if you are using the wizard mode to
> check whether something is possible in normal game.

That's what explore mode is for.

Raisse, killed by a magical explosion

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Because that would haave more implications: for
> example, a hole in the floor would have to be in
> exactly the same position in relation to the
> downstairs as the up hole one floor below would
> have to be in relation to the upstairs.

Well, no.

You're assuming a geometric implementation choice,
and there's no reason to do that at all. Think of
the game Adventure, whose cells were arbitrarily
interconnected. NetHack up holes and down holes
as data structures could contain the cell X,Y
coordinate location of the other end, and be
otherwise arbitrarily crossmapped between the two
levels.

The really difficult problem areas are 1) that down
holes currently don't hit just one level, but one of
several, so that IIUC you and your pet can jump
through one after the other and not land on the same
levels, and 2) jumping through the same trapdoor,
even when you land on the same level, doesn't mean
you land on the same place on that level.

Fixing up either of those wouldn't be fun, would
impoverish current game behavior, and that mess, not
the non-existent issues matching up the geometries, is
probably the big code-killer for two-way trapdoors.

The "up" version second problem, though, could be
finessed the same way as the "down" version: you go
"up", but "to where" is random with each use, so
that "up" holes and "down" holes were not dependent
on the other being there, and not really "logically
connected" at all, behaving more like portals than
like stairs.

HTH

xanthian.
 
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lmfback wrote:
> In article <1109652188.194989.112060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> kdlittle88@yahoo.com says...
>> Speaking of holes, I wonder why they never included into the game
>> that you could see and enter the hole again in the ceiling?

> I've been longing for this express elevator for a long time but
> properly implemented it would make it too simple to get back up.

Because that would haave more implications: for example, a hole in the
floor would have to be in exactly the same position in relation to the
downstairs as the up hole one floor below would have to be in relation
to the upstairs. That would mean that random generation of the level
below wouldn't be possible anymore, so the level generation routines
would have to be rewritten completely.

You don't even want to consider pre-generated levels, like Medusa and
the like, and dropping down more than one level would also be much more
difficult to implement.

For example, if the downstairs were somewhere on the far left of a
level, and the upstairs on the next were on the right, there would
hardly be any overlap between the two levels. Now if I dug a hole in the
middle of the upper level, the hole in the ceiling on the next lower
level could no longer be generated on the map.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 

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In article <d018f8$j54$1@troll.powertech.no>,
Roar Lauritzsen <roarl@pvv.RemoveThis.org> wrote:

>Wizard mode is not exciting and not entertaining -- success is
>guaranteed. I am still *playing* NetHack, I'm just deliberately more
>reckless and adventurous than usual. Having ascended a few times, that
>is really not the goal (this time).

I thought the point of the discussion was the relevance of debug mode
testing of game behavior in specific situations. There are some things
that cannot be accurately represented in debug mode, because debug mode
is too generous, such as when granting wishes.
 

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In article <42247eb1$0$190$e4fe514c@dreader7.news.xs4all.nl>,
Raisse the Thaumaturge <raisse@valdyas.org> wrote:

>> And this is a significant problem if you are using the wizard mode to
>> check whether something is possible in normal game.
>
>That's what explore mode is for.

If you could switch from debug mode to explore mode, that would
make sense.
 
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Dylan O'Donnell wrote:

> fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:
>> If you could switch from debug mode to explore mode, that would
>> make sense.
>
> It's not hard to do that.
>
> #quit
> y q
> nethack -X

What if you want to, say, test something that involves being on the Astral
plane?

I like the idea of only having the special wiz-mode commands giving special
behaviour, so that you could get a "normal" wish by first doing ^W for a
wand of wishing, and then getting the normal wish from the wand.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover
 
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Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
> >Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >> In Gehennom, *any* wizardly monster capable of casting Summon Nasties
> >> can potentially summon a demon prince/lord.
> >
> >However, IIRC they stick to alignment. Lawful summons lawful etc..
>
> YDNRC, I'm afraid. Here's the relevant code fragment, from nasty() in
> wizard.c:

Of course, I confused it with the minion summoning. Wouldn't make
much sense to restrict nasty-summoning to alignment, anyway ;-).

Best,
Jakob
 
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fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:
> In article <42247eb1$0$190$e4fe514c@dreader7.news.xs4all.nl>,
> Raisse the Thaumaturge <raisse@valdyas.org> wrote:
>
> >> And this is a significant problem if you are using the wizard mode to
> >> check whether something is possible in normal game.
> >
> >That's what explore mode is for.
>
> If you could switch from debug mode to explore mode, that would
> make sense.

It's not hard to do that.

#quit
y q
nethack -X

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "You boil it in sawdust: you salt it in glue: / You condense it with :
: locusts and tape: / Still keeping one principal object in view -- / :
: To preserve its symmetrical shape." [ Lewis Carroll, "THotS" ] :
 
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RecRanger wrote:
> tiny k wrote:
> > Speaking of holes, I wonder why they never included into the game
> that
> > you could see and enter the hole again in the ceiling?
> >
> > tiny k
> >
> > sorry about the OT, but I don't know how to reply and make it OT in
> > google. (work won't let me use normal newsreaders)
>
> Click the link 'show options' link next to name & date. Click the
> 'Reply' link -- you can then change the subject line... as I have
> done... ;)

Very cool thanks!
 

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In article <86bra2m91j.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org>,
Dylan O'Donnell <psmith@spod-central.org> wrote:

>It's not hard to do that.
>
>#quit
>y q
>nethack -X

Uh, either I'm missing something, or you don't understand the issue:

How do you start in debug mode, level up, poly into an arch lich, go to
the castle, and then, switch to explore mode and work with that same
character in that scenario you set up?

Setting up a test scenario in Explore Mode is almost as difficult as
doing it for real in the regular game.

I didn't mean, start in Debug mode, do a bunch of stuff, and then QUIT
and START OVER in explore mode. What's the point of that?
 
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fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:
> In article <86bra2m91j.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org>,
> Dylan O'Donnell <psmith@spod-central.org> wrote:
>
> >It's not hard to do that.
> >
> >#quit
> >y q
> >nethack -X
>
> Uh, either I'm missing something, or you don't understand the issue:
>
> How do you start in debug mode, level up, poly into an arch lich, go to
> the castle, and then, switch to explore mode and work with that same
> character in that scenario you set up?

What do you want to do as an arch lich at the Castle that doesn't work
the same in wizmode?

> Setting up a test scenario in Explore Mode is almost as difficult as
> doing it for real in the regular game.

There are very few test scenarios that need to be in explore mode to
be valid.

(Knowing this in advance, admittedly, takes a little familiarity with
what changes wizmode _does_ make to the game; that's why I wrote a
document listing them.)

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "You boil it in sawdust: you salt it in glue: / You condense it with :
: locusts and tape: / Still keeping one principal object in view -- / :
: To preserve its symmetrical shape." [ Lewis Carroll, "THotS" ] :