Late game motivation

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Late game motivation

I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.

I currently have one priest I stopped playing around Orcus. An
archeologist in the first levels of gehenom. And I just now feel the
call to start a new game - my current tourist is more-than-ready for
gehenom and all the ending - he's just cleared the castle. The
archeologist's game is pretty old - I don't think I'm ever load it
back, the priest I might and the tourist I'm trying to motivate myself.

I completely went through gehenom twice, once for my first ascension,
and once with a tourist who died to a cockatrice corpse after finding
the vibrating square.

I'm not sure why, maybe because the discovery part of the game is done.
Maybe I get bored after so much preparation. I remember from other
threads that some other players feel the same. I know I really love the
discovery part of the games, searching for Ludios, identifying the
items, finding the shops, etc. That's pretty much done once the castle
is reached.

I don't want to start another gehenom-is-boring thread - even though it
might be a big part of it. I'm just wondering how other players feel
around that point? What motivates you to go? Or what deters you?

I like:
- most special levels in gehenom
- the wizard
- the demon lords

I don't like
- the mazes
- nothing to discover anymore
- the very long trips back and forth to the stash (even the castle
feels far from the bottom)

Maybe it's time for conducts games already - or I should start taking
SlashEM seriously

--
Jean-François Côté

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> I think that's a cowardly cop-out. You can be killed by the wizard,
> you can die on the planes, and Astral can and does kill overprepared
> characters with a thousand hitpoints and every advantage.

I don't think it's a cop-out -- there's a lot of levels between the
Castle and the Elemental Planes. I can see why the mazes are there --
they put some distance between finding the Amulet and the top of the
dungeon which can't be flipped through using level teleport, and they
present the player with additional opportunity to find ascension kit
items if the RNG has been unusually stingy. Me, I think the mazes
might just be bearable if it wasn't for that damn "mysterious force"
which, in my last game, made me travel through the same level eight
times -- and that character was Chaotic! That's just annoying.

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I have found that using detect treasure and magic mapping, or !oDetect
Object and ?oMM for the combat wombat, greatly improves the mazes of
Ghenom. Just map it, detect the useful stuff, dig diretly or teleport
directly to it, grab the stuff and then move on. It really takes the
tedium out of it.

 

[James]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1108608698.582519.64770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com> wrote:

>I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
>their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.

I think that's a cowardly cop-out. You can be killed by the wizard,
you can die on the planes, and Astral can and does kill overprepared
characters with a thousand hitpoints and every advantage.

Hell can be boring, sure. And I guess the ascension run can be a
cakewalk but I haven't seen it be anything but a frustrating and
exciting part of the game.

 

[S]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

JohnWH@gmail.com says...
> > I think that's a cowardly cop-out. You can be killed by the wizard,
> > you can die on the planes, and Astral can and does kill overprepared
> > characters with a thousand hitpoints and every advantage.
>
> I don't think it's a cop-out -- there's a lot of levels between the
> Castle and the Elemental Planes. I can see why the mazes are there --
> they put some distance between finding the Amulet and the top of the
> dungeon which can't be flipped through using level teleport, and they
> present the player with additional opportunity to find ascension kit
> items if the RNG has been unusually stingy.

This would make more sense if the castle weren't such a break point--
if you can survive the castle, you can survive all of Gehennom. But big
holes in your ascension kit will keep you from surviving the castle.

-S, just a bit bitter about her growing collection of MR-less, wishless
monk corpses at the castle

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots wrote:
> Late game motivation
>
> I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
> their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.
....
> What motivates you to go? Or what deters you?

I find I am motivated by the fact that as soon as I have an ascension
kit, the rest of the game is rather quick. My last ascension, a Rogue,
took less than 6000 turns after finishing buffing up at my stash - with
less than 500 turns spent on the planes (hint: magic map your way
through Gehennom, use the travel (_) command*, levitate across the
plane of water, wish for a cockatrice corpse on Astral).

Granted, getting the ascension kit is the hard part, but it's also the
fun part.

The only game I have ever abandoned was a semi-extinctionist where I
found myself sitting there with ~5000 HP, AC:-128, on turn 150000 and
wondering what the point was supposed to be.

* Do not underestimate this. _<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.< will get you up
through the main dungeon in less than a minute of real time, assuming
only a few pauses to bypass peacefuls and foolish monsters, and maybe
to whack/zap rodney a couple of times.

Incidentally, that Rogue was the last class I hadn't yet ascended, so
now I'm preparing a big list of collected YANIs for the reading
pleasure of rgrn

Sam

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

It's telling that the only game you abandoned was the one that was
overprepared. I think overpreparing makes the game dull, especially if
it's done in a dull way (pudding farming, etc).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Vintermann wrote:
>
> It's telling that the only game you abandoned was the one that was
> overprepared. I think overpreparing makes the game dull, especially
if
> it's done in a dull way (pudding farming, etc).

It also increases the risk of dying by mistake. I recently
choked to death just before heading down to take out the
wiz. The character was significantly over prepared.

Maybe pushing deeper even though you are missing some bits
of your ascension kit is what makes the late game challenging.

Lately I have begun playing chaotic human wizards. In the
past I have mostly played various combat wombats, so it will
be a while before I have a chaotic human wizard in the late
game ...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Sammiel wrote:
> nonobots wrote:
> > Late game motivation
> >
> > What motivates you to go? Or what deters you?
>
> The only game I have ever abandoned was a semi-extinctionist where I
> found myself sitting there with ~5000 HP, AC:-128, on turn 150000 and
> wondering what the point was supposed to be.

Seems we have very different tolerance level.

> * Do not underestimate this. _<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.< will get you up
> through the main dungeon in less than a minute of real time, assuming
> only a few pauses to bypass peacefuls and foolish monsters, and maybe
> to whack/zap rodney a couple of times.

This is inspiring, I always play step by step - the travel command will
make things a lot faster. Making the end game quicker (in real time)
would help me a lot I guess.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1108608698.582519.64770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com> wrote:
>
> >I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
> >their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.
>
> I think that's a cowardly cop-out. You can be killed by the wizard,
> you can die on the planes, and Astral can and does kill overprepared
> characters with a thousand hitpoints and every advantage.

I don't stop playing because I'm afraid to lose my character. I
wouldn't play Nethack at all if that was the case. It's really the call
for a fresh new game with a brand new dungeon I think that makes me
abandon the games. Or the fact that that call is greater than the call
to go through gehenom, than back up again.

> Hell can be boring, sure. And I guess the ascension run can be a
> cakewalk but I haven't seen it be anything but a frustrating and
> exciting part of the game.

I think I'll force myself to finish those games. I haven't seen much of
the planes.

--
Jean-François Côté

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots wrote:
>
> Sammiel wrote:

> > * Do not underestimate this. _<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.<_<.< will get you up
> > through the main dungeon in less than a minute of real time, assuming
> > only a few pauses to bypass peacefuls and foolish monsters, and maybe
> > to whack/zap rodney a couple of times.
>
> This is inspiring, I always play step by step - the travel command will
> make things a lot faster. Making the end game quicker (in real time)
> would help me a lot I guess.

I once had the same reaction you describe upon completing
the castle. I forced myself to finish most of those games
and now it's not so bad. There are a number of tactics to
speed the trip through Gehennom. For example, during my last
couple of games I had 11 and 14 c!oGL for use on the no
teleport levels during the ascension run. On one of those I
met Rodney the minimum 2 times!

And use stuff to move faster before the ascension run, those
c?oTC won't do you any good on the planes. Only 2 of your 24
/oDig may be needed, use 'em up!
--
Wes
The early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"nonobots" <jfcote@nonobots.com> writes:

> I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
> their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.

You sound a little bit like Boudewijn 🙂

--
Jukka Lahtinen

 

[marcus]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots wrote:
> Late game motivation
[snip]
> I don't want to start another gehenom-is-boring thread - even though
> it might be a big part of it. I'm just wondering how other players
> feel around that point? What motivates you to go? Or what deters you?

It absolute is boring. Horrendously so. So much so that I used to stop
characters that I now know were perfectly ascendable once I reached that
point in the game, dreading the descent.

That said, after a few successful ascensions (particularly a near run with a
Wizard, and later a successful Wizard), I learned a few tricks that made
Gehennom a lot less painful. Magic Mapping, a source of Light, autodig (man
I wish it would NOT print that @#$# 'you dig into the rock' message each
time you dig in Gehennom 🙁), Travel (or mouse enabled), \oDigging down (not
near the stairs!), cursed gain level, Teleport Control, cursed/confused
?teleportation, \oTeleport, Teleportitis, and so on.

The good/bad/annoying thing about that prep though - it takes yet more
fiddling to acquire and manage, and it almost trivializes Gehennom->Astral
(ie, instead of a horrendously boring slog, it becomes a tedious quick easy
slog). Neither is appealing.

In large part, this is just the way that Nethack is. By the time you reach
the endgame, it's either going to be really easy (and hopefully fast), or
you're going to die to a stupid avoidable death and hate yourself/the game
for some period of time ranging from two minutes to two years, depending on
your tolerance.

Motivation? Ascension!

I do wish there were a few other interface changes, they would help remove
some of the more tedious parts of playing NH, early and late.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Marcus wrote:

> In large part, this is just the way that Nethack
> is. By the time you reach the endgame, it's either
> going to be really easy (and hopefully fast), or
> you're going to die to a stupid avoidable death
> and hate yourself/the game for some period of time
> ranging from two minutes to two years, depending
> on your tolerance.

Hmmm.

YANI 1:

One way to look at the problem is that once you hit
the basement, that's as tough as the monsters are
ever going to get, excepting only Rodney, until you
hit Astral. It doesn't have to be that way.

How about, instead, once you hit the basement, the
formula for toughening monsters goes from

0.5 * ( XL + Dlvls_from_the_Top )

to

0.5 * ( XL + Depth_of_Basement + Dlvls_from_the_Basement )

giving room to install a whole new generation of
ever more horrific monsters ripped from the
imaginations of kids permanently warped by too much
AD&D in their formative years.

That way, instead of everything but Rodney getting
easier as you go up, until you hit Astral,
everything just keeps getting harder and harder.

YANI 2:

Who says you have to go up through the same levels
you went down? Provide a whole new unexplored up
path, so that coming out with the amulet finds you
in completely unfamiliar territory again, as with
every dungeon level on the way down, and with no way
back to the down path. There's not even any need to
guarantee that if you went down 47 levels you won't
have to go up 51; the up levels might be "closer
spaced", so you'd not know until you get there which
up staircase was _the_ up staircase, and would need
to be checking your Amulet of Yendor at each landing.

This leaves room for whole new sets of special
levels, new, separate, and wonderful
artifacts-of-upgoingness, and, wonder of wonders,
forces you either to carry your ascension kit all
the way down to the basement and then back up the
new levels, or to acquire it on the way up _while_
fending off a Rodney or two. That means no more
stashing everything needful on Dlvl1, making
inventory management a never-ending bitch, but
lessening the motivation to backtrack and perhaps
even speeding the overall game.

This gets rid of "preplowed paths" through Gehenom,
too, making your quarrel with Rodney a whole
different battle, as you are now in "harrassed while
freshly exploring" mode. The mysterious force is
therefore going to be a cause of death by apoplexy
to many players, too.

I don't think many will be complaining about the
trip up being "boring", exactly; maybe "impossible";
ditto the one down while dragging your whole
ascension kit.

HTH

xanthian, so evil I'm not even volunteering to code
the patches.

"Oh, you can't get there from here, you have to
start someplace else entirely." -- famous punch line.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Wes Irby wrote:
> nonobots wrote:
> >
> > [late game motivation]
> >
> I once had the same reaction you describe upon completing
> the castle. I forced myself to finish most of those games
> and now it's not so bad. There are a number of tactics to
> speed the trip through Gehennom.

I decided to see my tourist through. The only preparation left to do
was aquiring TC as an intrinsic, and preparing his scrolls and potions
fro the way back up. He's got something like 26 C?oTeleport and as much
uncursed and blessed ones. Gain levels are rather scarse he has 3 or 4
cursed ones.

He decided to NOT gather everything from Gehenom. He's magic mapping
and digging his way, not exploring fully. The only detours he'll make
is for killing mind flayers and other baddies I won't want wandering
around on the way up (mind flayers, green slime, minotaurs, succubus.)
He's gonna keep some cash around for demon lords. He's now thinking
about dumping his pets (gray D, Titan and two purple worms) because
they are slowing him down.

(+7 Grayswandir / +7 silver saber - two rings of Increase Damage - +5
and +6 are helping speed the amount of time spent fighting too - almost
everything dies in one blow)

I'll try and make it quick. Real-Life quick. And Game time quick.

YASD or YAAP? We'll soon know.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1108608698.582519.64770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com> wrote:
>
> >I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
> >their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.
>
> I think that's a cowardly cop-out. You can be killed by the wizard,
> you can die on the planes, and Astral can and does kill overprepared
> characters with a thousand hitpoints and every advantage.

Disagree, strongly.

The only characters I've ever lost after the castle are ones who
encountered things I'd never seen before and did one-time deaths on
them (once I ate a 'trice egg (didn't know those existed), once I was
slimed by a green slime and had no idea how to deal with it). Once
you've got AC -30 and 300+ hp with an ascension kit then you're pretty
much safe from everything but YASD (or maybe a tiny random chance of
Rodney's touch) as long as you play smart. I've made it past the
castle 14 times now and only died those 2 times I mentioned.

And if I had to pick I'd say air is more of a threat than astral, but
neither seems very rough compared to the chances of death in the early
game. I mean, 3 archons for a character in the late game are nothing
compared to the first soldier ant or mumak you run into.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Wolfe wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
> > I empty Gehennom first, before retiring my characters (except for
the
> > last level, and the room where Rodney resides).
> >
> > I think my hidden motivation might be that I don't want to lose my
> > characters, and I consider ascending "losing a character" as well.
> >
>
> I seem to remember someone suggesting years ago that perhaps ascended

> characters could replace the appropriate god of their class/align,
> making a new god for future characters to worship in later games. I
> think it was shouted down due to continuity reasons (Of the 'why
would
> someone be entering the dungeons for the amulet when Character X has
> already retrieved it?' persuasion), but I for one would prefer to see

> the 'immortality' of an ascended character preserved somehow.

The number of times this friggin' amulet has been retrieved is insane.
I think the gods are playing with us! Maybe they are slowly building an
army of immortals!

I say we should boycott them!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots wrote:

> I like:
> - the wizard

So linger longer!

> - the demon lords

Collect them all!

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> "nonobots" <jfcote@nonobots.com> writes:

>> I tend to stop playing characters once they reached the castle, got
>> their ascension kit and are ready for the end-game.

> You sound a little bit like Boudewijn 🙂

I empty Gehennom first, before retiring my characters (except for the
last level, and the room where Rodney resides).

I think my hidden motivation might be that I don't want to lose my
characters, and I consider ascending "losing a character" as well.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Marcus wrote:

> I wish it would NOT print that @#$# 'you dig into the rock' message
each
> time you dig in Gehennom

I haven't tried, but would turning the "verbose" option off work?

> I do wish there were a few other interface changes, they would help
> remove some of the more tedious parts of playing NH, early and late.

Could you name some of them, or, better yet, mail them to the Dev Team?
In my experience, they are also interested in good interfacing
suggestions, next to other nifty ideas.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[marcus]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>
>> I wish it would NOT print that @#$# 'you dig into the rock' message
>> each time you dig in Gehennom
>
> I haven't tried, but would turning the "verbose" option off work?

Just tried this, doesn't seem to work 🙁 (noverbose, correct? - shows as
disabled in O ingame at any rate)

>> I do wish there were a few other interface changes, they would help
>> remove some of the more tedious parts of playing NH, early and late.
>
> Could you name some of them, or, better yet, mail them to the Dev
> Team? In my experience, they are also interested in good interfacing
> suggestions, next to other nifty ideas.

I've actually been compiling a list of things since I started playing
again - it is relatively small, given the amount of time I dumped into the
game around Xmas, but the bulk of it is indeed focused on usability. While
ime, Gehennom is the worst part of the game, that is arguably subjective (or
at least moreso than benign interface additions), so I haven't recorded more
general gameplay oriented gripes as fastidiously. I'll make a post/mail the
DT at some point. I'm still in the process of guiding a friend through NH on
NAO and just over IM while he plays, which always tends to bring up
interesting conversations about various aspects of the game, and makes me
think hard about different parts of Nethack.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

begin quoting Wes Irby <w_irby@hotmail.com>:
>speed the trip through Gehennom. For example, during my last
>couple of games I had 11 and 14 c!oGL for use on the no
>teleport levels during the ascension run. On one of those I
>met Rodney the minimum 2 times!

I met Rodney twice with my 3.4.2 Wizard without any of that - I suspect
the RNG noticed I had 2 WoD and the Finger at 0% and decided it wasn't
worth it.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Friday, February.

 

[wolfe]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> I empty Gehennom first, before retiring my characters (except for the
> last level, and the room where Rodney resides).
>
> I think my hidden motivation might be that I don't want to lose my
> characters, and I consider ascending "losing a character" as well.
>

I seem to remember someone suggesting years ago that perhaps ascended
characters could replace the appropriate god of their class/align,
making a new god for future characters to worship in later games. I
think it was shouted down due to continuity reasons (Of the 'why would
someone be entering the dungeons for the amulet when Character X has
already retrieved it?' persuasion), but I for one would prefer to see
the 'immortality' of an ascended character preserved somehow.

 

[wolfe]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots wrote:

> The number of times this friggin' amulet has been retrieved is insane.
> I think the gods are playing with us! Maybe they are slowly building an
> army of immortals!
>
> I say we should boycott them!
>

It's nice to know the amulet is environmentally friendly and made from
recyclable materials, though.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

begin quoting nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com>:
>The number of times this friggin' amulet has been retrieved is insane.
>I think the gods are playing with us! Maybe they are slowly building an
>army of immortals!

Every character, upon entering the Demigod Bar, hangs the Amulet on the
amulet stand. Unfortunately, it's not bolted down, and the weight of the
Amulet causes it to tip over, dumping the Amulet in the drain. Far below,
Rodney is standing knee-deep in the sewer with galoshes and a net.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Friday, February.