Kamigawa cards questions

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Hi there,

I have here several questions regarding Champions and Betrayers of
Kamigawa cards. I appreciate if anybody could answer them.

1) During a game, I have an animated Stalking Stones and my opponent
casts Reweave targetting the Stones. I let it resolve and the first card
in my library is Ink-Eyes. Servant of Oni. We got into an argument here:
I said the Stone is a creature and land at the same time. However, he
argued it does not have "creature" text (as in Land Creature - Land).
Who is correct here?

Stalking Stones
Land
Tap: Add 1 Mana to your mana pool.
6 Mana: Stalking Stones becomes a 3/3 artifact creature that's still a
land. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

Rewave
Instant
5U
Target permanent's controller sacrifices it. That player reveals cards
from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a card that
shares a card type with the sacrificed permanent. The player puts that
card into play, then shuffles his or her library.
Splice onto Arcane 2UU

Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Legendary Creature - Rat Ninja
5/4
4BB
Ninjutsu 3BB (3BB, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put
this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.)
Whenever Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni deals combat damage to a player, you
may put target creature card from that player's graveyard into play
under your control.
1B: Regenerate Ink-Eyes.


2) If I have Mycosynth Lattice in play, can Shoal's alternate casting
cost be used at all? My assumption will be no, because the cards are
colorless and the Shoal's alternate casting cost requires a card of the
same colour to be pitched.

Mycosynth Lattice
Artifact
6
All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types.
All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are colorless.
Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color.

Shining Shoal
Instant - Arcane
XWW
You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player
instead.


3) I attack with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain and my opponent activates
Genju of the Falls so that he can use the Island to block my Samurai.
Assuming nobody plays anything else, after bushido and combat damage,
both the Island and the Samurai are removed from the game. However, what
about the Genju? I am certain it does not return to the my opponent's
hand (the Island didn't hit the graveyard), but where it ends up: the
graveyard or removed from the game?

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
WW
Creature - Fox Samauri
2/2
Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end
of turn.)
If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game
instead.

Genju of the Falls
U
Enchant Island
2: Enchanted Island becomes a 3/2 blue Spirit creature with flying until
end of turn. It's still a land.
When enchanted Island is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of
the Falls from your graveyard to your hand.


4) Assume I have two Kokusho, the Evening Star in my graveyard. I play
Goryo's Vengeance, splicing another Goryo's Vengeance, targetting both
Kokusho. As per legendary rule, both creature will end up in the
graveyard. However, will they be removed from the game at the end of
turn? I am a bit confused with Goryo's Vengeance text, as it says
"Remove 'it' from the game at the end of turn". Does 'it' refers to the
creature or the creature card? If 'it' refers to the creature, I guess
both Kokusho will stay in the graveyard, however, if it refers to the
creature card, I guess they will be removed from the game at the end of
turn.

Kokusho, the Evening Star
Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
4BB
5/5
Flying
When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.

Goryo's Vengeance
Instant - Arcane
1B
Return target legendary creature card from your graveyard to play. That
creature gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn.
Splice onto Arcane 2B (As you play an Arcane spell, you may reveal this
card from your hand and pay its splice cost. If you do, add this card's
effects to that spell.)


5) If a creature equiped with Umezawa's Jitte dies due to combat damage
(no First Strike here, just regular combat damage), will the Jitte get
the counters? I will assume yes, however, I am not 100% sure.

Thanks!
 
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:57:01 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have here several questions regarding Champions and Betrayers of
>Kamigawa cards. I appreciate if anybody could answer them.

We shall try, certainly.

>1) During a game, I have an animated Stalking Stones and my opponent
>casts Reweave targetting the Stones. I let it resolve and the first card
>in my library is Ink-Eyes. Servant of Oni. We got into an argument here:
>I said the Stone is a creature and land at the same time. However, he
>argued it does not have "creature" text (as in Land Creature - Land).
>Who is correct here?

He is more correct than you are. The Stones currently have -permanent type-
"land creature artifact"... but their -card type- is just "Land". They are
a land card that is currently being a land creature artifact permanent ...
and once they are put into your graveyard, the latter effect stops dead, and
they are just a land card again. The Ink-Eyes card in your library does not
share a card type with the Stalking Stones card. The revealing will continue
until you find a land card (or an artifact land card).

>2) If I have Mycosynth Lattice in play, can Shoal's alternate casting
>cost be used at all? My assumption will be no, because the cards are
>colorless and the Shoal's alternate casting cost requires a card of the
>same colour to be pitched.
>
>Mycosynth Lattice Artifact 6
>All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types.
>All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are colorless.
>Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color.
>
>Shining Shoal Instant - Arcane XWW
>You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
>the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
>The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
>creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player instead.

You are correct. Similarly, with Celestial Dawn out, you can't pay any of
the Shoals' alternate costs except the white one's; with Swirl the Mists
out, the Shoals all have the chosen word as their alternate cost's color
word, so all of them have the same color "alternate discard"; etc.

(You can still cast the Shoal normally, regardless, and Mycosynth Lattice
actually assists you greatly there...)

>3) I attack with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain and my opponent activates
>Genju of the Falls so that he can use the Island to block my Samurai.
>Assuming nobody plays anything else, after bushido and combat damage,
>both the Island and the Samurai are removed from the game. However, what
>about the Genju? I am certain it does not return to the my opponent's
>hand (the Island didn't hit the graveyard), but where it ends up: the
>graveyard or removed from the game?
>
>Samurai of the Pale Curtain WW Creature - Fox Samauri
>2/2 Bushido 1 (*) If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it
> from the game instead.
>Genju of the Falls U Enchant Island
> 2: Enchanted Island becomes a 3/2 blue Spirit creature with flying until end
> of turn. It's still a land. / When enchanted Island is put into a graveyard,
> you may return ~ from your graveyard to your hand.

Attack (2/2), activate & block (3/2), bushido triggers and resolves (3/3),
combat damage goes on the stack (3 from each), then resolves (3 to each),
both would be put into the graveyard by state-based effects BUT the Samurai's
replacement effect removes them both from the game instead; the Genju ability
thus does NOT trigger. Now state-based effects are checked again, and this
time you find a Genju floating in midair above the spot where the Island
creature was a moment ago. State-based effects put it into the graveyard...
and since there is not _currently_ a Samurai of the Pale Curtain in play,
it does go to owner's graveyard.

The key here is that the creatures both die at the same time, and the Genju
does NOT go to the graveyard at that exact time; it waits a moment until the
game finds its creature vanished out from under it, -then- goes to the
graveyard. Which is just long enough that the Samurai's effect is no longer
around to divert it to the RFG zone.

>4) Assume I have two Kokusho, the Evening Star in my graveyard. I play
>Goryo's Vengeance, splicing another Goryo's Vengeance, targetting both
>Kokusho. As per legendary rule, both creature will end up in the
>graveyard. However, will they be removed from the game at the end of
>turn?

No. You remove them only if they are still in play; in this case, neither one
can possibly 'still be in play' later this turn.

>I am a bit confused with Goryo's Vengeance text, as it says
>"Remove 'it' from the game at the end of turn". Does 'it' refers to the
>creature or the creature card?

It refers to the creature. GV won't do anything later on to the creature unless
it has stayed in play the whole time between the time GV put it into play and
the time the delayed triggered ability GV makes resolves, during end-of-turn
step. In this case, both creatures go POP right after the double-GV finishes
resolving, so neither is around later on anywhere the GV's delayed triggered
ability is looking for them.

>5) If a creature equiped with Umezawa's Jitte dies due to combat damage
>(no First Strike here, just regular combat damage), will the Jitte get
>the counters? I will assume yes, however, I am not 100% sure.

Yes. The creatures will deal combat damage at the same time; the Jitte
triggers. The equipped creature then dies from the "I have lethal damage on
me, ow" state-based effect. State-based effects are checked again, and the
Jitte finds it's not equipping anything, and becomes unattached. They are
checked _again_ and this time nothing happens; finally, the triggered ability
of the Jitte goes onto the stack. A bit later, that ability resolves, and
puts two charge counters on the Jitte.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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Francisco Ho wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I have here several questions regarding Champions and Betrayers of
> Kamigawa cards. I appreciate if anybody could answer them.
>
> 1) During a game, I have an animated Stalking Stones and my opponent
> casts Reweave targetting the Stones. I let it resolve and the first card
> in my library is Ink-Eyes. Servant of Oni. We got into an argument here:
> I said the Stone is a creature and land at the same time.

And you are right.

> However, he
> argued it does not have "creature" text (as in Land Creature - Land).

He is wrong. The card is not *printed* with "Land Creature", but it does
indeed have that text, because the card's ability added it. You get
your Ink-Eyes.

> Who is correct here?
>
> Stalking Stones
> Land
> Tap: Add 1 Mana to your mana pool.
> 6 Mana: Stalking Stones becomes a 3/3 artifact creature that's still a
> land. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
>
> Rewave
> Instant
> 5U
> Target permanent's controller sacrifices it. That player reveals cards
> from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a card that
> shares a card type with the sacrificed permanent. The player puts that
> card into play, then shuffles his or her library.
> Splice onto Arcane 2UU
>
> Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
> Legendary Creature - Rat Ninja
> 5/4
> 4BB
> Ninjutsu 3BB (3BB, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put
> this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.)
> Whenever Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni deals combat damage to a player, you
> may put target creature card from that player's graveyard into play
> under your control.
> 1B: Regenerate Ink-Eyes.
>
>
> 2) If I have Mycosynth Lattice in play, can Shoal's alternate casting
> cost be used at all? My assumption will be no, because the cards are
> colorless and the Shoal's alternate casting cost requires a card of the
> same colour to be pitched.

Correct, mostly. You have to pitch a white card; the color of the Shoal
itself is irrelevant (and in fact, with the Lattice in play, it is
colorless, too). Since the Lattice makes all the cards in your hand
colorless, none of them are white, and none of them can be pitched
to pay for the Shoal.
>
> Mycosynth Lattice
> Artifact
> 6
> All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types.
> All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are colorless.
> Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color.
>
> Shining Shoal
> Instant - Arcane
> XWW
> You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
> the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
> The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
> creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player
> instead.
>
>
> 3) I attack with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain and my opponent activates
> Genju of the Falls so that he can use the Island to block my Samurai.
> Assuming nobody plays anything else, after bushido and combat damage,
> both the Island and the Samurai are removed from the game. However, what
> about the Genju? I am certain it does not return to the my opponent's
> hand (the Island didn't hit the graveyard), but where it ends up: the
> graveyard or removed from the game?

The graveyard. It is placed there as a state-based effect because its
subject has gone away. State-based effects are checked *after* combat
damage is resolved, so the Samurai has finished dying and is not around
to remove the enchantment from the game.
>
> Samurai of the Pale Curtain
> WW
> Creature - Fox Samauri
> 2/2
> Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end
> of turn.)
> If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game
> instead.
>
> Genju of the Falls
> U
> Enchant Island
> 2: Enchanted Island becomes a 3/2 blue Spirit creature with flying until
> end of turn. It's still a land.
> When enchanted Island is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of
> the Falls from your graveyard to your hand.
>
>
> 4) Assume I have two Kokusho, the Evening Star in my graveyard. I play
> Goryo's Vengeance, splicing another Goryo's Vengeance, targetting both
> Kokusho. As per legendary rule, both creature will end up in the
> graveyard. However, will they be removed from the game at the end of
> turn?

No. Goryo is tracking a creature in play. If it leaves play, it
loses track of it.

> I am a bit confused with Goryo's Vengeance text, as it says
> "Remove 'it' from the game at the end of turn". Does 'it' refers to the
> creature or the creature card? If 'it' refers to the creature, I guess
> both Kokusho will stay in the graveyard, however, if it refers to the
> creature card, I guess they will be removed from the game at the end of
> turn.

"It" generally takes the most recent noun as its antecedent. The most
recent noun is "that creature", not "legendary creature card".
>
> Kokusho, the Evening Star
> Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
> 4BB
> 5/5
> Flying
> When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>
> Goryo's Vengeance
> Instant - Arcane
> 1B
> Return target legendary creature card from your graveyard to play. That
> creature gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn.
> Splice onto Arcane 2B (As you play an Arcane spell, you may reveal this
> card from your hand and pay its splice cost. If you do, add this card's
> effects to that spell.)
>
>
> 5) If a creature equiped with Umezawa's Jitte dies due to combat damage
> (no First Strike here, just regular combat damage), will the Jitte get
> the counters? I will assume yes, however, I am not 100% sure.

Yes. There is no reason why it shouldn't. The creature did damage, it
gets the counters.
>
> Thanks!

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> He is more correct than you are. The Stones currently have -permanent type-
> "land creature artifact"... but their -card type- is just "Land". They are
> a land card that is currently being a land creature artifact permanent ...
> and once they are put into your graveyard, the latter effect stops dead, and
> they are just a land card again. The Ink-Eyes card in your library does not
> share a card type with the Stalking Stones card. The revealing will continue
> until you find a land card (or an artifact land card).

John Carter seems to disagree with you.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc7
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc8
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 

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David DeLaney sez:
<<
> >1) During a game, I have an animated Stalking Stones and my opponent

> >casts Reweave targetting the Stones. I let it resolve and the first
card
> >in my library is Ink-Eyes. Servant of Oni. We got into an argument
here:
> >I said the Stone is a creature and land at the same time. However,
he
> >argued it does not have "creature" text (as in Land Creature -
Land).
> >Who is correct here?
>
> He is more correct than you are. The Stones currently have -permanent
type-
> "land creature artifact"... but their -card type- is just "Land".
They are
> a land card that is currently being a land creature artifact
permanent ...
> and once they are put into your graveyard, the latter effect stops
dead, and
> they are just a land card again. The Ink-Eyes card in your library
does not
> share a card type with the Stalking Stones card. The revealing will
continue
> until you find a land card (or an artifact land card).
>>

Ooh, and here I thought the opposite, but Reweave does say "card type".

Question: If that were just "shares a type" rather than "shares a card
type", would this be a "Last Known Information" problem, or would it
not affect Reweave at all? (I imagine it'd probably cause rules
headaches the other way, regardless...)
 
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Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>
>> He is more correct than you are. The Stones currently have -permanent type-
>> "land creature artifact"... but their -card type- is just "Land". They are
>> a land card that is currently being a land creature artifact permanent ...
>> and once they are put into your graveyard, the latter effect stops dead, and
>> they are just a land card again. The Ink-Eyes card in your library does not
>> share a card type with the Stalking Stones card. The revealing will continue
>> until you find a land card (or an artifact land card).
>
>John Carter seems to disagree with you.
>
>http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc7
>http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc8

Lemme go look... ...taking some time to pull up, what's up with that?

Q: When does Reweave check the card's type, during the sacrifice or in the
graveyard?

A: When Reweave resolves it uses the type(s) that the permanent had right
before it was sacrificed
[9/25/04]

Q: If I play Reweave on an animated Blinkmoth Nexus, do I get to choose the
card type or does Reweave stop when it finds a card that is or an artifact,
creature, or a land? --Tiago F.

A: You do not get to pick which type. An animated Nexus is a 1/1 artifact
creature land. Thus, that player will stop turning over cards once an artifact,
a creature, or a land is revealed.
[10/2/04]

I'll take this up with him; Reweave says "card type", not "permanent type".
And while we have a lot of stuff that can change your permanent's permanent
type, and an entire layer (4) devoted to such effects ... I can't think of
anything offhand that can change something's _card type_ other than perhaps
copy effects. And Magic, in general, tries to avoid entirely asking what the
-card type- of something in play is. Note that Reweave makes you sacrifice
the permanent -first-, and only then asks you to start matching its card type.
(And yes, LKI would still get you the card-type-in-play if its card type had
changed.) But I'll ask.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> And Magic, in general, tries to avoid entirely asking what the
> -card type- of something in play is.

Well, perhaps it beats trying to ask what the -permanent type- of the
card in the library is.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
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Jax <IlGreven@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ooh, and here I thought the opposite, but Reweave does say "card type".

That's what I'm going on - what it (and of course Oracle) actually says...

>Question: If that were just "shares a type" rather than "shares a card
>type", would this be a "Last Known Information" problem, or would it
>not affect Reweave at all? (I imagine it'd probably cause rules
>headaches the other way, regardless...)

I think in that case it turns into a LKI situation and you get John Carter's
answer - because all of the permanent types are -also- card types, I think,
so you can 'share' across the type line - that you'd stop at the first
artifact, land, or creature card you came to. But as I said, I'll ask.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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In news:xbFYd.46442$fc4.10178@edtnps89,
Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> rambled:
> Hi there,
>
> I have here several questions regarding Champions and Betrayers of
> Kamigawa cards. I appreciate if anybody could answer them.

I'll give it a go.

> 1) During a game, I have an animated Stalking Stones and my opponent
> casts Reweave targetting the Stones. I let it resolve and the first
> card in my library is Ink-Eyes. Servant of Oni. We got into an
> argument here: I said the Stone is a creature and land at the same
> time. However, he argued it does not have "creature" text (as in Land
> Creature - Land). Who is correct here?

I'll snip out card text, for brevity.

Short answer is, he's correct. Reweave specifically says "card type." While
the animated Stalking Stones, when in play, is a Creature Land, hence having
two types, the *card* Stalking Stones can only ever have one type: Land.
Hence, you stop "Reweaving" when you hit a land.

> 2) If I have Mycosynth Lattice in play, can Shoal's alternate casting
> cost be used at all? My assumption will be no, because the cards are
> colorless and the Shoal's alternate casting cost requires a card of
> the same colour to be pitched.

No, you can't use any of the Shoal's alternate casting costs. This is
because the cards in your hand cease to be red, white, blue, black, or
green. They become colorless. Mycosynth Lattice removes color from cards in
your hand, but it does not remove *color words* from cards in your hand. So
you'd still have to pitch an appropriately colored card to your Shoal.
However, if you wanted to hardcast said Shoal, you wouldn't have to pay the
colored portion of the casting cost, per se. You could pay it with
"colorless" mana, spending it as though it were, say, Red.

> 3) I attack with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain and my opponent
> activates Genju of the Falls so that he can use the Island to block
> my Samurai. Assuming nobody plays anything else, after bushido and
> combat damage, both the Island and the Samurai are removed from the
> game. However, what about the Genju? I am certain it does not return
> to the my opponent's hand (the Island didn't hit the graveyard), but
> where it ends up: the graveyard or removed from the game?

This one is tricky. I believe the answer is that the Genju should go to the
graveyard, but playing a draft on Magic Online yesterday, this exact
situation came up, and his Genju of the Fields was removed from the game (I
double blocked it). I didn't think anything of it at the time, but now that
you pose the question, I'm pretty sure it was an error on the game's part.
Here's what I think should happen.

Player A attacks with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Player B then animates
his Island. Once player B declares blocks, bushido triggers on the Samurai,
making it a 3/3. Assume nothing else, and each creature is dealt 3 damage.
Each get removed from the game by SotPC's replacement effect. Once the
Island is RFG'ed, the game sees that the Genju is in play, but not
enchanting anything. As this is "illegal" for a local enchantment, it is
destroyed as a state-based effect. Since there is no SotPC in play, it's
replacement effect doesn't work, and the Genju goes to the graveyard.

Funny thing about Magic Online - I'll see if I can find an email address for
someone there and find out if it's a bug or if that's how it actually works.

> 4) Assume I have two Kokusho, the Evening Star in my graveyard. I play
> Goryo's Vengeance, splicing another Goryo's Vengeance, targetting both
> Kokusho. As per legendary rule, both creature will end up in the
> graveyard. However, will they be removed from the game at the end of
> turn? I am a bit confused with Goryo's Vengeance text, as it says
> "Remove 'it' from the game at the end of turn". Does 'it' refers to
> the creature or the creature card? If 'it' refers to the creature, I
> guess both Kokusho will stay in the graveyard, however, if it refers
> to the creature card, I guess they will be removed from the game at
> the end of turn.

Nope, they don't get removed from the game. The "it" refers to the creature,
not the card. So, when the 2 Kokusho's hit the graveyard, they become "new"
versions of that card in that zone. The game has essentially lost track of
the "in play Kokushos", and found 2 "in the graveyard Kokushos", but never
assumes that they are the same creatures. So, since as far as the game is
concerned, they're two totally different creatures, it won't try to remove
them from the game. And you're free to bring them back next turn with more
Goryo's Vengeances. :)

> 5) If a creature equiped with Umezawa's Jitte dies due to combat
> damage (no First Strike here, just regular combat damage), will the
> Jitte get the counters? I will assume yes, however, I am not 100%
> sure.

Yep, the Jitte will get the counters. Since there's no first strike, the
creatures deal damage at the same time, which triggers the Jitte. Before the
Jitte goes on the stack, though, state-based effects are checked, and the
equipped creature (or both) die from lethal damage. Then the Jitte's ability
goes on the stack, because it has already been triggered. Once it's on the
stack, there's pretty much nothing anyone can do to stop it (excluding
Stifle and such), so it will get the two counters. Of course, the creature
is already dead at this point, so there's no way to save it by pumping it
with the newly added Jitte counters.

Hope that helps.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
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Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

>I'll snip out card text, for brevity.

Well, it can help to have it available to look at... For example, nitpickily:

>Short answer is, he's correct. Reweave specifically says "card type." While
>the animated Stalking Stones, when in play, is a Creature Land, hence having
>two types,

Three, actually: artifact creature land.

>the *card* Stalking Stones can only ever have one type: Land.
>Hence, you stop "Reweaving" when you hit a land.

(As noted before, I've passed the question on up to see where the confusion
might lie - with the card text, or with John's columns from last fall... the
FAQ for Champions was no help.)

>> 3) I attack with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain and my opponent
>> activates Genju of the Falls so that he can use the Island to block
>> my Samurai. Assuming nobody plays anything else, after bushido and
>> combat damage, both the Island and the Samurai are removed from the
>> game. However, what about the Genju? I am certain it does not return
>> to the my opponent's hand (the Island didn't hit the graveyard), but
>> where it ends up: the graveyard or removed from the game?
>
>This one is tricky. I believe the answer is that the Genju should go to the
>graveyard, but playing a draft on Magic Online yesterday, this exact
>situation came up, and his Genju of the Fields was removed from the game (I
>double blocked it). I didn't think anything of it at the time, but now that
>you pose the question, I'm pretty sure it was an error on the game's part.

It is. You may want to report it as a bug. In your case, the _Plains_ dies at
the same time as the Samurai, and its Genju-granted ability triggers; then the
Genju goes to the graveyard in a Samurai-less environment, from the second
round of checking state-based effects; then there's a third round which does
Nothing; then the Spirit Link ability goes on the stack.

>Here's what I think should happen.
>
>Player A attacks with a Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Player B then animates
>his Island. Once player B declares blocks, bushido triggers on the Samurai,
>making it a 3/3. Assume nothing else, and each creature is dealt 3 damage.
>Each get removed from the game by SotPC's replacement effect. Once the
>Island is RFG'ed, the game sees that the Genju is in play, but not
>enchanting anything. As this is "illegal" for a local enchantment, it is
>destroyed as a state-based effect. Since there is no SotPC in play, it's
>replacement effect doesn't work, and the Genju goes to the graveyard.

Correct.

>Funny thing about Magic Online - I'll see if I can find an email address for
>someone there and find out if it's a bug or if that's how it actually works.

The latest Magic Online Known Issues article says that mtgobugs@wizards.com
is the address to report this sort of thing to, and didn't have it on the
list of known issues.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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David DeLaney wrote:
>
> I'll take this up with him; Reweave says "card type", not "permanent type".
> And while we have a lot of stuff that can change your permanent's permanent
> type, and an entire layer (4) devoted to such effects ... I can't think of
> anything offhand that can change something's _card type_ other than perhaps
> copy effects. And Magic, in general, tries to avoid entirely asking what the
> -card type- of something in play is. Note that Reweave makes you sacrifice
> the permanent -first-, and only then asks you to start matching its card type.
> (And yes, LKI would still get you the card-type-in-play if its card type had
> changed.) But I'll ask.


Thanks again for all the replies. By any chance, were you able to check
with Mr. Carter if it is the first land or first
creature-or-artifact-or-land?

Thanks!
 

Maz

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Actually there is no such thing as a "permanent type" or a "card type".
The rules just mention "Types" (Tokens although not being cards have a type
/ types).

Permanents of course do have types but a "permanent´s type" ist still not
different in any way from a "card´s type".
Reason: All permanents are still cards !
>205.2. Types

>205.2a The types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, and
>sorcery.

>205.2b. Some objects can have more than one type (for example, an artifact
>creature). Such >objects satisfy the criteria for any effect that applies
>to any of their types.

The "card" in "card type" on reweave could (or rather should) be skipped,
but the rules are obvious here anyway.
 
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:13:57 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>>I'll take this up with him; Reweave says "card type", not "permanent type".
>>And while we have a lot of stuff that can change your permanent's permanent
>>type, and an entire layer (4) devoted to such effects ... I can't think of
>>anything offhand that can change something's _card type_ other than perhaps
>>copy effects. And Magic, in general, tries to avoid entirely asking what the
>>-card type- of something in play is. Note that Reweave makes you sacrifice
>>the permanent -first-, and only then asks you to start matching its card type.
>>(And yes, LKI would still get you the card-type-in-play if its card type had
>>changed.) But I'll ask.
>
>Thanks again for all the replies. By any chance, were you able to check
>with Mr. Carter if it is the first land or first creature-or-artifact-or-land?

Yep. He says the "type" is what should be being checked. "Card type" isn't
actually defined in the rulebook, I find - it's used twice, both times in
the same sentence talking about subtypes of types. Two cards use the phrase,
and one of them (Blood Oath) works well with it. Reweave, however, doesn't,
and wants to work as though it just said "type".

------

Further updates: It turns out that, some time around 6E coming out, it was
decided that the four cards I was looking at that include Orb of Dreams got
changed to be, yes, replacement effects, despite the cards' wordings using
"creatures", "lands", "artifacts", or "permanents", none of which the card
is yet at the time replacement effects for coming into play are applied. So
yes, Orb of Dreams doesn't put itself, or anything coming into play with it,
into play tapped; 419.1c is correctly worded, but the card wordings were never
changed or tweaked to be closer to current rulings, and that Led Me Wrong. It
turns out those four cards work -as though- they were worded

"Cards and tokens come into play tapped." (Orb of Dreams)
"Creature cards and tokens, artifact cards and tokens, and land cards and
tokens your opponents control come into play tapped." (Kismet, would be even
more accurate if it said "will come into play tapped".
"Artifact cards and tokens and land cards and tokens come into play tapped."
(Root Maze)
"Creature spells your opponents play come into play tapped." (Uphill Battle)

(Yes, Uphill Battle's different conceptually than the other three; it specifies
"play", so doesn't apply to tokens at all, or to creatures put into play by
other means, and there's a lovely interaction with copy cards' "This comes into
play as..." self-replacement that means it -does- only apply to copy cards that
are putting themselves into play "as creatures"...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:35:03 +0100, Maz <nospam@please.com> wrote:
>Actually there is no such thing as a "permanent type" or a "card type".
>The rules just mention "Types" (Tokens although not being cards have a type
>/ types).
>
>Permanents of course do have types but a "permanent´s type" ist still not
>different in any way from a "card´s type".
>Reason: All permanents are still cards !

Um, you may want to rethink that last reason. I know of dozens and dozens of
permanents that aren't cards. (Though your first sentence is indeed the
case, it turns out, and turns out to be the key to why John ruled as he did.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 

Maz

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David DeLaney schrieb:
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:35:03 +0100, Maz <nospam@please.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually there is no such thing as a "permanent type" or a "card type".
>>The rules just mention "Types" (Tokens although not being cards have a type
>>/ types).
>>
>>Permanents of course do have types but a "permanent´s type" ist still not
>>different in any way from a "card´s type".
>>Reason: All permanents are still cards !
>
>
> Um, you may want to rethink that last reason. I know of dozens and dozens of
> permanents that aren't cards. (Though your first sentence is indeed the
> case, it turns out, and turns out to be the key to why John ruled as he did.)
>
> Dave

Ok of course with the exception of tokens (I can´t think of any other
permanents that aren´t cards) :)

All cards even when they are permanents in play are still cards.
That should work now ;)

However i just noticed that the comp. rules indeed speak of "permanent
types" in Rule 213, which also alludes to the situation (though there
still is no definition for "card type").

214. Permanents


214.1. A permanent is a card or token in play. Permanents stay in play
unless moved to another zone by an effect or rule. There are four types
of permanents: artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands. Instant
and sorcery cards can’t come into play.

214.2. Permanent type is the type of a card or token that’s in play. A
nontoken permanent’s types, supertypes, and subtypes are the same as
those printed on its card. A token’s types, supertypes, and subtypes are
set by the spell or ability that created it.