[SOLVED] Laying conduit for Cat6 run

[Barty1884]

Hi all,

Looking for some tips/thoughts on laying conduit for Ethernet runs to a detached garage.

Builder wanted to charge a fortune to do it, but agreed to do conduit through the house to the rear exterior, with a pull string. They've given me a wink-wink, the trenching (for electrical) will be done in the next couple of days, if I want to come by and do it before the concrete patio pad & garage pad are poured, now would be the time.

My plan was just to cheap out, and run some direct burial gel-filled Cat6 from the conduit and just pull back the sod a bit to get it out of the way. Now the opportunity presents itself, I'm debating whether to do something properly...

Any tips or thoughts would be appreciated.

Going from here:

To approx:

 

[Codeym]

I havent used the gel filled cat 6 but personally id just run the conduit. Wouldnt want to risk at all having to cut up concrete if it was to get damaged. Better to he safe than sorry

 

[bill001g]

Direct bury is what most people do since it tend to be lots more work to bury conduit. You can just put in in the trench under the concreate which is a option most people don't have. The conduit is much easier to replace the cable and you can use the cheaper indoor cable.

You need nothing special normal 1/2 plastic conduit works. You can run 1 cable and leave a pull string for a second or more. They sell rolls of stuff called nonmetalic liquid tight conduit. This is one piece and easy to run. You can use the rigid stuff you glue but to run it up to the house you need to measure carefully and need to buy the proper curved parts. The rigid stuff is a lot cheaper.

In general the cost is about the same. You pay more for direct bury cable but do not pay for conduit. I would always go the conduit route just because of the fear to needing to replace the cable some day in the future.

 

[Barty1884]

Thanks @bill001g, I definitely want to run the conduit now that I have the option to. Thinking just PVC and just a straight run from A-B. Only bends will be two 90' to bring it out of the ground..... assuming all goes to plan, of course.

Going to run out there tonight & plan it out - might even just run to HomeDepot and grab some PVC tonight

 

[kanewolf]

Hi all,

Looking for some tips/thoughts on laying conduit for Ethernet runs to a detached garage.

Builder wanted to charge a fortune to do it, but agreed to do conduit through the house to the rear exterior, with a pull string. They've given me a wink-wink, the trenching (for electrical) will be done in the next couple of days, if I want to come by and do it before the concrete patio pad & garage pad are poured, now would be the time.

My plan was just to cheap out, and run some direct burial gel-filled Cat6 from the conduit and just pull back the sod a bit to get it out of the way. Now the opportunity presents itself, I'm debating whether to do something properly...

Any tips or thoughts would be appreciated.

Going from here:

To approx:

Remember if you lay conduit in their trench, then YOUR work has to meet the inspector standards also. You have to get a green tag for rough-in electrical and your conduit will be part of that inspection.

 

[punkncat]

The big thing with CAT wire is that you are supposed to keep a minimum bend.

Kane makes a superb point and it's hard to know how hard core the inspector will be. Low voltage wiring will fall under a permit and license. You might want to check with your electrician to see if he has the communications type low voltage cert that you could do this under, if the inspector will require it.

In a case like this I would probably wait till all was done, if possible. Perhaps run whatever (PVC) needs to go under the concrete or such as planning and mark what you would have to dig to get and such.

 

[Barty1884]

Remember if you lay conduit in their trench, then YOUR work has to meet the inspector standards also. You have to get a green tag for rough-in electrical and your conduit will be part of that inspection.

Very good point, I hadn't thought about that. Can I lay conduit in their trench for electrical? They're digging up most of the yard, so I was just going to run in a straight(ish) line from the box/pullstring on the side of the house to the edge of the garage pad & up.

Builder is only running electrical out there, and I assumed my conduit would need to be a minimum couple of feet from an electrical run?

The big thing with CAT wire is that you are supposed to keep a minimum bend.

Really? This is a new one..... doesn't CAT cabling snake everywhere through a wall? Surely same logic applies?
Regardless, I'm only planning a straight run & a 90(ish) bend on either end.... I'd assume that would be classed as fairly minimal?

In a case like this I would probably wait till all was done, if possible. Perhaps run whatever (PVC) needs to go under the concrete or such as planning and mark what you would have to dig to get and such.

You mean just have the conduit down through where the concrete will go and cap it off? If I do that, I know I'll never go back and trench to that depth again to get at it - I'd just go the direct burial route if that were the case.

 

[punkncat]

Yes, rarely do installers do it right, but you are supposed to do loops on CAT wire, rather than 90* bends, thus use "sweeps" (long bend) instead of 90.

I wouldn't suggest leaving the capped ends deep....really don't know all your install parameters. If there is just an "empty pipe" laying alongside the electricians, or whoever, it may not have to meet any manner of further inspection. Just an extra for future expansion, etc. Pull string in it and you can go back and run your cabling after.

edit- just as a side note, some inspectors will be curious about pull string too. If that is a concern you can use a vacuum with a plastic bag tied on end of pull string to bring it through easily.

 

[kanewolf]

Here is a white paper on bend radius -- https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/F1275W-NAEN.pdf
Usually at a building exit, a pulling elbow is used to simplify the pull. It could be possible to fail to meet the 1 inch radius at a pulling elbow.

 

[Barty1884]

Yes, rarely do installers do it right, but you are supposed to do loops on CAT wire, rather than 90* bends, thus use "sweeps" (long bend) instead of 90.

Sorry, this makes total sense... Not sure why it didn't resonate when I read your first mention.

I wouldn't suggest leaving the capped ends deep....really don't know all your install parameters. If there is just an "empty pipe" laying alongside the electricians, or whoever, it may not have to meet any manner of further inspection. Just an extra for future expansion, etc. Pull string in it and you can go back and run your cabling after.

edit- just as a side note, some inspectors will be curious about pull string too. If that is a concern you can use a vacuum with a plastic bag tied on end of pull string to bring it through easily.

Not sure what else should be considered in terms of parameters (not my area of expertise.... can you tell?), happy to share any info if it helps? Just let me know what'll be useful to know. Concrete patio pad going down, which I believe (and could be waaay off) only necessitates 4".

I'm terrible at visualizing distances (and don't have the lot plans on hand), I think the run needs to be ~20Ft +/-.

Here is a white paper on bend radius -- https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/F1275W-NAEN.pdf
Usually at a building exit, a pulling elbow is used to simplify the pull. It could be possible to fail to meet the 1 inch radius at a pulling elbow.

Thanks - makes sense now.

 

[punkncat]

So...if you were going to try and avoid pitfalls you (may) want to follow the trench made by the electricians, but you may or may not have issue being in there while the inspector has to look, before they cover it....and this could come up later.
If you have the time and timing your best bet is to have them lay the trench and you go out the moment the inspector leaves and before they cover the trench. Emulate what they did with PVC, stay as far as possible from voltage. If you have to run parallel to it long I would use a shielded cable with drain line (whole other thread). You cannot run in the same tubing as I am sure you know.

I assume that the conduit run to outside from the house is separate and a little distance from the electrical service, or is this right nearby?
When you get to the shop/garage thing when you come out of the ground and go inside the inspector could take further pause if something is there outside plans and permits. He will have to come back to do an inspection on the electrical aspect before wall cover up.
It would be in your best interest to see if the electrician can/will run it and add to his permitting process, (or) ask the inspector if he is actually going to care that you run "a pipe" which could open a can or worms, (or) try to run this in such a way and location that it won't be seen and come up.

 

[Barty1884]

Thanks for the insight @punkncat

I've been trawling through building code (local, provincial & federal) and nothing jumping out at me.... that doesn't mean it's not there, of course, just that my 10 minutes of perusing hasn't found it yet.

Unfortunately, they've given me a limited window to have this in. It's "open" for me to put this in tonight or tomorrow, and I don't think I'm going to be able to run out there post-inspection to sneak it in.

Yes, the conduit to the exterior is separated. The closest I believe it comes is 3-4Ft. So should be ok from an interference standpoint.

My thinking is to emulate their install of the electrical, just a few feet over. Probably not as simple as it is in my head - but if I echo depth, length and end points, I'm hoping all will be ok. If not, the builder can just take it out before they backfill, and I'll just run direct burial as per original thinking.

Unfortunately, while the electrician can run it for me, they were quoting +$1,100 CAD for the ~20Ft run (above and beyond the cost for the conduit inside!!), which I think is absurd. Yes, convenience... Yes, it'll pass inspection.... but man, that cost stings, and I'm not paying it on principle! 😂

Garage will be unfinished, from the builder - so there's no wall cover up. As long as it passes inspection for the electrical run..... inspector would never need to see the conduit again, I wouldn't think. They'll be back to sign off on the garage wiring inside, but should have no interest in anything beyond the electrical running in.... I hope.

 

[punkncat]

Wow....that is very expensive for such an easy run alongside work already done for much of it.
Good luck with it. It will work out fine one way or the other.

 

[Barty1884]

Yeah, they just didn't want to do it so gave me a 'go away' price, I'm sure. And I told them to go away right back! haha. They charged a couple hundred to run the conduit to the exterior, through a bulkhead and around a basement room, so that made sense and I jumped on it. Once it's outside though, ESPECIALLY when there's already a giant hole there, I refused to pay that kind of money for what is a basic run - albeit only 'basic' when you know what you're doing.

 

[SamirD]

Late to the party, but having seen a lot of this done in commercial environments, here's my thoughts.

Don't use a small 1" pipe--that's the problem. Use a 2-3" pipe--then 90 deg bends aren't that bad since the actual radius when pulling cable will less. Plus, this allows you to run whatever cable you want. You can lay this right on top of their electrical ones if that will make it easier and not cause inspection issues (I'll mention why later).

Leave a pull string, but don't make it out of string as that will probably get cut--use something stronger that won't raise any flags with the inspector.

Don't bother with copper cabling. Why? Because pre-terminated fibre is cheap and will run will in a large conduit, and you don't have any differential grounding to worry about. Oh, and you're future proofed too.

Good luck! Don't skimp on the diameter of the conduit--pulling cable through a larger pipe is a dream compared to a little 1" one, and then you don't need the special radius and can easily run fibre without damage.

 

[GorillaMonsoon]

I am an electrician from Canada so your code would be different but I'm sure most of this applies. 1/2" PVC with manual bends with a heat gun or pre fabbed 90's is fine, perhaps 3/4 if your worried about room but 1" or larger would be overkill. You could easily get 3 or 4 cat6 cables in a 1/2". Might need an expansion joint where it comes out of the dirt depending on the codes out there. If it is going under a driveway you will need to pay attention to code as there will be a minimum depth and need mechanical protection like wood or concrete. In any trench you'll need sand over top on the conduit and burial tape over that.
1 foot from an electrical run is sufficient where I'm from.

 

[Barty1884]

I am an electrician from Canada so your code would be different but I'm sure most of this applies. 1/2" PVC with manual bends with a heat gun or pre fabbed 90's is fine, perhaps 3/4 if your worried about room but 1" or larger would be overkill. You could easily get 3 or 4 cat6 cables in a 1/2". Might need an expansion joint where it comes out of the dirt depending on the codes out there. If it is going under a driveway you will need to pay attention to code as there will be a minimum depth and need mechanical protection like wood or concrete. In any trench you'll need sand over top on the conduit and burial tape over that.
1 foot from an electrical run is sufficient where I'm from.

Thanks Gorilla, I'd assume code would be much the same in each Province... but you don't happen to be in AB, are you?

Yeah, I was thinking 3/4" wouldn't be a bad route to go - just incase. Only planning on pulling 2x Cat6 through... but you never know what the future holds.

Good to know 1ft is sufficient for code.... think I'll probably opt for at least 2ft, just to be on the safe side. But I'll line it all up and see what spacing looks like when I go out there tonight.

Late to the party, but having seen a lot of this done in commercial environments, here's my thoughts.

Don't use a small 1" pipe--that's the problem. Use a 2-3" pipe--then 90 deg bends aren't that bad since the actual radius when pulling cable will less. Plus, this allows you to run whatever cable you want. You can lay this right on top of their electrical ones if that will make it easier and not cause inspection issues (I'll mention why later).

Leave a pull string, but don't make it out of string as that will probably get cut--use something stronger that won't raise any flags with the inspector.

Don't bother with copper cabling. Why? Because pre-terminated fibre is cheap and will run will in a large conduit, and you don't have any differential grounding to worry about. Oh, and you're future proofed too.

Good luck! Don't skimp on the diameter of the conduit--pulling cable through a larger pipe is a dream compared to a little 1" one, and then you don't need the special radius and can easily run fibre without damage.

Beyond expanding the radius of bends & simplicity of a pull, I don't see any need for 2-3" pipe? Sure, more could go through the pipe at a later date, but would be strictly low voltage (obv), and I don't see any way that I'd come anywhere close to filling a 2-3" pipe....

You just switched to fibre on me.... While I'm not opposed, this would require converters at either end, which seems overkill. Exterior>Lightning Suppressor>PVC>Suppressor #2>Into garage, converters just add an extra layer that seems unnecessary to me. Am I missing something?

Does fibre function with POE/POE+? I'm sure I could Google that...

 

[Rogue Leader]

Does fibre function with POE/POE+? I'm sure I could Google that...

Fibre cannot provide electricity.

EDIT:

clearly I am wrong

https://www.isemag.com/2016/06/extending-power-over-ethernet-with-optical-fiber/

 

[GorillaMonsoon]

Thanks Gorilla, I'd assume code would be much the same in each Province... but you don't happen to be in AB, are you?

Yeah, I was thinking 3/4" wouldn't be a bad route to go - just incase. Only planning on pulling 2x Cat6 through... but you never know what the future holds.

Good to know 1ft is sufficient for code.... think I'll probably opt for at least 2ft, just to be on the safe side. But I'll line it all up and see what spacing looks like when I go out there tonight.

I assumed you in the states...I'm in BC. Feel free to ask me more questions if you got them

 

[Barty1884]

Fibre cannot provide electricity.

Thanks RL. I was just Googling that.

I assumed you in the states...I'm in BC. Feel free to ask me more questions if you got them

Thanks Gorilla, nope, Calgary/area.
I think my questions at this point really just boil down to code & how to ensure it passes inspection. Builder was the one who let me know I could go out and do this, since they're trenching/burying anyway.... I'm assuming they'll sand/cover/tape or flag for me.... but that might be a stretch to assume.

No driveway... it's going to run from the back of the house, under/through a concrete patio pad and under the yard to the detached garage.

 

[GorillaMonsoon]

Thanks RL. I was just Googling that.



Thanks Gorilla, nope, Calgary/area.
I think my questions at this point really just boil down to code & how to ensure it passes inspection. Builder was the one who let me know I could go out and do this, since they're trenching/burying anyway.... I'm assuming they'll sand/cover/tape or flag for me.... but that might be a stretch to assume.

No driveway... it's going to run from the back of the house, under/through a concrete patio pad and under the yard to the detached garage.

Seems pretty straight forward then. Just check if you'll need an expansion joint. For a pull string everyone uses that thin blue or green nylon twine but I find it often wraps around cables and it can easily cut into the PVC if there is a lot on tension on the bends. The best is that yellow braided stuff in a smaller guage, everyone calls it hydro twine out here and there is less of a chance of it sawing into conduit or cables. But for a seeming simple run it shouldn't matter too much.

 

[Barty1884]

Seems pretty straight forward then. Just check if you'll need an expansion joint. For a pull string everyone uses that thin blue or green nylon twine but I find it often wraps around cables and it can easily cut into the PVC if there is a lot on tension on the bends. The best is that yellow braided stuff in a smaller guage, everyone calls it hydro twine out here and there is less of a chance of it sawing into conduit or cables. But for a seeming simple run it shouldn't matter too much.

Is there ever any instance when an expansion joint isn't required?
Best I can find online, is:

Why would suggest, at a 25Ft (assumed, TBD) run, can never be 0 expansion joints?
Expansion is then 10 x 0.25 x .36 = 0.9
So number of joins is 0.9 / 4 = 0.225 joins..... which should be rounded up to 1?

Was thinking of just grabbing 25ft of 3/4 liquid tight flex:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/southwire-liquid-tight-coil-3-4-inch-25ft/1000793381

 

[GorillaMonsoon]

I don't do much resi but we just always used expansion joints with PVC.
I don't think that liquid tight is rated for underground but that stuff is a major pain in the ass to pull through.

 

[Barty1884]

I don't do much resi but we just always used expansion joints with PVC.
I don't think that liquid tight is rated for underground but that stuff is a major pain in the ass to pull through.

Good to know!

Does appear to be rated for underground:

For direct burial and encased in concrete.

But if it's going to be a pain to pull through, maybe I should avoid that route.

 

[Barty1884]

3/4" is down.

Had no choice but the run parraell to the electrical - that's all the space I was working with trenched, and considering where it already came out of the house ..
12" spacing , and I'll run a shielded cable to be safe.

Builder is backfilling and bringing it back up above ground - hence the extra PVC and sweep laying there