Kill Switch question

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

If I have used my Kill Switch, and then my Untap step rolls around, do
my other artifacts untap along with the Kill Switch? Or is my Kill
Switch the only artifact that untaps?

--Brent M.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

B M <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote:

> If I have used my Kill Switch, and then my Untap step rolls around, do
> my other artifacts untap along with the Kill Switch? Or is my Kill
> Switch the only artifact that untaps?

Kill Switch
3
Artifact
2, T: Tap all other artifacts. They don't untap during their
controllers' untap steps as long as Kill Switch remains tapped.

302. Untap Step

302.2. Next the active player determines which permanents he or she
controls will untap. Then he or she untaps them all simultaneously (this
game action doesn't use the stack). Normally, all of a player's
permanents untap, but effects can keep one or more of a player's
permanents from untapping.

When you determine which of your permanents will untap, the Kill Switch
is still tapped. Those other artifacts will therefore not untap.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:30:54 -0600, B M <somebody@somewhere.com> wrote:
> If I have used my Kill Switch, and then my Untap step rolls around, do
>my other artifacts untap along with the Kill Switch? Or is my Kill
>Switch the only artifact that untaps?

Kill Switch 3 Artifact
2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They dont untap during their controller's
untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.

Your Kill Switch is the only one that untaps. Before anything untaps, there
is a check to see what will untap; it is at that time that you make choices
about "You may choose not to untap this during your untap step", for example.
At that time Kill Switch is tapped, so all other artifacts -that it tapped-
are marked as "won't untap". Then everything that's going to untap untaps,
which includes Kill Switch but not the artifacts its effect marked.

(And the moment it does untap the marking on those other artifacts goes
away, but it's a moment too late.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Your Kill Switch is the only one that untaps. Before anything untaps,
there
> is a check to see what will untap; it is at that time that you make
choices
> about "You may choose not to untap this during your untap step", for
example.
> At that time Kill Switch is tapped, so all other artifacts -that it
tapped-
> are marked as "won't untap". Then everything that's going to untap
untaps,
> which includes Kill Switch but not the artifacts its effect marked.

So, you can't tap a tapped permanent?

Peter
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser wrote:

>> Your Kill Switch is the only one that untaps. Before anything untaps,
> there
>> is a check to see what will untap; it is at that time that you make
> choices
>> about "You may choose not to untap this during your untap step", for
> example.
>> At that time Kill Switch is tapped, so all other artifacts -that it
> tapped-
>> are marked as "won't untap". Then everything that's going to untap
> untaps,
>> which includes Kill Switch but not the artifacts its effect marked.
>
> So, you can't tap a tapped permanent?
>
> Peter

No, when you activate Kill Switch, it marks all other artifacts in play
as "don't untap as long as Kill Switch is remains tapped", regardless of
whether they're already tapped or not. But that doesn't mean that by the
time the untap phase rolls around all the artifacts in play are necessarily
marked.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 6 Apr 2005 13:54:07 -0700, Risser <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Your Kill Switch is the only one that untaps. Before anything untaps, there
>> is a check to see what will untap; it is at that time that you make choices
>> about "You may choose not to untap this during your untap step", for example.
>> At that time Kill Switch is tapped, so all other artifacts -that it tapped-
>> are marked as "won't untap". Then everything that's going to untap untaps,
>> which includes Kill Switch but not the artifacts its effect marked.
>
>So, you can't tap a tapped permanent?

Huh? Where do you get that from what I wrote?

Oh, the 'that it tapped'. Change that to "that it affected"; it does try to
tap even the tap ones, but that part of its effect Has No Visible Effect. But
it ALSO sticks a sticky-note on all other artifacts "This doesn't untap during
its controller's untap step as long as I remain tapped", separate from trying
to tap them; even the ones that are already tapped get that sticky-note. So
they -all- don't untap, regardless of whether or not Kill Switch's effect
physically rotated them 90 degrees.

(Ones that weren't artifacts, for whatever reason, as the ability resolved
don't get the sticky-note, so will untap normally.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 3 Apr 2005 12:40:15 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>Kill Switch 3 Artifact
> 2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They dont untap during their controller's
> untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.

If an artifact was already tapped when this happens, does it get tagged?
IOW, can an effect tap something that is already tapped? Because of "All
other artifacts", I can't deduce it from what happens to the kill switch
and it's something I could imagine there being debate about. Or is it even
the case that "Tap all other artifacts" and [the tagging with] "They [all
other artifacts] don't untap[..]" are two separate events, ie, the first
can fail because they were already tapped but the second can still apply
to them?

Jasper
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
>>Kill Switch 3 Artifact
>> 2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They don't untap during their controller's
>> untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.
>
>If an artifact was already tapped when this happens, does it get tagged?

Yep. It doesn't say "Artifacts tapped this way don't untap during..."

>IOW, can an effect tap something that is already tapped?

Yes. It usually has No Visible Effect. This effect is also doing something
_else_ to "all other artifacts", which has nothing to do directly with tapping
them.

>Because of "All
>other artifacts", I can't deduce it from what happens to the kill switch
>and it's something I could imagine there being debate about. Or is it even
>the case that "Tap all other artifacts" and [the tagging with] "They [all
>other artifacts] don't untap[..]" are two separate events, ie, the first
>can fail because they were already tapped but the second can still apply
>to them?

This is essentially correct; tapping them fails to do anything visible, but
applying a delayed sticky-note doesn't fail. (It may fail later if they are
already untapped during a later untap step, though - see the similarity there?)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jasper Janssen wrote:

> On 3 Apr 2005 12:40:15 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
> wrote:
>
>>Kill Switch 3 Artifact
>> 2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They dont untap during their controller's
>> untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.
>
> If an artifact was already tapped when this happens, does it get tagged?

Yes. It says "all other artifacts", not "All other untapped artifacts".

> IOW, can an effect tap something that is already tapped?

It can try. It won't successfully do so, but that doesn't matter here,
because it doesn't say "All artifacts that were tapped don't blah blah..."

> Because of "All
> other artifacts", I can't deduce it from what happens to the kill switch
> and it's something I could imagine there being debate about.

I can't quite parse that sentence. But there's no debate--all artifacts
other than the Kill Switch that were in play when the Kill Switch used
its ability get a "don't untap" tag that isn't removed until the Kill
Switch untaps.

> Or is it even
> the case that "Tap all other artifacts" and [the tagging with] "They [all
> other artifacts] don't untap[..]" are two separate events, ie, the first
> can fail because they were already tapped but the second can still apply
> to them?

Yes, that's how it works. You always do as much of what the card tells you
as you can. You can put a "don't untap" tag on all other artifacts, so you
do.
>
> Jasper

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Chris Mattern" <matternc@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:TuidnQrEr8gVdvffRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
>> On 3 Apr 2005 12:40:15 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Kill Switch 3 Artifact
>>> 2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They dont untap during their
>>> controller's
>>> untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.
>>
>> If an artifact was already tapped when this happens, does it get tagged?
>
> Yes. It says "all other artifacts", not "All other untapped artifacts".
>
>> IOW, can an effect tap something that is already tapped?
>
> It can try. It won't successfully do so, but that doesn't matter here,
> because it doesn't say "All artifacts that were tapped don't blah blah..."
>
>> Because of "All
>> other artifacts", I can't deduce it from what happens to the kill switch
>> and it's something I could imagine there being debate about.
>
> I can't quite parse that sentence. But there's no debate--all artifacts
> other than the Kill Switch that were in play when the Kill Switch used
> its ability get a "don't untap" tag that isn't removed until the Kill
> Switch untaps.
>
>> Or is it even
>> the case that "Tap all other artifacts" and [the tagging with] "They [all
>> other artifacts] don't untap[..]" are two separate events, ie, the first
>> can fail because they were already tapped but the second can still apply
>> to them?
>
> Yes, that's how it works. You always do as much of what the card tells
> you
> as you can. You can put a "don't untap" tag on all other artifacts, so
> you
> do.

OK.. Quick question then..

City of Brass gets targetted by an Animate Land effect. Resolves.
Animated Brass is now smacked with an Ashnod's Transmogrant. Resolves.
Transmogrified Brass was already tapped, gets tapped by Kill Switch.
Does the owner of the City take damage?

Erich
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>OK.. Quick question then..
>
>City of Brass gets targetted by an Animate Land effect. Resolves.

Okay. Land creature.

>Animated Brass is now smacked with an Ashnod's Transmogrant. Resolves.

Okay. Land artifact creature with +1/+1.

>Transmogrified Brass was already tapped, gets tapped by Kill Switch.
>Does the owner of the City take damage?

Nope, because the City does not "become tapped". To "become tapped" it has
to go from being untapped to being tapped; "Whenever City of Brass becomes
tapped" watches for the actual transition in game states, not for effects
hitting the card that are trying to tap it.

The Kill Switch taps it, in other words, but this Has No Effect on the
City - it doesn't make it become tapped, because it was already tapped.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Time to step up the meds; I could have sworn Erich Leibrock just said...
> "Chris Mattern" <matternc@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:TuidnQrEr8gVdvffRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > Jasper Janssen wrote:
> >
> >> On 3 Apr 2005 12:40:15 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Kill Switch 3 Artifact
> >>> 2,Tap: Tap all other artifacts. They dont untap during their
> >>> controller's
> >>> untap steps as long as ~ remains tapped.
> >>
> >> If an artifact was already tapped when this happens, does it get tagged?
> >
> > Yes. It says "all other artifacts", not "All other untapped artifacts".
> >
> >> IOW, can an effect tap something that is already tapped?
> >
> > It can try. It won't successfully do so, but that doesn't matter here,
> > because it doesn't say "All artifacts that were tapped don't blah blah..."
> >
> >> Because of "All
> >> other artifacts", I can't deduce it from what happens to the kill switch
> >> and it's something I could imagine there being debate about.
> >
> > I can't quite parse that sentence. But there's no debate--all artifacts
> > other than the Kill Switch that were in play when the Kill Switch used
> > its ability get a "don't untap" tag that isn't removed until the Kill
> > Switch untaps.
> >
> >> Or is it even
> >> the case that "Tap all other artifacts" and [the tagging with] "They [all
> >> other artifacts] don't untap[..]" are two separate events, ie, the first
> >> can fail because they were already tapped but the second can still apply
> >> to them?
> >
> > Yes, that's how it works. You always do as much of what the card tells
> > you
> > as you can. You can put a "don't untap" tag on all other artifacts, so
> > you
> > do.
>
> OK.. Quick question then..
>
> City of Brass gets targetted by an Animate Land effect. Resolves.
> Animated Brass is now smacked with an Ashnod's Transmogrant. Resolves.
> Transmogrified Brass was already tapped, gets tapped by Kill Switch.
> Does the owner of the City take damage?

No. It did not become tapped. (In general, only an actual change in the
game state can trigger an ability.) This has nothing to do with the fact
that the do-not-untap ability still applies to it. One is looking for
"Did this just go from being untapped, to being tapped?"; the other is
just asking "Is this tapped at the moment? Okay, then it stays that way
instead of untapping".
 
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