Kyro 2 - Part 2

noko · May 1, 2001

Quake III, 1024x768x32 max everything, non compressed textures, version 127h timedemo1, demo demo127
Radeon 64 VIVO Retail, IWILL KK266, T-Bird @ 866mhz, 512mb Ram, Driver 3132 Special Purpose, W2K SP 1.

. Vertex lighting
. . . Bi - 90.7FPS
. . . Tri - 81 FPS (Better visual quality)
. . . Max Anisotropic 74.9FPS (Great increase in visual quality)
*By design the Kyro2 would have to drop at least 1/2 the FPS from Tri to max anisotropic filtering.

. Light table(QuakeIII looks better here)
. . . Bi - 71.5FPS
. . . Tri - 64.6FPS
. . . Max Anisotropic 59.7FPS (Awesome visual quality, this is where I play.)

Note: Loose about 5FPS from going from Tri to Anisotropic filtering. Add about 10FPS when using compressed textures. I don't use them due to the better quality with no apparent loss in game play for me. Plus I normally use the next resolution 1152x864x32 anyways.

Serious Sam, version 1.0, 1024x768x32, Execute Addon - GFX: Extreme Quality (max everything),Multitexturing was at Triple (meaning using the 3 texture units of the Radeon) with the following modifications: Precache Shadowmaps - Yes(On), moved Cache size from large to huge.
Note: With W2k and the above configuration it takes close to 400mb of physical Ram.

. Serious Sam Benchmarks - dem_bProfile=1, Dunes

. . . Bi - 66.8FPS (anisotropic turned off in Drivers)
. . . Tri - 62.2FPS (anisotropic turned off in Drivers)
. . . Standard Anisotropic 65FPS (anisotropic Turned On in drivers as well as in game)
. . . Max Anisotropic 63.3FPS (anisotropic Turned On in drivers as well as in game)

Not sure of the results, did see improvement from Bi to Tri and to Anisotropic but the improvement is no way as near the dramatic changes that I saw in QuakeIII. Downloaded 1.OOc patch and installed after the above tests. Will test later and post if significantly different.

The comment made that the Radeon can't use the third texture unit when doing anisotropic filtering is incorrect and shows the ignorance of the reviewer. The texture unit has nothing to do with anisotropic filtering. The filtering is done before it is sent to the texture unit.

PowerVR created the VilliageMark benchmark to make the Geforce look bad (my opinion) and the Kyro to look good. It renders front to back which is not optimum for a traditional renderer but great for the Radeon HierarchialZ. When T&L is turned off on a T&L card the performance goes up!! over 15% alone. Yet if you have a T&L card villiageMark inserts its T&L optimization that hurts the performance while on the Kyro it removes its hindering method. Its radical results from Bi to Tri with the Radeon is not reflected in real world applications so as for a benchmark it is virtually worthless. Now the test done at Ace's Hardware apparently had HierarchialZ turned off in which some driver sets does have hierarchialZ turned off which is easy to turn on. Once again my benchmarks in VilliageMark 1.17 with 3102 drivers in W2K.

VilliageMark, 1024x768x16

. . . T&L on, Trilinear On, hierarchialZ off - 40FPS
. . . T&L on, Trilinear On, hierarchialZ on - 51FPS (Notice the jump, it renders front to back)
. . . T&L off, Trilinear On, hierarchiaZ on - 58FPS (hmmmmmmmmmmmm those dirty cheap....)
. . . T&L off, Bilinear On, hierarchiaZ on - 86FPS (Smoking!!!)

The Kyro2 anisotropic filtering imposes automatically 1/2 the framerate at a minimum. In short the Kyro2 anisotropic filtering SUCKS on degrading performance when actually used. Its quality is on par with the Radeon doing 16tap.

I hope this clears up Anisotropic filtering on the Radeon somewhat. PowerVR how about doing some benchmarks and posting them yourself using your Kyro. QuakeIII, Serious Sam, VilliageMark using Bi, Tri and Anisotropic. Use compress textures on the Kyro because I know it is 32mb. QuakeIII seems to be the best benchmark for doing filtering method testing.

Edited by noko on 05/01/01 11:43 AM.

noko · May 2, 2001

Beyond3d anaylisis of anisotropic filtering on the Kyro2 confirms the 50% average loss when used. In fact at 1024x768x16/32 it is 56% drop. At 1600x1200x16/32 it is 68%/66%. At lower resolutions it takes less of a hit but averages out to around 50% overall in all the resolutions. This was using a different program then what Ace's hardware used on their analysis.

As I did with the KYRO Vivid! review, I'll use the MBTR demo for a little analysis of Anisotropic filtering on KYROII Vivid!XS.

Again, as we saw with KYRO, enabling Anisotropic filtering equates to a huge performance drop. As was mentioned in the KYRO review, Anisotropic filtering on KYRO/KYROII utilises 16 samples, which is reasonably impressive for a card in this market segment; it's just a shame the performance isn't.

On the KYRO architecture Anisotropic filtering is achieved by taking the samples over two clock cycles per pixel pipe, given the card is already bandwidth constrained in many cases doubling the texture requirements is only going to further exacerbate the issue. Utilising texture compression, although you will not be able to circumvent the use of two cycles per pixel, may lessen the performance penalty.
<A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/index11.php" target="_new">http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/index11.php</A>

Bottom line, if you like the best quality in 3d rendering and with performance, then this for the Kyro2 will be a strike against it.

Edited by noko on 05/01/01 10:53 PM.

Guest · May 2, 2001

50% performance penalty could be enough, because of deferred rendering and TBR it only draws what is visible...
Like I did said there are no perfect card...
😉
On higher definitions even radeon will get a big performance hit (intensive fill rate need).

aceshardware review:
if it gets to 120 fps on that game (formula 1) in bilinear half that would be 60 fps. but of course we would have to put texture compression on, and or 16 bits on kyro 2 ...
nothing is perfect...

noko · May 2, 2001

Well this is a feature which the Kyro2 is weak on. So what? Picky people like me are probably the only ones that would notice this while most people will use trilinear filtering and be just as happy. I figured out why Serious Sam didn't have such a drop in FPS on my Radeon using anisotropic filtering, reason is because anisotropic filtering is not working in that game. I tried many different configurations and really it is not working. So maybe a game issue or a driver problem. I tried it both in WinMe and W2k, no go in either operating system. I did update to the most recent patch 1.00c and it gives more options for anisotropic filtering but it doesn't work.

Whats the word on the final board revisions? As in will the boards ship by mid May?

Guest · May 2, 2001

PowerVR created the VilliageMark benchmark to make the Geforce look bad (my opinion) and the Kyro to look good

my opinion is that powervr was trying to show off the potencial of kyro...
but we could arguy the same for treemark..
😉

Guest · May 2, 2001

let's hope that we could buy one (hercules 4500) in 12th of may!
fingers crossed !

noko · May 2, 2001

hehe, looks like ATI sits in the middle for both of those benchmarks, you know mediocre in both, not the best not the worst.

noko · May 2, 2001

I hope you are right. I hope these rather long threads here did not discourage to many people. The facts are if you walk into any software section of Wal-Mart, Electronic Brotique, Best Buys right now, the Kyro2 will run those games almost without exception at top speed. Thousands of titles I believe will run virtually flawless maybe with some minor glitches with the Kyro2 but never the less they will run. The best part is that windows 2000 with the Kyro2 will run virtually as fast as Win9x, meaning WindowsXP will probably do the same. Something which ATI is working feverishly at in getting the Radeon up to Win9x speeds in W2K. I still believe an accurate account or assessment of a hardware item is the most important information someone needs to buy the right product. The Kyro2 has many strengths but it also has weaknesses, show both honestly and progress is made. Future titles programed around certain hardware features will affect cards that don't have those features. Still we are not talking about hundreds of titles but a very limited number of titles which are not even released yet. I usually buy a video card once a year except for this year, since my Radeon seems to be performing very well and I will upgrade sometime next year. I think a Kyro2 card has at least one good year of performance before a significant number of games are out using features it doesn't have. By then the Kyro3 will be out amazing us even more.

Edited by noko on 05/02/01 09:44 AM.

Guest · May 2, 2001

what would deliver better quality for you guys?
4xFSAA or even 2xFSAA at 1024x768 with trilinear or
1024x768 anisotropic ?

what do you think ?

noko · May 2, 2001

At higher resolutions beyond 1024x768 anisotropic, at and below that resolution FSAA. FSAA is a good feature, but if you ever used FSAA when you have text in a game you will be surprised. The text will be blurred. Still having a strong FSAA on the Kyro2 offsets any less than optimum anisotropic performance hit, my say in the matter . FSAA does have a tendency to blurr or smudge while anisotropic tends to sharpen textures and bring out the details. For me both are just as important. At high resolutions FSAA has much less of visual impact compared to lower resolutions. Now for folks that have 17" monitor or less and don't go beyond 1024x768 the Kyro2 excellent FSAA is a very strong reason to buy a Kyro2. Also flight simulators will look awesome with the Kyro2 without suffering that much in performance if at all. Even on my Radeon using 4x FSAA in FS2000 at 800x600 didn't even affect FPS that much on my 800mhz classic athlon, since flight sims are much more cpu limited than graphic card limited and it looked pretty good. But I preferred going to 1280x1024 instead which even looked better withoud the FSAA. This is all my observation and tastes for which yours may vary. Still the FSAA of the Kyro2 is a strong plus.

Edited by noko on 05/02/01 12:49 PM.

Guest · May 3, 2001

so fs200 is not fill rate intensive ...
I think most flight simulator aren't...

I doubt that there are much overdraw in those games...
There isn´t much to be "paint" in those worlds..
😉

noko · May 3, 2001

That is why FSAA is so effective in them and makes them look like a new game. Now if my Radeon had 1024x768 FSAA in 4x like the Kyro2 I would be using it. I wonder how many people are planning to buy a Kyro2? Maybe you can start a new thread on who's going to buy.

Guest · May 3, 2001

I will buy one !

praising so much kyro 2 I felt that If I don't buy kyro 2 my conscience will kill me!
😉Edited by powervr2 on 05/02/01 09:18 PM.

noko · May 3, 2001

hehe dug yourself a hole heh? I am sure you will be happy with it.

Guest · May 3, 2001

tomshardware geforce 2 Mx review...

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the acceptance of the Kyro II goes in the market, as it is a better product than the GeForce 2 MX, and at a better price point. NVIDIA needs a little more competition, and a little less domination. 

nice for kyro 2....

noko · May 4, 2001

Do you know of any pci versions available? Links? A Kyro2 maybe possible for me but it would limited to pci. How much would the pci bus limit a Kyro2? Do you know? Looking into a dual monitor solution maybe even a Kyro would do the trick. Let me know there buddy.

Guest · May 4, 2001

A demo to show of kyro 2 potencials

templedemo
<A HREF="http://pvr.gamestats.com/files/templedemo.zip" target="_new">http://pvr.gamestats.com/files/templedemo.zip</A>

try these on your's systems...

Guest · May 4, 2001

It was announced that there will be a kyro 2 pci ...
I don't know much more about it...
I saw this on some kyro-fan sites.

But you must be very carefully with your decision to buy a kyro 2 pci.
I don't know if there are compatible issues when used with others 3d cards...
when this cards come to the surface we will find if there are any "issues"

tomshardware review was with a agp kyro 2 card in pci mode...
that review told us that kyro don't need much bandwidth..
😉

Guest · May 4, 2001

anyone tried the demo?

OzzieBloke · May 4, 2001

This post brings the total of posts for KyroII up to 600 for this thread. At an average of 100 words per post, that is 60,000 words. The average small romance novel is about the same length (about 140 pages). This also equates to 2 university PhD thesii, so I think all of us can hold our heads up in pride in the knowledge that we all have achieved the equivelent of a Doctorate Double Major... scary, huh?

Cow with legs spread wide either dead or playing 'cello.

HolyGrenade · May 4, 2001

I'm sure the info in the phd thesis has to be a little better thought out.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · May 4, 2001

hehe yes on the sex habits of an ant or the design of snail trails :lol: .

Guest · May 4, 2001

I saw this on <A HREF="http://pvr.gamestats.com/start.shtml" target="_new">http://pvr.gamestats.com/start.shtml</A>

Edge Of Chaos: Independance War 2 is an upcoming space action game from the boys at Particle Systems. Particle Systems has been testing the KYRO II board out with this game and they are so impressed that they sent some in-game shots to Imagination Technologies who in turn sent them our way. Here's something Particle Systems had to say about the KYRO II:

Derek Marriott, Senior Programmer, Particle Systems Ltd, UK said: "They have about the best antialiasing quality I have seen on a piece of hardware."

here are some of the shots with the kyro 2...
<A HREF="http://pvr.gamestats.com/kyro2/pics/eociw2/advance_patcom_and_debris.jpg" target="_new">http://pvr.gamestats.com/kyro2/pics/eociw2/police_interceptor_and_explosion.jpg</A>
<A HREF="http://pvr.gamestats.com/kyro2/pics/eociw2/heavy_corvette_and_base.jpg" target="_new">http://pvr.gamestats.com/kyro2/pics/eociw2/heavy_corvette_and_base.jpg</A>

COOL

Edited by powervr2 on 05/04/01 12:54 PM.

noko · May 4, 2001

Thats what the Kyro2 needs, a killer game. Those images look AMAZING..... GOO GOO GA GA... PCI kyro2, pci k yr o2..... YES YES YES Y..E..S....! Oh I downloaded the demo will let you know how it dogs the Radeon.

Edited by noko on 05/04/01 12:59 PM.

noko · May 4, 2001

Wow! nice demo. It FLYS on the radeon and is smooth as silk! Nice. Now is there a way to benchmark this demo? Turn on and off T&L? BI and Tri filtering and to change the different resolutions? 6 textures looks very good and my Radeon had no trouble doing it in a window or full screen. Let me know of the commands if any to do the above.

Kyro 2 - Part 2

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