Kyro2 No faster then Mx! (???) :(

jmc2

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I've been over the messages here and see I am not the only one with an under performing Kyro2.


It runs the same speed as my Abit GF2Mx, +,- two,three FPS.
I even installed Win98SE in a new partition with latest
Santa Cruz/Kyro2/VIA Downloaded drivers plus DX7a instead of
DX8.0

NOT a lick of good did it do.
Abit KT7/Duron750/900, 128Meg memory(133Mhz)

Serious Sam DUNES... 1024x768 "QUALITY" SETTING
"no excess peaks" AVE 30, low-21, high-41 FPS.

Starting first level, Not move, FPS 31
At low res my Mx is 2-3 frames faster,
At high 1600x the Kyro is 2-3 frames faster.

Something has got to be wrong but have not found a clue yet.
At this rate I'll put the Kyro in a second maching and reinstall my Mx.

I had hoped for so much more and to get Nothing... :(

All thoughts very welcome!!!
Thanks
jmc2
 
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you don't have a clue ?
I have...

did you disabled anisotropic?
kyro 2 uses 16 samples against 2-4-8 max samples of geforce 2 mx, so if you enable anisotropic you are not comparing the same "quality" for the two cards.

try disabling that, kyro 2 does excel in anisotropic quality but not in anisotropic speed

also you have to tweak a little with serious sam... you should enable texture compression to improve perforamnce...

my duron 900 dunes demo with everthing in the max settings(huge texture, huge shadowmap,promoto to 32 bit etc...) less the anisotropic feature :
high 52,9 fps
low peak 21
low sustained 32,1

it only dropped bellow 32 when it was acessing the disc so that low peak doesn't mean anything...
it's allways fluid.

that dunes demos is the worst case scenario for kyro 2 and the best case scenario for mx (low overdraw). when you are inside buildings etc... kyro 2 would be favoured ...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/11/01 07:05 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

noko

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Pop in a 1.2ghz T-Bird, cost $140 and the Kyro2 performance will go way up getting the highest FPS beating even an Ultra, while that MX will virtually stay the same. 800mhz is roughtly the break even point with the Kyro2 and the MX, after that the Kyro2 dominates. The Kyro2 scales very well with the cpu so in your case your cpu is limiting the Kyro2 and the MX somewhat. The MX gets limited really quick in 32 bit higher resolutions such that no matter what cpu you have beyond 800mhz its performance in most games will virtually be the same.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 

jmc2

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When I benchmark I try to use all the "default" settings
I can. Too many items to change if trying to compare.
I spent a bit of time running Serious Sam benchmarks today.
I'll experiment with some of the settings you mentioned.
It would be a nice surprise to get the 50 percent increase
over a Mx that the reviewers get.

Don't know what is with the numbers not linging up
correctly.
Look at them in one area and they are straight in line.
Another method of viewing them and they are all out of
line.

Thanks,
jmc2
....
Duron750/900,128meg
Abit kt7, Dx8.0
Kyro2 103 drivers (DEFAULT settings)

Serious Sam Ver 1.0
Quality setting plus EXTREME High Quality ini addon
demo FPS (peak)
Karnak Ave Low High
640x480 19 4 70
800x600 16 4 58
1024x768 10 3 51
1600x1200 4 2 21
Metropolis
640 24 9 126
800 19 8 72
1024 14 7 45
1600 6 3 17
Memphis
640 27 9 63
800 23 9 48
1024 15 5 42
13 4 36 - Sam102patch+newest Kyro2 Drv-1.22
15 6 34 - second run of demo
1600 6 4 28
Dunes
640 47 18 113
800 31 15 88
1024 20 11 66
1600 8 5 11
Alley of
640 29 13 84
800 23 12 72
1024 16 9 56
1600 6 3 26

4064 3D marks
CPU Speed 213 CPU 3D marks

Game 1 - Helicopter - Low Detail 83.6 FPS
Game 1 - Helicopter - Medium Detail 54.7 FPS
Game 1 - Helicopter - High Detail 20.0 FPS
Game 2 - Adventure - Low Detail 101.9 FPS
Game 2 - Adventure - Medium Detail 50.0 FPS
Game 2 - Adventure - High Detail 28.5 FPS

Fill Rate (Single-Texturing) 348.1 MTexels/s
Fill Rate (Multi-Texturing) 348.1 MTexels/s

High Polygon Count (1 Light) 2877.0 KTriangles/s
High Polygon Count (4 Lights) 2659.9 KTriangles/s
High Polygon Count (8 Lights) 2324.3 KTriangles/s

8MB Texture Rendering Speed 382.3 FPS
16MB Texture Rendering Speed 357.7 FPS
32MB Texture Rendering Speed 251.6 FPS
64MB Texture Rendering Speed 54.1 FPS

Bump Mapping (Emboss 3-pass) 212.5 FPS
Bump Mapping (Emboss 2-pass) 194.0 FPS
Bump Mapping (Emboss 1-pass) 185.6 FPS
Bump Mapping (Environment) 84.5 FPS

Hmm, I don't know why but my 64meg texture rendering
is usually BAD... half or one third of others I've seen
with similar hardware.
Guess I just hope I can afford a GForce3 for Xmas.
 

noko

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Recommend you update Serious Sam to version 1.02C, should improve Kyro2 performance. Also when you use Extreme quality in Serious Sam it sets the anistropic filtering to max. The Kyro2 when it does anisotropic filtering takes a significant hit in performance in the order of 50%. More then other cards. Compare the two cards with anistropic filtering off I bet the Kyro2 will do much better. I have a MX400 64 meg, I will do some benchmarks and compare them to yours. I won't do the higher resolutions due to the monitor it is hooked up to doesn't do 1600x1200.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/16/01 03:52 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
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I have a duron 900 soyos k7vta motherboard 128 mb ram pc133

I get in dunes 1024x768x32
high 52,9 fps
low peak 21
low sustained 32,1

this is low sustained not average
;)

within the game I usully get more than 40 fps at 1024x768x32 anisotropic filtering off

I get 4700 score on 3dmark 2000 (win 98)
that is with directx7 with directx8.1 beta I get less 200 points

I am afraid but you must have somthing wrong with your system...
some IRQ shared or something...

I have no problems with 64 mbs textures with 3dmark2k in win98... only in win2k

also everything with directx8.1 beta build 620
serious sam is opengl so it doesn't matter...

the perforamnce I get from serious sam with anisotropic filtering off is...
allways smooth at 1024x768x32...
in 1280x1024x32 is not that smooth...

try to enable trilinear and compress textures...


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/17/01 02:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Palpatine

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What drivers are you using? Are the powervr drivers better than the hercules'? Also i think that not all games support kyroII for example i am having problems with the display in some like F1 Racing Championship.

Palpatine
 
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they are the same...
the powervr drivers are more "update" versions
but be carefully you must instal generic drivers not for videologic...

you have problems with F1 racing?
I don't have that game...
but you could enable disble some settings of kyro 2
go to the display properties->3d optimization
and tweak there...

that might help you with that game...

when you have a problem with kyro 2 go to any of the powervr forums and ask there...
<A HREF="http://www.paraknowya.com/discus/" target="_new">http://www.paraknowya.com/discus/</A>

or read this faq:
<A HREF="http://www.paraknowya.com/specials/faq/" target="_new">http://www.paraknowya.com/specials/faq/</A>
hope this might help...
 
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the biggest difference from kyro 2 and mx is lot of bandwidth with kyro 2...
in 16 bits bellow 1024x768 mx is better but when you choose 32 bits or 1024x768 you should get better performance with kyro2 ...
even with kyro1...
so there is something wrong with your system...

please disable anisotropic filtering... you must not enable anisotropic filtering if you want great performance with kyro 2...
if you have anisotropic filtering off then try to reisntall serious sam or something... don't try to install that glsetup thing..
your problem might be because of that...
 

Palpatine

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I have tried all the 3d settings but the main screen of the game and the other off game screens are a mess. When i enable texture compression the main screen doesnt show at all. Anyway i will try the powervr drivers and see what will happen

Palpatine
 

noko

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MX400 benchmarks in W2K, 800mhz Athlon classic. Using 12.20 beta drivers, 12.60 performance where the worst and 12.41 was buggy.

Serious Sam, 102c patched, Addon Extreme Quality with one change, Anistropic filtering - None

<b>Memphis Suburbs</b>

. . 16 bit avg/hi/lo
. . . 1024x768 - 36.5/78/23
. . . 800x600 - 42.5/83.8/26.9

. . 32 bit
. . . 1024x768 - 27.1/52.8/18.1
. . . 800x600 - 40.3/67.6/28.1

<b>Karaak Peaceful. . .</b>

. . 16 bit avg/hi/lo
. . . 1024x768 - 36/80.6/19.4
. . . 800x600 - 43.3/87.3/21.9

. . 32 bit
. . . 1024x768 - 27.2/56.8/17.3
. . . 800x600 - 34.9/83.4/14

<b>Metropolix coop</b>

. . 16 bit avg/hi/lo
. . . 1024x768 - 39.6/89.4/24.3
. . . 800x600 - 46.5/140.4/26.6

. . 32 bit
. . . 1024x768 - 29.6/53.6/20
. . . 800x600 - 41.3/113/24

<b>Dunes</b>

. . 16 bit avg/hi/lo
. . . 1024x768 - 54.1/105/35.1
. . . 800x600 - 63/120.6/40.3

. . 32 bit
. . . 1024x768 - 40.9/76.6/27.2
. . . 800x600 - 56.4/105.2/37.6

<b>Alley Of The Sphinxes</b>

. . 16 bit avg/hi/lo
. . . 1024x768 - 41.3/114.1/21.9
. . . 800x600 - 48.8/130.2/22.8

. . 32 bit
. . . 1024x768 - 33.3/79/20.8
. . . 800x600 - 44.6/119.6/22.8


<b>Quake 3</b>, 127H, Max settings

. . Compresses textures (DXTC 3)
. . . 1024x768x32 - 53
. . . 1024x768x16 - 68.3

. . Non compressed textures
. . . 1024x768x32 - 42
. . . 1024x768x16 - 57.4

note: quakeIII looks better using 16bit uncompresses textures then using 32bit with compressed textures.

<b>3dMark2000</b> default benchmark 4436

<b>3dMark2001</b> default benchmark 2239

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 
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serious sam results everything on the max settings trilinear (without anisotropic) duron 900

win2k 128 mb kyro 2 prophet 4500

1024x768x32

<font color=red>karmak peaceful night coop </font color=red>
(this is a demo that stresses a lot the bandwidth department lots of explosions here, also the

cpu is stressed a litte.

21,7 fps average
24,1 fps average (without excessive peaks)
41,6 high peak
4,8 low peak
15,7 low sustained

on this test my cdrom started running and the hard disk was constantly getting acessed so I

need more memory if I want to have a little more score here...
;)


<font color=red>Metropolis coop</font color=red>

26,4 fps average
27,5 fps average (without excessive peaks)
42,1 high peak
8,3 low peak
39,5 high sustained (23 frames in 0,6 seconds)
20,1 low sustained (24 frames in 1,7 seconds)

sometimes it did acess my disk ... but it was less than with karmak test

<font color=red>Menphis suburb</font color=red>
26,7 fps average
27 fps average (without excessive peaks)
35,4 high peak
18,6 low peak
21,5 low sustained (29 frames in 1,4 seconds)

sometimes it did acess my disk ... but it was less than with karmak test


<font color=red>Dunes</font color=red>

35,2 fps average
35,5 fps average (without excessive peaks)
46,6 high peak
23,7 low peak
41,5 high sustained (24 frames in 0,8 seconds)
28,2 low sustained (33 frames in 1,2 seconds)

my disk was very quiet here...(less memory required for this test? )


<font color=red>Alley of the sphinxes</font color=red>

33,6 fps average
34 fps average (without excessive peaks)
49,2 high peak
18,5 low peak
41,5 high sustained (20 frames in 0,5 seconds)
26 low sustained (81 frames in 2,3 seconds)

I usually play with bilinear by default I get 1-2 fps more fps with bilinear with these game

<font color=red> with all this test it is abvious that I get allways smooth play with serious sam in 1024x768x32 (this are worst case scenarios for all the video cards (many explosions)), I bet that in win98 I would get better results... maybe... I am too lazy to test it in win98, lol</font color=red>

this tests where always in open spaces (low overdraw) kyro 2 can outrun even a geforce ultra

when in closed spaces (more overdraw)

I don't have the latest patch...
;)


after a test when you press F1 Do you see this?
Pixel format descrition
number 6 (type_RGBA)
flags draw_to_windows support_opengl doublebuffer swap_exchange
color bits 32
depth bits 32
opengl context created Imagination technologies, PowerVR kyro 1.2.1 all textures reloaded


what is your kyro model hercules prophet 4500 ?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/17/01 02:04 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
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A big mystake !!!

I did tested my kyro 2 with v-sync enabled and with external z-buffer (I forgot that I changed my kyro default settings, this option decrease the performance of kyro 2 a little...)

now with these options disable and gfx:extreme quality without anisotropic...
I am getting more than 40 fps every time...but I have a big problem with serious sam (I have this patch installed SeriousSamPatch100c_USA.exe I think it is not the last one), sometimes with some demos my hard disk or even cdrom start being acessed really badly giving lausy slide shows...(you can see that with the low peaks numbers) probably it's only my low 128 mb of ram...




win2k 128 mb kyro 2 prophet 4500

1024x768x32

<font color=red>karmak peaceful night coop </font color=red>

15,2 fps average
30,2 fps average (without excessive peaks)
70,3 high peak
1,3 low peak
2 low sustained (24 frames in 1,7 seconds)


<font color=red>Metropolis coop</font color=red>

39.5 fps average
41.3 fps average (without excessive peaks)
128.1 high peak
2.8 low peak
7.8 low sustained (24 frames in 1,7 seconds)


<font color=red>Menphis suburb</font color=red>

37.5 fps average
39.8 fps average (without excessive peaks)
79.7 high peak
15.2 low peak
20.8 low sustained (29 frames in 1,4 seconds)



<font color=red>Dunes</font color=red>

54.4 fps average
56.1 fps average (without excessive peaks)
122.2 high peak
19.4 low peak



<font color=red>Alley of the sphinxes</font color=red>

50.4 fps average
51.9 fps average (without excessive peaks)
114 high peak
16.9 low peak
38.4 low sustained

now I think it is a little bit better..
;)

I will donwload the last patch and see if I got better numbers later...

these numbers are enough to see that kyro 2 performance is better than geforce 2 mx400 without any questions..<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/17/01 05:51 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
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kyro 2 rocks with this game...
grogeous beautifull picture quality...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/17/01 05:54 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
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noko do you can enable bumpmapping with serious sam?
I can, but I don't see where is the bumpmaping..
;)
 

noko

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You will see bumpmapping using the 1.02C patch. Some of the brick walls look absolutely fabulous using bumpmapping. It actually looks like real bricks. Other spots too. You have too little ram, 128mb and W2K and Serious Sam. I am amazed at the results you got so far. I have 256mb in my Athlon 800 machine (MX400) and the hard drive still is used (virtual memory) for the first demo. Get some more ram and your Kyro2 will do much better. 128megs more would be like night and day with serious sam. On my Radeon machine I have 512megs and when I cache the shadows as well and place all caches on max I use over 400mbs of ram between W2K and Serious Sam. Obviously there is no stalls on that machine and it flys well.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 
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;) we know something about kyro...

their's minimum fps is allways better than geforce 2 (with similar average fps)...
but look at those maximum...
allmoust doubling the numbers of mx400..
maybe (maybe...) even gts pro can't touch those.... (even with my lausy duron 900)
;)
yap when I get close to the walls etc... it looks real...
but I get that even without any patches..
by the way the last serious patch don't give any performance improvement with kyro...

I think that 128 mbs is enough...
that demos are worst case scenarios.. I think I will not see much of those in the game...
I am saving for a future motherboard with ddr...
;)
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/18/01 02:36 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

noko

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Ram is dirt cheap now and for W2K will definitely speed things up for ya. Here, $22 can buy you 256mb of Generic pc133. I don't know about Portugal. Are you going to upgrade your cpu?

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 
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I think I will wait..

I am getting smooth playing with all my games (1024x768x32) (I use booth win98 and win2k)

there will be better cpu's around the corner...
I think I should wait..

I like to upgrade when I need. I don't need any upgrade yet...
;)

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/18/01 03:30 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

noko

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That makes sense, if your game play is fine why upgrade. In the mean time have fun.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 

phsstpok

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Hi, again, Noko.

I know the that the Kyro II does better with CPU scaling than other video cards but this is mostly at high resolution, is it not? The reviews and benchmarks that I read seemed to indicate that the Kyro II doesn't show much advantage until 1280x1024. At higher resolutions the Kyro II seemed to challenge Geforce 2 Ultras in some benchmarks but at lower resolutions, including 1024x768, the Kyro II seemed to perform on par with only Geforce 2 MXs.

That's what I got out of the reviews. Do you have any links that would indicate to the contrary of this?

If I am correct about this there is a dilema with the Kyro II. With a low price it would seem to be an ideal card for a budget system. However, because budget systems are likely to have less than state-of-the-art processors and 17" monitors(maybe even smaller, like me) that aren't suitable for resolutions higher than 1024x768 the Kyro II does not seem to be a good fit.

Now with a better system, (like a nice 1.4 ghz processor), and a beautiful 19"-22" monitor, the Kyro II would seem to do better and do it better than some of the competing products. However, better systems require a bigger budget, a budget which might easily handle the competing video cards at this level.

The Kyro II is technically an interesting product but I don't see where it is a good fit for many users.

By the way, with Extreme Quality minus Anisotropic filtering I only got 30.3/53.9/20.5, Average/High/Low in Dunes. I think my Geforce256 SDR's time has come to an end. How do you think a Radeon LE would do?
 
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the point is that kyro 2 will allways deliver playable frames from 640x480 to 1280x1024x32... or even with FSAA

<font color=red>"but this is mostly at high resolution, is it not? "</font color=red>

nop in higher resolutions it's when kyro 2 might be the bottleneck not the cpu...

A better cpu would help kyro 2 to achieve better performance in lower resolution more that in higher resolutions...

see my score with only 128 mb of ram with my kyro 2 with my duron in serious sam..
I have two times more frames than a geforce 2 mx 400 (those minimum don't count cause I have only 128 mbs)

I am sure that I would get similar or better performance than a geforce 2 GTS and I have a "lausy" duron 800 overclocked to 900 ..
;)

do you want to see some reviews of kyro 2 ?

they are not new and they used beta drivers but they show nevertheless great performance from kyro...

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1435" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1435</A>
<A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/index.html" target="_new">http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/index.html</A>

there are no new reviews with the new kyro drivers..
but I think they will appear...
some games are getting more than 60% more performance with the last drivers
I would say that it's even better than a geforce2 pro with an high end cpu (1,2 athlon for example)

but for the price I think radeon Le is great ...
I would say that it's the best card with performance/price ratio (with the tweaks) not sure if those tweaks or flash updates works always with radeon LE...
:(
noko they work always?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 06/19/01 05:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

noko

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Well on my Radeon at stock clock speed, 1.4gh T-Bird, extreme quality w/o anistropic filtering:

<b>Dunes</b>

1024x768x32 avg/hi/lo
. . . 70/186.1/39.1

1600x1200x32
. . . 33.8/76.6/20.9

Radeon could do better if I overclock but I don't need to yet. The Radeon LE should do about the same if overclocked to 183mhz and hyperZ is activated. The RadeonSE (The newer Radeon64) are clocked at 200/200 and will overclock to 225/225 plus.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 
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of course kyro is up there only when you enable 32 bit
not when it's in 16 bit (kyro gain less from going from 32 to 16 bit than a geforce)
but that it's not bad... because in 16 bit it's in a different league...
 

noko

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Seems like hyperZ works on virtually every Radeon LE, the amount you can overclock is what varies. Still most people can overclock over 166mhz.

Well to eat your <b>C :smile: :smile: kie</b> and have it too, gotta get <b>Rade :smile: n II</b>
 

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