News LCDs with 480 Hz Refresh Rate Incoming

watzupken

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I rather they improve monitor panel by moving on to mini LED or OLED. How many people actually will find 240Hz and faster refresh rate useful in their day to day, or even gaming use? While higher refresh rate is obviously better, but this is similar to the case of manufacturers chasing a higher number which makes no meaningful improvement for at least 95% of the population.
 
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I rather they improve monitor panel by moving on to mini LED or OLED. How many people actually will find 240Hz and faster refresh rate useful in their day to day, or even gaming use? While higher refresh rate is obviously better, but this is similar to the case of manufacturers chasing a higher number which makes no meaningful improvement for at least 95% of the population.
about only type of games that WANT the max rate possible are shooting games.

and thats likely aminority as most who play them wont care about that high of frame rate.
 

escksu

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about only type of games that WANT the max rate possible are shooting games.

and thats likely aminority as most who play them wont care about that high of frame rate.

Not all shooters though, only a very small handful like counter-strike. Most of the AAA shooters can't even hit 200fps at 1080p, let alone 480.
 

Pollopesca

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I honestly can’t see much of a difference between 120hz & 240hz. I would imagine the perceived impact would be diminished further beyond that. Then again my eyes might just be sh1t. ¯\(ツ)
 
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Why not 500 or 1000Hz??
480 Hz lines up nicely with two out of the three most widely used base frame rates in media: 24 FPS (for film) and 30 FPS (for 60Hz based countries). 600 Hz would be the minimum refresh rate to include 25 FPS.

OK for willie waving but, otherwise, pointless pushing the refresh rate so high.
I would see it handy for black frame insertion techniques in minimizing motion blur without the loss in brightness. But then again I don't know how well this works at higher refresh rates.
 

BryanFRitt

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"Seriously, an extra 20 Hz to make a nice even 500 Hz please!"

PAL is 50 half frames per second
500 = 5010 = 2 ^ 2 * 5 ^ 3
@500Hz, There's no nice integer multiple for NTSC 60fps, 60*(8+1/3) = 500

NTSC is 60 half frames per second
480 = 608 = 2 ^ 5 * 3 * 5
@480Hz, There's no nice integer multiple for PAL 50fps, 50*(9+3/5) = 480

Multiples of 600Hz are nice integer multiples of 50fps, 60fps, 24fps, etc ...
600 = 50 * 12 = 60 * 10 = 24 * 25 = 2 ^ 3 * 3 * 5 ^ 2
 

Newoak

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I rather they improve monitor panel by moving on to mini LED or OLED. How many people actually will find 240Hz and faster refresh rate useful in their day to day, or even gaming use? While higher refresh rate is obviously better, but this is similar to the case of manufacturers chasing a higher number which makes no meaningful improvement for at least 95% of the population.

I totally agree. I have read it said that we cant see past the billion colors of 10 bit. IPS has sufficient viewing angles. What remains is contrast ratios, dimming zones, achievable through OLED, which burns in, which I wouldn't buy unless its disposably priced, and mini led, for contrast ratios.
I play along with 144 hz and low latency, which is what I got on A 32" Scepter IPS 2k 144hz got on amazon black friday new for $330. But I dont believe that when something intense happens in game, and the screen goes blurry, that its the refresh rate. 60 frames A second seems like A great deal, 144 is way more than we can see. Even refreshing pixels in one or 2 mill seconds is not the source of the problem. I think its software game design. Maybe in some systems its the whole system spiking for A second. Maybe.
When I see doom eternal zooming in for the kill, I tend to think they are covering up for the screen becoming unviewable when things become messy. In G-d I trust.
 

BX4096

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I honestly can’t see much of a difference between 120hz & 240hz. I would imagine the perceived impact would be diminished further beyond that. Then again my eyes might just be sh1t. ¯\(ツ)
I doubt it's your eyes. Considering how little practical impact I (and every family member I asked) saw from switching from 60-75hz to 120hz, have a strong feeling that most of the comments on the subject are made by self-deluded buyers suffering from a choice-supportive bias of one kind or another. I'd like to see an controlled (double-blind and all) scientific study on this that is not made by monitor manufacturers, but as far I am concerned, one has to be pretty dumb to waste money on anything above 120-140hz. Spend it on something more tangible, like better color accuracy, higher resolution, bigger size, and so on. Every time I get a bigger monitor, my mind gets blown and I can't possibly imagine going back to a smaller one. Now that's an upgrade. Going from 200hz to 400hz? Not so much, regardless of how much you can delude yourself into thinking otherwise.
 
I doubt it's your eyes. Considering how little practical impact I (and every family member I asked) saw from switching from 60-75hz to 120hz, have a strong feeling that most of the comments on the subject are made by self-deluded buyers suffering from a choice-supportive bias of one kind or another. I'd like to see an controlled (double-blind and all) scientific study on this that is not made by monitor manufacturers, but as far I am concerned, one has to be pretty dumb to waste money on anything above 120-140hz. Spend it on something more tangible, like better color accuracy, higher resolution, bigger size, and so on. Every time I get a bigger monitor, my mind gets blown and I can't possibly imagine going back to a smaller one. Now that's an upgrade. Going from 200hz to 400hz? Not so much, regardless of how much you can delude yourself into thinking otherwise.
This is about as close as you can get to a study, because I don't think any research firm is going to care enough at the moment to do a more "formal" study.

Though I wish they changed up what kind of target they were shooting at random, because realistically speaking your targets aren't always going to be the ones you want to shoot. You still need to positively identify what it is before shooting at it lest you get chewed out by your teammates.
 

mdrejhon

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I rather they improve monitor panel by moving on to mini LED or OLED. How many people actually will find 240Hz and faster refresh rate useful in their day to day, or even gaming use? While higher refresh rate is obviously better, but this is similar to the case of manufacturers chasing a higher number which makes no meaningful improvement for at least 95% of the population.
OK for willie waving but, otherwise, pointless pushing the refresh rate so high.
High Hz is not just for games.

Doubling Hz halves Windows scrolling motion blur. Modern GPUs can scroll at full frame rate, so you get the full benefits of high Hz in everyday use;

Your web browser scrolling begins to approach CRT motion clarity (without needing strobing) once refresh rates approach about 1000 Hz or thereabouts. 360 H and 480 Hz gets quite close.

Everyday users need to upgrade geometrically to see benefits:

2x upgrades: 60 -> 120 -> 240 -> 480

2.4x upgrades: 60 -> 144 -> 360

While games don't always keep up, if you've used a 120Hz iPad or other, you'll notice scrolling blur is halved. 240Hz has 1/4th scrolling blur of 60Hz and 480Hz has 1/8th scrolling blur of 60Hz, and benefits any scrolling / panning / turning situations in both applications and games.

If you don't pan images all day and you're not a big-time surfer, you may not notice. But people who have bothered to look often notice, as long as the upgradestep is properly sufficiently big (2x) and the average real-world LCD GtG is less than a refresh cycle.
 
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mdrejhon

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mdrejhon

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No... your eyes are HUMAN.
Correct. There's a lot of limiting factors.

120Hz and 240Hz is diminished by a lot of game inability to run at max frame rate, and the slow LCD GtG that is a large percentage of a 240Hz refresh cycle, which can prevent some 240Hz screens from having half the motion blur of 120Hz screens in simple things like web scrolling.

In addition, unsynchronized frame rates add stutter that makes it harder to tell apart frame rates too close to each other on the geometric diminishing-returns curve.

To compensate for that, do a bigger upgradestep such as a 2.5x or 3.0x upgrade.

Now, if you've got:
  • Framerate = Hz
  • GtG = as close to 0 as possible
THEN
  • Motion blur is halved at double Hz
  • Upgradefeels can be even more noticeable if you upgrade by more than 2x Hz for everyday use
That's why 240Hz smartphones are coming out like Sharp Aquos 5, since the scrolling so clear.

Flicker (strobe backlights of old Blur Busters fame) is a band-aid for motion blur reduction, high-Hz-based blur reduction (low persistence sample and hold) is the way to go..
 
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TheOtherOne

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In the beginning... There was 30Hz and all the pros started bragging about it.

OMG! Look at this picture quality, it's just amazing.
Then came 60Hz yay!
OMG! 30Hz sucks bro, once you go 60Hz you aren't going back to 30 ever again!
Then came 75Hz?
OMG! 30 and 60 Hz suck bro, once you go 75Hz you aren't going back to lower ever again!
Then came 120Hz wooo!
OMG! Even 75Hz sucks bro my eyes can totally see the difference, once you go 120Hz you aren't going back to lower ever again!
Then came 240Hz woah!
OMG! 120Hz is for the n00bs, if you want to be REAL gamer then 240Hz is the way to go. My eyes can totally see the difference like day and night, once you go 240Hz you aren't going back to lower ever again!

I can do this all day :geek::geek:
 

mdrejhon

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Yep, TheOtherOne. But bragging rights aside, there's real practical and ergonomic considerations. 120Hz is currently commoditizing at the moment as a freebie feature.

All LG OLEDs has 120Hz available, most new Samsung TVs have 120Hz, XBox/PlayStation support 120Hz, Samsung Galaxy phones 120Hz, and the next Apple iPhone is predicted to have 120Hz.

Even the cheap $500 TCL TVs are now getting 120Hz at the moment.

Rumor is that DELL/HP will add 120Hz to their office monitors by the end of the decade, too.

I even expect 240Hz to be commoditized eventually (in a decade-ish). It'll be just like discussing 4K or 8K in year 1990s -- worthless premium features but tomorrow's commoditized features.

CRT did not need high Hz due to their natural flicker (which reduced blur), but combining "blur-free" + "flicker-free" simultaneously requires higher Hz, from a science & laws of physics perspective.

Blurless concurrently with flickerless requires extreme frame rates and extreme Hz to mimic analog real-life motion -- for people who hate flicker-based motion blur reduction but also simultaneously hate display motion blur. We can't do analog motion, so ultrahigh frame rate at ultra high Hz is the way to go.

Also, not everyone sees the same way. Some are picky with color, others are not. Yet more are picky about tearing, others are not. Some are color blind too. Or motion-insensitive (Akinetopsia). Or need eyeglasses.

On average, we probably really didn't need 4K for grandmas who couldn't tell apart VHS versus DVD, but 4K still replaced 1080p at the stores anyway. All the Average Joes that left their HDTV box in standard-definition mode, tells the whole story.

Regardless, High-Hz commoditization is much more gradual, but still has tangible benefits for humankind.

Just like some of us have a flicker sensitivity, huge numbers have a motion blur sensitivity (gets motion sick playing games unless they turn on ULMB, or switch to a plasma/CRT display). So often we can't have cake and eat it too...

Increasingly, several review writers who's followed the Hz geometric upgrade curve, have begun to notice the ergonomic pattern. The ergonomic benefits are visible in things like smooth scrolling / panning of all kinds of applications. Who wants the flicker of strobing? Hz-based blur reduction is superior, since it's flickerfree.

The esports player can go with refresh rate incrementalism (e.g. 120 - 144 - 240 - 360) but everyday users need to jump bigger, such as 60-120-240-480, or even 60->240, or 144->480 to get their "wow" money's worth in everyday-use upgradefeel, assuming GPU can keep up with scrolling/panning at that framerate in most 2D apps.

Future frame rate amplification technologies will eventually provide cheap 1000fps, though it will take time (a good example is Oculus ASW 2.0 and NVIDIA DLSS 2.0), those give about a 2:1 amplification ratio. Over the course of this decade (and next), upcoming new framerate-acceleration tech coming are able to provide eventual 4:1 then 5:1 then even 10:1 ratios, that are necessary for flickerless motion blur reduction on ultra-Hz displays.

In private tests, everyone (who was not motion-insensitive) at all ages could tell a 3x difference between Hz (120Hz-120fps versus 360Hz-360fps browser scrolling), despite the LCD GtG bottlenecking it to approximately only 2x-2.5x difference.

The less motion sensitive may require 3x+ upgrades (e.g. 60Hz vs 200Hz, or 120Hz versus 360Hz) to really get the wow-effect, but the general rule of thumb is 2x upgrade, assuming LCD GtG is fast (e.g. TN or those new "1ms IPS" panels of 2020+)

More non-esports writers need to give this coverage, as Hz-based blur reduction for everyday use (scrolling, panning) is a highly underrated ergonomic benefit not widely advertised.

Especially the lack of media/writer knowledge about the geometric curve required for everyday humans to see the diminishing curve of returns. But several are starting to notice once they get more familiar with a variety of refresh rates in everyday non-gaming use;

Mainstreamable refresh rates will proceed for a long time this century, as tech progress and economics permits. The refresh rate race is a slower trickle-down than the resolution race.
 
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