Let's have a civilized conversation about PCs vs consoles

[weberdarren97]

Hello all,

First of all, I don't know if this is in the correct category. I won't complain if a moderator moves it.

I am sure that the fact that I even made this thread in the first place has triggered many of you, but I encourage you to read through this post before giving angry replies.

Let's get a few things straight:
1) I view consoles as a separate market from PC gaming.
2) I love-hate all electronics equally. Neither consoles or PCs are excluded from this.
3) I've played on consoles and on PCs. I don't have complaints from either one that aren't matched in some form by the other.
4) I would like for this to be a civilized conversation. Stating facts (even if they show a drawback of one side or the other) is fine with me. Telling console gamers that PC gaming is the only gaming and that those who disagree are wrong is not okay with me.
5) I'll contribute to the conversation and I'll try not to disturb whatever direction it seems to be heading. Unless, of course, that direction is fanboy-ism. In which case, I'd like everyone to read the bottom half of this post before continuing to derail the conversation.
6) Fanboys, please use your inside voices.


Okay. Now here's what I'd like to talk about:
1) Do devs for consoles really have less work to do to optimize a game for consoles than for PC?
2) Does driver optimization (or lack thereof) play a significant role in the not-so-optimized nature of the PC gaming market?
3) Does the simplicity of console setup (plug in, connect to TV, ready to go) play a significant role in how many people buy consoles instead of PCs?
4) Does the idea that PCs are complicated, hard to build and full of viruses play a significant role in how many people buy consoles instead of PCs?
5) Does the fact that updates to games to optimize for newer hardware may ruin performance on older hardware play a significant role in how many people buy consoles instead of PCs?
6) Does the convenience of the Steam Store play a significant role in how many people buy PCs instead of consoles?
7) Does the idea of a silent cooling system play a significant role in how many people buy PCs instead of consoles?
8) Does the convenience of upgrading your PC without needing to simply replace it play a significant role in how many people buy PCs instead of consoles?
9) Start your own topic with the following guidelines in place: a) the topic is not simply against consoles or console gamers, b) the topic is not simply against PCs or PC gamers, c) the topic does not call out people on either side of the conversation (this also includes readers who haven't replied yet).

I hope you can all understand that I'm setting aside my love for custom PCs in an effort to have this conversation. I hope that you can all appreciate this gesture and put forth the same effort so we can have a civilized conversation about these topics.

If I've touched a nerve, please just PM me instead of blowing up this thread.

Thanks in advance to all that participate without derailing the conversation.

-Darren

 

[Eximo]

I think you've laid out a lot of good pros and cons.

For most people, one can assume it is the complexity of managing your own PC. Obviously the younger the audiences the more likely you are to see things like the Nintendo. Adults that aren't computer savvy gravitate towards the PlayStation and Xbox. But there does seem to be a shift. Since young people who are just getting to having their own incomes pretty much grew up with PCs and are internet literate it is a lot easier to get into PC building and gaming.

Steam came out just as I was graduating high school, and back then it was a bit of a resource hog and I didn't like it much. Now it is pretty much the defacto PC gaming platform. That and the icky Origin...

Some of the technical questions are on a per game basis. I imagine some titles are hard to port one way or the other. Given that the primary consoles are now essentially PC hardware, more so then at any other time, I don't think there should be as much of a barrier. Comes down to cost/profits and remaining time.

Were coming up against another bottleneck though. The consoles are going to stick with what they've got for some years yet for backwards compatibility. While the PC crowd is going to move onto the latest engines and APIs. Direct X 10 was hardly a blip on the computer world, so few things were built that made it necessary. I'm curious to see how DX12 carries on. A lot more indie development studios then the last time this happened.

 

[weberdarren97]

I think you've laid out a lot of good pros and cons.

For most people, one can assume it is the complexity of managing your own PC. Obviously the younger the audiences the more likely you are to see things like the Nintendo. Adults that aren't computer savvy gravitate towards the PlayStation and Xbox. But there does seem to be a shift. Since young people who are just getting to having their own incomes pretty much grew up with PCs and are internet literate it is a lot easier to get into PC building and gaming.

Steam came out just as I was graduating high school, and back then it was a bit of a resource hog and I didn't like it much. Now it is pretty much the defacto PC gaming platform. That and the icky Origin...

Some of the technical questions are on a per game basis. I imagine some titles are hard to port one way or the other. Given that the primary consoles are now essentially PC hardware, more so then at any other time, I don't think there should be as much of a barrier. Comes down to cost/profits and remaining time.

Were coming up against another bottleneck though. The consoles are going to stick with what they've got for some years yet for backwards compatibility. While the PC crowd is going to move onto the latest engines and APIs. Direct X 10 was hardly a blip on the computer world, so few things were built that made it necessary. I'm curious to see how DX12 carries on. A lot more indie development studios then the last time this happened.

Thanks for the reply. It seems you understand exactly what this thread is about. You've laid out some really handy information for many different audiences.

Also, when I saw your profile picture, it reminded me of the scene in Pacific Rim when the Jaeger (missing the accent because English keyboard) falls to its knees on the beech in front of a grandfather and grandson looking for something good with a metal detector. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME1Fr9MphtA if breast impalement is too much for you, skip to 45 seconds in.

 

[Eximo]

I've seen the film, which had its moments, but they really didn't spend any time on the technobabble. And some scenes make absolutely no sense from a physics, or even writing, perspective.

It is fan CGI art for the Battletech universe (or a screencap from the opening to MW3, can't recall) A Summoner(Thor) 70 ton omni-mech.

Mechwarrior derailment:

Game is basically a cross between a flight sim and a tank sim. Configurable weapons and destructible components (one of the earliest games to have that as I recall)

Good news is that 2017 looks to be a good year for Mechwarriors. PGI is going to make Mechwarrior Mercenaries 5 (Unreal Engine). And another company is making, effectively, a new Mech Commander game, though turn based. (The last MechWarrior 5 got sued out of existence for an old grudge that happened when it was only a tabletop game, 30-40 years ago...)

Only really active games are Mechwarrior Online, on CryEngine 3. And maybe MW: Living Legends as a mod for Crysis Wars. I didn't think there were active players, but it looks like some hardcore fans are still playing it.

Microsoft Game Studios made Mechwarrior 3, 4, and 4 Mercenaries. Activision made 2 and 2 Mercenaries. The original was splattered across consoles and PCs of the time in various forms. Made a brief appearance on the Xbox as Mech Assault, which kind of missed the point.

 

[Eximo]

Your one point regarding the ease of upgrade ability is a good point. It is no longer a market where you have to do a complete PC rebuild every few years. (Though I still do) You can just replace the GPU and carry on to the next generation of gaming.

So instead of having to get a new console generation every seven years at $400-500, plus expensive accessories. You can pick up a new mid-range GPU for $250 every 3 years or so.

One could also argue that a PC is more versatile for also doing home/business tasks and makes more sense from an economic perspective.

Though given the number of people using laptops, particularly aged 18-25, this doesn't apply as much to them.

 

[weberdarren97]

Your one point regarding the ease of upgrade ability is a good point. It is no longer a market where you have to do a complete PC rebuild every few years. (Though I still do) You can just replace the GPU and carry on to the next generation of gaming.

So instead of having to get a new console generation every seven years at $400-500, plus expensive accessories. You can pick up a new mid-range GPU for $250 every 3 years or so.

One could also argue that a PC is more versatile for also doing home/business tasks and makes more sense from an economic perspective.

More excellent points made.

Though given the number of people using laptops, particularly aged 18-25, this doesn't apply as much to them.

I have a Dell Latitude D620 that I take with me to create invoices. Does that count?

 

[Paul NZ]

I have both. PC and Xbox1. But I dont play any games on the PC's.

Never had any probs building a PC. I've built 3. 2 socket 775's and one socket 1150 (this PC)

High end videocards here arent cheap. So I'd rather play games on the Xbox1

 

[weberdarren97]

I have both. PC and Xbox1. But I dont play any games on the PC's.

Never had any probs building a PC. I've built 3. 2 socket 775's and one socket 1150 (this PC)

High end videocards here arent cheap. So I'd rather play games on the Xbox1

Thank you for your contribution.

I think that the use of the "I statements" like "I do this" or "I feel" are much better at not being offensive than saying "people do this" or "gamers feel this way". I'm glad people read my post instead of just blowing up this thread. I have got a few PMs saying that this is a bad idea, but it seems to be going pretty well.

 

[Paul NZ]

If you do dodgy things online / get dodgy files, then you will get viruses.

People seem to think antivirus programs will protect you. Well they may protect your computer.

But it doesnt mean they'll stop all viruses. Most viruses can and will disable an AV program.

Myself I dont bother with them. They're a waste of money. I dont have any separate anti virus programs on any of these.

They'll either slow it down, or crash it. It doesnt matter, which one you install

 

[KittyFish62]

Honestly, I don't like consoles at all, and I like PCs much better. However, I think consoles COULD have been much better. It's that stinkin' membership and lack of features. Gold membership and whatever playstation membership is is just terrible. I hate having to pay for multiplayer each month or year. That's one of the most major features in gaming! And plus it has so many less features the a PC has. If it just had those two things fixed, it would have been perfect. Consoles would just be a low-end gaming PC and without the hassles of fixing together a PC and would be perfect for everyone. Meanwhile, a PC could be a high-end luxury item, 1080p or 4k gaming and basically a life sucker. See what I mean?

 

[Eximo]

I have a Dell Latitude D620 that I take with me to create invoices. Does that count?

Ah the venerable D620, got one of those for my first corporate job. Luckily the job was to get rid of them and deploy Windows 7 on new hardware. I still have the shift key, it fell off, along with E. They were buying hinges and power bricks off of ebay towards the end.

 

[imrazor]

Personally, the reason I don't use consoles is the controllers. My very first console experience was an Atari 2600 with joysticks. Shortly after that I graduated to an Amiga 500 with mouse and keyboard. I've never felt comfortable with console controllers, even after logging 40 or 50 hours on a Playstation 2. I'm always having to look at the buttons and trying to remember what the bloody triangle does. Or does the square make me jump?

That's the main reason, but other factors also keep me from investing in a console. I like the notion of a modular system that I can upgrade as I need to. I also like having a multi-function device that can do more than just play games (or watch movies.) And I also like tinkering and modifying my system. These reasons may not be applicable to the general gaming public, but that's where I'm coming from.

 

[Eximo]

I found the greatest success with Xbox's funky mode for the controllers. If I recall it inverts the look up/down on the right stick, but also swaps the rotation and strafe between the joysticks. For some reason that makes sense to a keyboard warrior brain. I didn't even use the mouse until I played Quake III and Counterstrike, I can still do well against people using only the keyboard in UT99.

There haven't been many, but I think more MMOs should have made it to console and allow for cross platform play. I know people that PC game exclusively with Xbox controllers. And there are modules for using a keyboard and mouse with consoles (they emulate controllers)

There was that brief period where you could run Linux on the Playstation 2, assuming you avoided all updates after a certain point. That made it far more versatile than a console. There was a PS2 server cluster at the university.

There is also the customization that PCs offer over consoles. You can mod games, controls, and all kinds of other facets to gameplay at your whim on a PC.

 

[imrazor]

@Eximo Wasn't that the PS3? I had a Mac running Linux PowerPC for a while, so the notion was appealing. At the time, though, I couldn't afford a PC and a PS3. And by the time I could, Sony had pulled the plug on Linux. Is Yellowdog Linux still around?

 

[weberdarren97]

Honestly, I don't like consoles at all, and I like PCs much better. However, I think consoles COULD have been much better. It's that stinkin' membership and lack of features. Gold membership and whatever playstation membership is is just terrible. I hate having to pay for multiplayer each month or year. That's one of the most major features in gaming! And plus it has so many less features the a PC has. If it just had those two things fixed, it would have been perfect. Consoles would just be a low-end gaming PC and without the hassles of fixing together a PC and would be perfect for everyone. Meanwhile, a PC could be a high-end luxury item, 1080p or 4k gaming and basically a life sucker. See what I mean?

Thank you for sharing. However, upon reading this response, I found it to be a bit one-sided. I'm not going to argue. Rather, I'll throw in the cost of antivirus programs and scams on PCs to counter the cost of membership on consoles.

Personally, the reason I don't use consoles is the controllers. My very first console experience was an Atari 2600 with joysticks. Shortly after that I graduated to an Amiga 500 with mouse and keyboard. I've never felt comfortable with console controllers, even after logging 40 or 50 hours on a Playstation 2. I'm always having to look at the buttons and trying to remember what the bloody triangle does. Or does the square make me jump?

That's the main reason, but other factors also keep me from investing in a console. I like the notion of a modular system that I can upgrade as I need to. I also like having a multi-function device that can do more than just play games (or watch movies.) And I also like tinkering and modifying my system. These reasons may not be applicable to the general gaming public, but that's where I'm coming from.

Thank you for sharing. Unfortunately, I found this to be generally against consoles but it doesn't look like you meant any harm by it. So I'm going to fire back with light weaponry.

I play Rocket League on PC. I actually prefer the controllers because I have control over how sharp the car turns. Yes, it took me almost an hour of playing with which buttons were set to do what to get it to be more friendly to the game, but that drawback exists on keyboard as well. I often find myself remapping controls no matter what I'm using. Maybe because of my stubby little fingers? If you watch John Oliver, you'll get the Donald Trump reference there.

 

[weberdarren97]

I have a Dell Latitude D620 that I take with me to create invoices. Does that count?

Ah the venerable D620, got one of those for my first corporate job. Luckily the job was to get rid of them and deploy Windows 7 on new hardware. I still have the shift key, it fell off, along with E. They were buying hinges and power bricks off of ebay towards the end.

I legit had to Google venerable to even tell what you meant. Jeez I'm stupid. xD

I found the greatest success with Xbox's funky mode for the controllers. If I recall it inverts the look up/down on the right stick, but also swaps the rotation and strafe between the joysticks. For some reason that makes sense to a keyboard warrior brain. I didn't even use the mouse until I played Quake III and Counterstrike, I can still do well against people using only the keyboard in UT99.

There haven't been many, but I think more MMOs should have made it to console and allow for cross platform play. I know people that PC game exclusively with Xbox controllers. And there are modules for using a keyboard and mouse with consoles (they emulate controllers)

There was that brief period where you could run Linux on the Playstation 2, assuming you avoided all updates after a certain point. That made it far more versatile than a console. There was a PS2 server cluster at the university.

You can run Linux on a PS2? This is a whole new world for me. I've gotta try this out. I wonder if I can find a PS2 that doesn't have the updates... I'm gonna have too much fun.

There is also the customization that PCs offer over consoles. You can mod games, controls, and all kinds of other facets to gameplay at your whim on a PC.

To be fair, PCs can mod games made for consoles and they'll still work for the console afterwards. If the PS2 can run Linux, it may be able to do this modding instead of the PCs.

 

[imrazor]

Personally, the reason I don't use consoles is the controllers. My very first console experience was an Atari 2600 with joysticks. Shortly after that I graduated to an Amiga 500 with mouse and keyboard. I've never felt comfortable with console controllers, even after logging 40 or 50 hours on a Playstation 2. I'm always having to look at the buttons and trying to remember what the bloody triangle does. Or does the square make me jump?

That's the main reason, but other factors also keep me from investing in a console. I like the notion of a modular system that I can upgrade as I need to. I also like having a multi-function device that can do more than just play games (or watch movies.) And I also like tinkering and modifying my system. These reasons may not be applicable to the general gaming public, but that's where I'm coming from.

Thank you for sharing. Unfortunately, I found this to be generally against consoles but it doesn't look like you meant any harm by it. So I'm going to fire back with light weaponry.

I play Rocket League on PC. I actually prefer the controllers because I have control over how sharp the car turns. Yes, it took me almost an hour of playing with which buttons were set to do what to get it to be more friendly to the game, but that drawback exists on keyboard as well. I often find myself remapping controls no matter what I'm using. Maybe because of my stubby little fingers? If you watch John Oliver, you'll get the Donald Trump reference there.

Really, I didn't mean any harm. I have stubby little fingers too, and no matter what I do, they just can't learn to use a console controller properly. I'm always fumbling around with the things. So I'm stuck in PC land whether I want to be or not. Fortunately, I prefer PCs anyway.

 

[weberdarren97]

Personally, the reason I don't use consoles is the controllers. My very first console experience was an Atari 2600 with joysticks. Shortly after that I graduated to an Amiga 500 with mouse and keyboard. I've never felt comfortable with console controllers, even after logging 40 or 50 hours on a Playstation 2. I'm always having to look at the buttons and trying to remember what the bloody triangle does. Or does the square make me jump?

That's the main reason, but other factors also keep me from investing in a console. I like the notion of a modular system that I can upgrade as I need to. I also like having a multi-function device that can do more than just play games (or watch movies.) And I also like tinkering and modifying my system. These reasons may not be applicable to the general gaming public, but that's where I'm coming from.

Thank you for sharing. Unfortunately, I found this to be generally against consoles but it doesn't look like you meant any harm by it. So I'm going to fire back with light weaponry.

I play Rocket League on PC. I actually prefer the controllers because I have control over how sharp the car turns. Yes, it took me almost an hour of playing with which buttons were set to do what to get it to be more friendly to the game, but that drawback exists on keyboard as well. I often find myself remapping controls no matter what I'm using. Maybe because of my stubby little fingers? If you watch John Oliver, you'll get the Donald Trump reference there.

Really, I didn't mean any harm. I have stubby little fingers too, and no matter what I do, they just can't learn to use a console controller properly. I'm always fumbling around with the things. So I'm stuck in PC land whether I want to be or not. Fortunately, I prefer PCs anyway.

My friends call me "Ham Hands" because I always max out the analog sticks on controllers and wonder why I don't have any fine control over speed. However, I make the same mistakes on keyboard and mouse. I move the mouse too quickly for my own good and end up scrolling right past the target. With a keyboard, I reach for keys so quickly that I end up hitting multiple keys. I guess I'm just not very good at games.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Well one thing that bugs me about PC gaming is the fact that like right now I'm trying to play Call of Duty but the playerbase is too small. Some games you just have to play on console if you want any real playerbase. I'm not too fond of the direction Sony and Microsoft consoles are headung though. I was a fan of the Xbox 360, I think that was the perfect console. It didn't require installing games to the hard disc, as they could read right off the disc. And the interface was wonderful (Xbox One interface is not as good).

I've always had a lot of fun on consoles because of the friend-making process through the Xbox or PS4 friend system. Steam has friends but it's not the same to me.

 

[weberdarren97]

Well one thing that bugs me about PC gaming is the fact that like right now I'm trying to play Call of Duty but the playerbase is too small. Some games you just have to play on console if you want any real playerbase. I'm not too fond of the direction Sony and Microsoft consoles are headung though. I was a fan of the Xbox 360, I think that was the perfect console. It didn't require installing games to the hard disc, as they could read right off the disc. And the interface was wonderful (Xbox One interface is not as good).

I've always had a lot of fun on consoles because of the friend-making process through the Xbox or PS4 friend system. Steam has friends but it's not the same to me.

First of all, what happened to your Judas Priest playlist on YouTube? I never got around to saving it to my account and then you either deleted it or made it private. *cries*

Back to the topic at hand. I once tried overclocking a GameCube. My friend was able to take control of the CPU, but it was worthless thanks to the limited speed at which it could read the disk. With the GameCube, the optical drive was the limiting factor. I see this in the Xbox 360 as well. Load times were terrible considering how fast the CPU really was for its time.

Now to follow my own rule and give a drawback for PCs as well. Optical obsolescence. I know many people that still buy games for PCs that are installed off of optical disks. The install times are absolutely horrid. For any PC games that are played entirely off of the optical disk, the load times for things inside the game (like levels, maps, worlds, etc) are also horrid.

 

[Eximo]

Optical obsolescence is another excellent point that brings up an annoyance that is getting worse. Though it now basically applies to both PC and Console, zero day patches cripple some people's internet access/plans. Not much point in having the game on the disc if 80% of the game has to be re-downloaded anyway. I have decent internet, so it is not a big deal to download a 20GB game, but I can't imagine what it is like out in the country with something like satellite or dial up.

Linux was available on the PS2, and then available on the 1st gen PS3 (Fat) only, if I recall correctly. Big outcry when they released a patch that broke that functionality. I think there was a lawsuit that slightly redefined who actually owns the hardware in a console.

 

[weberdarren97]

Optical obsolescence is another excellent point that brings up an annoyance that is getting worse. Though it now basically applies to both PC and Console, zero day patches cripple some people's internet access/plans. Not much point in having the game on the disc if 80% of the game has to be re-downloaded anyway. I have decent internet, so it is not a big deal to download a 20GB game, but I can't imagine what it is like out in the country with something like satellite or dial up.

My brother had a game that was I think 25GB on the blu ray disk for PC, but wouldn't launch until he downloaded the 78GB day zero patch. I'll have to ask him what game this was but I think it's pretty popular (hopefully more so on the Steam Store than on optical disks).

My PC (wired) gets roughly 140Mb/s down and 15Mb/s up (Comcast UGH). His PC (wireless) gets 20Mb/s down and 10Mb/s up. It took eleven hours to download the game!

Linux was available on the PS2, and then available on the 1st gen PS3 (Fat) only, if I recall correctly. Big outcry when they released a patch that broke that functionality. I think there was a lawsuit that slightly redefined who actually owns the hardware in a console.

That's not stopping me. I've found a few possible contenders that haven't had the updates. However, I'm still gathering information on the actual Linux install process and trying to figure out which version of Linux would be best for the system (or if only one is compatible).