Liberal logic
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outlw6669
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- Dec 4, 2006
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Sorry but a software engineer is hardly a rocket scientist.
And seriously accomplished.... in the fast food industry....
Perhaps you could expand on how your government is NOT fundamentally messed up then?
Sorry, but the reasons you list do not really sell me that your system of politics (of the rich, by the rich, for the rich) is not shot to hell...
Reynod
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- Mar 26, 2007
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I should add we have the same problem at the moment here ... too many pollies who are simply lacking in cognitive ability.
To be fair however, you should also consider that their ability to solve problems is made all the much harder by the lack of funds to address fundamental issues.
Be they conservative or democrat ... having an ecomonic downturn and no funds to address issues is a double whammy.
Common sense would suggest a more conservative government in power would be better able to impose the cuts needed ... but ... with so many people hurting financially it is more palatable to vote for a party that traditionally will try to take better care of the people's needs at the lower end of the social strata.
What's the answer ... tough choices need to be made.
To be fair however, you should also consider that their ability to solve problems is made all the much harder by the lack of funds to address fundamental issues.
Be they conservative or democrat ... having an ecomonic downturn and no funds to address issues is a double whammy.
Common sense would suggest a more conservative government in power would be better able to impose the cuts needed ... but ... with so many people hurting financially it is more palatable to vote for a party that traditionally will try to take better care of the people's needs at the lower end of the social strata.
What's the answer ... tough choices need to be made.
outlw6669
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I will say this, it is quite a good thing that the average American (no matter how misguided or misled) is finally taking a vetted interest in Politics.
I just wish that the vocal minority, media and indeed the majority of people would take a more thought out and rational view on their nations future.
Rhetoric and biased political pandering from both sides of the government only serve to incite hate, partisanship and extremism.
Just a thought, but is it not the rich business people (and their lobbyists throwing out cash) who caused many of Americas issues?
With this in mind, why would you want to vote another person with a vetted interest in big business into high office?
Even though he may have come from humble beginnings, Mr. Cain has a vested interest in big business.
As a side note, while my new home may not be perfect, I do find its political system much more sane than Americas.
I found a quite interesting Dissertation Comparing Germany and the United States and especially liked the following quote from it.
I just wish that the vocal minority, media and indeed the majority of people would take a more thought out and rational view on their nations future.
Rhetoric and biased political pandering from both sides of the government only serve to incite hate, partisanship and extremism.
Just a thought, but is it not the rich business people (and their lobbyists throwing out cash) who caused many of Americas issues?
With this in mind, why would you want to vote another person with a vetted interest in big business into high office?
Even though he may have come from humble beginnings, Mr. Cain has a vested interest in big business.
As a side note, while my new home may not be perfect, I do find its political system much more sane than Americas.
I found a quite interesting Dissertation Comparing Germany and the United States and especially liked the following quote from it.
- Jul 14, 2004
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Let me rephrase my initial post:
"I am a white 65 year old male.
If I dislike the policies of Obama (a black man), I am a racist.
If I like the policies of Cain (another black man), I am ... still a racist.
Can someone explain? "
How am I in error? It is liberal logic. Harry Belafonte's quote was only one of many of that sort from the U.S. left.
outlw,
"A welfare system increases individual freedom, because it lets people experiment without the threat of catastrophic failure."
But what do you do when it leads to third generation welfare families? I call it "rewarding bad behavior".
With respect to U.S. federal taxes, the worker bees currently outnumber the drones 52% to 48%. What happens when the drones become the majority?
"I am a white 65 year old male.
If I dislike the policies of Obama (a black man), I am a racist.
If I like the policies of Cain (another black man), I am ... still a racist.
Can someone explain? "
How am I in error? It is liberal logic. Harry Belafonte's quote was only one of many of that sort from the U.S. left.
outlw,
"A welfare system increases individual freedom, because it lets people experiment without the threat of catastrophic failure."
But what do you do when it leads to third generation welfare families? I call it "rewarding bad behavior".
With respect to U.S. federal taxes, the worker bees currently outnumber the drones 52% to 48%. What happens when the drones become the majority?
JAYDEEJOHN
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- Aug 23, 2006
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Please understand this is my opinion only, and of course I may be wrong, so, here goes
I believe certain groups think alike, even of opposite POVs.
To explain this, answering the question is pertinent to a greater understanding of the vast majority of people
In the past, and Im sure within the minds of some hard core conservatives, many have a narrow POV on things regarding certain people, certain scenarios, the way to respond, the weight of certain things within their lives on how important it is to them.
Some have been racist, in many ways, but almost always by putting some people in a box
Now, just change a few words here, and the same can be said for hard core liberals, where racism is defined only as the old way of purely black and white, and not seeing that some of them also, being so narrow minded, expect a seperate but equal way is only normal, and right, where certain things, such as social issues, weigh much more in their lives.
Id suggest this
If a conservative goes to the point of admiring a black man, a successful black man, that this is one of the greatest respects a conservative can give ANY man
If a liberal denies a conservative this right, its only in their minds, shouldnt be respected, as they simply dont understand that this is the very thing they should want from a conservative white male, because they are awash in motives from the other side, and doesnt give the respect to the other side the conservatives gives the liberals, since that is essential to conservatives for it to have any weight to begin with.
Both are accused of putting people in boxes IMO, but one side seems to find it hard to understand the other, then we have this thread, a simple response from a mindset that allows for no understanding like Belafontes comments, as well as no respect.
I believe certain groups think alike, even of opposite POVs.
To explain this, answering the question is pertinent to a greater understanding of the vast majority of people
In the past, and Im sure within the minds of some hard core conservatives, many have a narrow POV on things regarding certain people, certain scenarios, the way to respond, the weight of certain things within their lives on how important it is to them.
Some have been racist, in many ways, but almost always by putting some people in a box
Now, just change a few words here, and the same can be said for hard core liberals, where racism is defined only as the old way of purely black and white, and not seeing that some of them also, being so narrow minded, expect a seperate but equal way is only normal, and right, where certain things, such as social issues, weigh much more in their lives.
Id suggest this
If a conservative goes to the point of admiring a black man, a successful black man, that this is one of the greatest respects a conservative can give ANY man
If a liberal denies a conservative this right, its only in their minds, shouldnt be respected, as they simply dont understand that this is the very thing they should want from a conservative white male, because they are awash in motives from the other side, and doesnt give the respect to the other side the conservatives gives the liberals, since that is essential to conservatives for it to have any weight to begin with.
Both are accused of putting people in boxes IMO, but one side seems to find it hard to understand the other, then we have this thread, a simple response from a mindset that allows for no understanding like Belafontes comments, as well as no respect.
outlw6669
Splendid
- Dec 4, 2006
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Yeah, I had to google Cain as well.
Must be new in the news, never heard of him before
No, I think no one would be served by an impractical idealist or a blindly partisan advocate (yes, I had to google the official definition 😛).
And I do agree that successful businesses are an important part of society.
Where I disagree however is in who should be given preferential treatment.
It is my firm belief that government and businesses should exist to serve the people.
After all, what is the point in running a business if it does not benefit society in some way?
If you can skew that benefit more towards the majority and less towards the affluent upper crust, I fail to see the issue.
The way I see it, the purpose of government is to protect the people from threats both external and internal.
A successful economy (and therefore successful businesses) is an important factor in this.
Unfortunately, unregulated greed serves only the minority who already have the means.
Sorry, but I think you are overreacting a bit with this statement.
No one is advocating that the state fully fund the lives of 'welfare families', simply that everyone has the basic human right to food, shelter, medical care and education.
Anything beyond the basic requirements for civil live is beyond the scope of a proper welfare system.
You want a TV, car, fancy clothes, cell phone, ect. then you must benefit society in some way same as everyone else.
Turn this argument on its head for a moment.
How many disadvantaged people in America turn to crime because they have no hope to provide themselves with the basics (food, shelter, medical care, education)?
Now, when some one like this does turn to crime, who will have to pay and how?
The obvious answer is that that the criminal will have to pay.
They will lose the majority of their freedoms for an excessive amount of time.
In return, ironically, they will gain the very things they had to turn to crime to obtain.
In prison you have free food, shelter, medical care and education.
Who else looses?
The tax payers!
To start with you have to pay for their food, shelter, medical costs and education.
Additionally you have to pay for the expanded police force to 'protect' the population, a judicial system to handle their cases, a large and expensive facility to house them along with a large group of permanent body of guards.
There is, of course, one group that does benefit from this.
The private prison firms and, indirectly through lobbyists, the politicians.
Well, the politicians benefit twice.
They also get brownie points for protecting the populace from this welfare sucking scum :/
Now, my argument is this.
If you are going to have to house, feed, educate and care for these people anyways, why not cut out the prison and give them some hope for a successful future?
I mean, it is not like it can cost more to render basic humane assistance then to provide the same assistance with the added cost of incarceration, could it?
Must be new in the news, never heard of him before
No, I think no one would be served by an impractical idealist or a blindly partisan advocate (yes, I had to google the official definition 😛).
And I do agree that successful businesses are an important part of society.
Where I disagree however is in who should be given preferential treatment.
It is my firm belief that government and businesses should exist to serve the people.
After all, what is the point in running a business if it does not benefit society in some way?
If you can skew that benefit more towards the majority and less towards the affluent upper crust, I fail to see the issue.
The way I see it, the purpose of government is to protect the people from threats both external and internal.
A successful economy (and therefore successful businesses) is an important factor in this.
Unfortunately, unregulated greed serves only the minority who already have the means.
Sorry, but I think you are overreacting a bit with this statement.
No one is advocating that the state fully fund the lives of 'welfare families', simply that everyone has the basic human right to food, shelter, medical care and education.
Anything beyond the basic requirements for civil live is beyond the scope of a proper welfare system.
You want a TV, car, fancy clothes, cell phone, ect. then you must benefit society in some way same as everyone else.
Turn this argument on its head for a moment.
How many disadvantaged people in America turn to crime because they have no hope to provide themselves with the basics (food, shelter, medical care, education)?
Now, when some one like this does turn to crime, who will have to pay and how?
The obvious answer is that that the criminal will have to pay.
They will lose the majority of their freedoms for an excessive amount of time.
In return, ironically, they will gain the very things they had to turn to crime to obtain.
In prison you have free food, shelter, medical care and education.
Who else looses?
The tax payers!
To start with you have to pay for their food, shelter, medical costs and education.
Additionally you have to pay for the expanded police force to 'protect' the population, a judicial system to handle their cases, a large and expensive facility to house them along with a large group of permanent body of guards.
There is, of course, one group that does benefit from this.
The private prison firms and, indirectly through lobbyists, the politicians.
Well, the politicians benefit twice.
They also get brownie points for protecting the populace from this welfare sucking scum :/
Now, my argument is this.
If you are going to have to house, feed, educate and care for these people anyways, why not cut out the prison and give them some hope for a successful future?
I mean, it is not like it can cost more to render basic humane assistance then to provide the same assistance with the added cost of incarceration, could it?
JAYDEEJOHN
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Crime is cool, its fun, and is often overlooked in some areas, and knowledge of crime, witnesses etc, often dont share info, and not because theyre scared always either, they too dont want intrusion , government intrusion in their lives.
If you can convince someone its important to be a giver and not a taker, then go for it, as someone said on another forum from another site, many in the EU were convinced, weaker, corrupt countries such as Greece would change once they had what they needed, not so?
If you can convince someone its important to be a giver and not a taker, then go for it, as someone said on another forum from another site, many in the EU were convinced, weaker, corrupt countries such as Greece would change once they had what they needed, not so?
- Jul 14, 2004
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jdj,
That was Prime Minister Chamberlain's (British PM, pre WWII) reasoning about why he tried to reach an accomodation with Hitler. He [strike]thought[/strike] hoped Hitler would stop after he took Austria. After all, by then, Hitler would feel more "secure" or something.
We all know how well that worked out.
I understand all that. But where do you draw the line?
I realize that prevention is less expensive than the consequenses - whether you are talking about crime or health. Years ago, many health plans in the USA would not pay for preventive care. Even then, that struck me as being particularly short sighted.
That was Prime Minister Chamberlain's (British PM, pre WWII) reasoning about why he tried to reach an accomodation with Hitler. He [strike]thought[/strike] hoped Hitler would stop after he took Austria. After all, by then, Hitler would feel more "secure" or something.
We all know how well that worked out.
I understand all that. But where do you draw the line?
I realize that prevention is less expensive than the consequenses - whether you are talking about crime or health. Years ago, many health plans in the USA would not pay for preventive care. Even then, that struck me as being particularly short sighted.
outlw6669
Splendid
- Dec 4, 2006
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Ah, now that is the question.
Do you offer a disadvantaged family a small subsidized two room apartment or are cots in a communal living hall sufficient?
Should they have a food card so they can plan their own meals or have access to a mess hall?
Should you assist in providing basic transportation or simply offer a bus from the subsidized living to local business centers?
Allow them to get a proper education or only offer job placement?
In my opinion, this is where the real discussion needs to be, not if they should receive any support at all.
Do you offer a disadvantaged family a small subsidized two room apartment or are cots in a communal living hall sufficient?
Should they have a food card so they can plan their own meals or have access to a mess hall?
Should you assist in providing basic transportation or simply offer a bus from the subsidized living to local business centers?
Allow them to get a proper education or only offer job placement?
In my opinion, this is where the real discussion needs to be, not if they should receive any support at all.
JAYDEEJOHN
Champion
- Aug 23, 2006
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What I thought was especially odorous, was the fact that absolutely no one was bad-mouthing Cain. Actually, not much was being said of him at all - the MSM was spending all it's effort at attempts to malign Perry, Bachmann, etc.
And then.... Hermain Cain surged ahead in polls and suddenly people want to talk about him. All of a sudden people are calling him racist? Even just watching mainstream news sources these days can be mind-boggling. Everything from calling him a coconut (white on the inside), saying he didn't do enough as a Black man to further Black culture/rights, accusing him of being a puppet to deflect racism against Obama (because you know citizens have no legitimate right to disagree with his policies, so it's automatically racism!!!).
Very sad state of affairs, US politics is 🙁
And then.... Hermain Cain surged ahead in polls and suddenly people want to talk about him. All of a sudden people are calling him racist? Even just watching mainstream news sources these days can be mind-boggling. Everything from calling him a coconut (white on the inside), saying he didn't do enough as a Black man to further Black culture/rights, accusing him of being a puppet to deflect racism against Obama (because you know citizens have no legitimate right to disagree with his policies, so it's automatically racism!!!).
Very sad state of affairs, US politics is 🙁
Daily dose of Hermain Cain race baiting by the MSM:
'Peterson‘s claim echoed and extended Schultz’s conclusion the previous evening that Cain, a black Republican, is appealing to white racists in order to win the Republican primary. “You think about white Republicans who don’t like black folks,” Schultz explained. “It’s almost as if this guy is trying to warm up to them and tell them what they want to hear.”'
And then you got this gem:
“That‘s exactly what I’m saying,” Goldie Taylor stated.
“What I’m saying is that if he can shed his ethnicity today, if he could become what I would call the color of water, he would do it. He would do it in an effort to prove that he and people just like him could fit in anywhere and have the same level of success no matter what their race, ethnicity or gender happen to be. That just doesn’t happen to be the case. And so, would he shed it? I think he would.”
So let's see here... Cain is purposefully catering to "White Racists", and they can read his mind and soul and know that he would change his color if there was a way. Welcome to the looney bin folks, where people can make up whatever baseless crap they want and still find a voice in the MSM.
'Peterson‘s claim echoed and extended Schultz’s conclusion the previous evening that Cain, a black Republican, is appealing to white racists in order to win the Republican primary. “You think about white Republicans who don’t like black folks,” Schultz explained. “It’s almost as if this guy is trying to warm up to them and tell them what they want to hear.”'
And then you got this gem:
“That‘s exactly what I’m saying,” Goldie Taylor stated.
“What I’m saying is that if he can shed his ethnicity today, if he could become what I would call the color of water, he would do it. He would do it in an effort to prove that he and people just like him could fit in anywhere and have the same level of success no matter what their race, ethnicity or gender happen to be. That just doesn’t happen to be the case. And so, would he shed it? I think he would.”
So let's see here... Cain is purposefully catering to "White Racists", and they can read his mind and soul and know that he would change his color if there was a way. Welcome to the looney bin folks, where people can make up whatever baseless crap they want and still find a voice in the MSM.
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