Life expectancy

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What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.
 

Paul

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Mar 30, 2004
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In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, "Travis King"
<Anonymous@none.com> wrote:

> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

If the case temp is not excessive, the electrolytic caps should
be good for 10 years. Solder joints under stress, could be
anyone's guess (more likely to happen with a P4 retail heatsink
and its high clamping forces).

In ten years, you can expect several PSU failures, and any one of
those PSU failures could damage the motherboard.

If you have a lot of lightning storms, or bad quality power,
that could influence how long the mobo lasts. Look carefully
at any modem, cable modem, ADSL wires etc, to see if there are
any protection devices to take a (nearby) lightning hit, before
it gets to the motherboard. For example, on a phone line, there
may be a carbon block at the entry point, and you could enhance
that by using a second protection device nearer the computer.
For the really paranoid, a wireless network would reduce the
wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.

On the motherboard itself, the Vcore circuit is the circuit under
the most stress. If the MOSFETs are cool to the touch, that is
a good sign. I've never read any MTBF estimates for switching
regulators on motherboards, so don't know whether they are
good for a 1 million hour MTBF or not.

Large BGA packages also have a rating, for solder joint
reliability. For example, a BGA with 750 pins, will last for
about 10 years, with a certain daily temperature variation.
From the Via web page:

* 552-pin BGA VT8366A North Bridge
* 376-pin BGA VT8233 South Bridge

so you have little risk of a failure there (caps will fail
first).

Handling the processor a lot (removal, regrease, reposition
heatsink) will cut into the life expectancy, if say the
processor gets cracked, and it happens to overload the Vcore
circuit. If the processor has the rubber bumpers on the top
of the chip, that will cut that risk a bit.

I would say your biggest exposure, is to external factors.

Paul
 
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Paul wrote:

> In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, "Travis King"
> <Anonymous@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
>>care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
>>most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
>>inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.
>
>
> If the case temp is not excessive, the electrolytic caps should
> be good for 10 years. Solder joints under stress, could be
> anyone's guess (more likely to happen with a P4 retail heatsink
> and its high clamping forces).
>
> In ten years, you can expect several PSU failures, and any one of
> those PSU failures could damage the motherboard.
>
> If you have a lot of lightning storms, or bad quality power,
> that could influence how long the mobo lasts. Look carefully
> at any modem, cable modem, ADSL wires etc, to see if there are
> any protection devices to take a (nearby) lightning hit, before
> it gets to the motherboard. For example, on a phone line, there
> may be a carbon block at the entry point, and you could enhance
> that by using a second protection device nearer the computer.
> For the really paranoid, a wireless network would reduce the
> wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
> price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
> getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
> damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
> actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
> to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
> the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>
> On the motherboard itself, the Vcore circuit is the circuit under
> the most stress. If the MOSFETs are cool to the touch, that is
> a good sign. I've never read any MTBF estimates for switching
> regulators on motherboards, so don't know whether they are
> good for a 1 million hour MTBF or not.
>
> Large BGA packages also have a rating, for solder joint
> reliability. For example, a BGA with 750 pins, will last for
> about 10 years, with a certain daily temperature variation.
> From the Via web page:
>
> * 552-pin BGA VT8366A North Bridge
> * 376-pin BGA VT8233 South Bridge
>
> so you have little risk of a failure there (caps will fail
> first).
>
> Handling the processor a lot (removal, regrease, reposition
> heatsink) will cut into the life expectancy, if say the
> processor gets cracked, and it happens to overload the Vcore
> circuit. If the processor has the rubber bumpers on the top
> of the chip, that will cut that risk a bit.
>
> I would say your biggest exposure, is to external factors.
>
> Paul

I would agree, and add that IME motherboards are far more tolerant of
external factors than one has any right to expect ;-)

Our Cottage PC runs an Asus P2B-S, manufactured in 1998 and in service
for almost 6 years. We use it on weekends in winter, but the cottage is
not heated while we are away, so the system experiences repeated thermal
stress cycles - it's common for the inside temperature to be -20C or
lower when we arrive. I discourage the kids from powering up the PC
until the place has warmed up, with limited success :)

Power is unreliable at the Cottage, and we experience frequent
thunderstorms, however despite a lack of protective measures the only PC
failure which has occurred there to date was a sound card that stopped
working after lightning struck a tree behind the building - no doubt due
to a spike induced in the 40' cable running from the sound card to a
stereo system on the other side of the room. Hardly surprising, but
damage was limited to the sound card.

I expect the Cottage P2B-S to be the first of my numerous P2B series
boards to eventually fail, but perhaps not since I use several in my lab
and subject them to frequent CPU swaps and other hardware changes. My
primary system runs a P2B-DS and has been in service 7x24 since October
1997 except for occasional shutdowns for hardware upgrades or fan
service. The power supply refused to restart after a shutdown in 2002
and was replaced, but no other failures have occurred. I have a total of
11 P2B series boards in regular use, with zero motherboard failures to date.

I'd better start saving my pennies since replacing all my systems when
the electrolytic caps fail in 2008 will be expensive ;-)

P2B
 
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In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, Anonymous@none.com says...
> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

I have a number of computers that date back to 1977 that still run just
fine. I also have a couple Dual Celeron 500Mhz machines that run well
that are almost 5 years old (or older I think).

As long as you change the PSU when it gets old (fan starts slowing and
not cooling properly) and protect the system with a good UPS, and keep
the vents clean (and CPU fan) it will last a long time - there are no
moving parts on a motherboard - you may need a new floppy, CD-ROM, or
hard drive.

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I have a relative that I had to replace her ECS board at 6 years old. Not
even 6 months before that, she gave me her computer and it wouldn't turn on
because the PSU went out. None of the card devices were no longer being
detected properly including the video card, modem, etc., but they all used
to be detected just fine. I reinstalled XP on it with no luck. By the way,
I did have a chipped AMD Athlon XP 1800+ running on it for a year. The
temperatures were a little higher on it than my 2400+, which is what I have
now. I have a 400w PSU. WD 80GB HD and WD 120GB HD. Lite On DVD drive.
Memorex 52x CD RW drive. NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti200. Do you think 4 years is a
good amount of time for getting a new computer for someone who edits
pictures frequently, does some gaming, lots of music, and some
multi-tasking? Thanks.
"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c4bc07d5e17253d989e76@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, Anonymous@none.com says...
>> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take
>> good
>> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
>> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
>> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.
>
> I have a number of computers that date back to 1977 that still run just
> fine. I also have a couple Dual Celeron 500Mhz machines that run well
> that are almost 5 years old (or older I think).
>
> As long as you change the PSU when it gets old (fan starts slowing and
> not cooling properly) and protect the system with a good UPS, and keep
> the vents clean (and CPU fan) it will last a long time - there are no
> moving parts on a motherboard - you may need a new floppy, CD-ROM, or
> hard drive.
>
> --
> --
> spamfree999@rrohio.com
> (Remove 999 to reply to me)
 
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The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.

We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
zero mobo components.

---
Bob
 
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In article <KQyEd.8820$ig7.3266@trnddc04>, no.spam@all.thank.you says...
> The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
> the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
> only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
> power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
> properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.
>
> We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
> pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
> to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
> zero mobo components.

CAP's (capacitors) drying out is another thing that is common in older
systems - not to mention the spread of lower quality components (CAP's)
a couple years back.

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Leythos wrote:
> In article <KQyEd.8820$ig7.3266@trnddc04>, no.spam@all.thank.you says...
>
>>The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
>>the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
>>only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
>>power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
>>properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.
>>
>>We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
>>pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
>>to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
>>zero mobo components.
>
>
> CAP's (capacitors) drying out is another thing that is common in older
> systems - not to mention the spread of lower quality components (CAP's)
> a couple years back.
>
Wasn't there something about swollen or blown capacitors on boards made
in China circa 1999.

BTW I have QDI board that still runs fine and was purchased in Nov 1997.
Has run pretty much 24-7 since then. Gone through a couple of HDDs,
CDROM drives, a case fan or two but the motherboard has survived it all.

Ron
 
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In article <0cFEd.207251$Np3.8764145@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Freedom55
<"joinertake this out"@ns.sympatico.ca> says...
> Wasn't there something about swollen or blown capacitors on boards made
> in China circa 1999.

Yep, someone from a company stole the formula for the electrolyte and
went to another company - that company didn't make it quite the same,
and it caused the cap's to go bad early (very early).

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In article <75cFd.315$P_3.1910@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
caldasfire@hades.com says...
> As to RAID 1 I think you really need 4 drives, controller that is
> smart and the software but maybe your definition is different than mine.

RAID 1 is called Mirroring - one drive mirrored at all times to a second
using either software based (as in the Operating system) or hardware
based (as in a controller card). RAID 1 uses two drive only.

RAID 5 is called striping with parity - three or more drives with data
on N-1 number of drives and parity information on N drive - the tracks
are laid out so that parity rotates it's position across all drives like
this D-D-P P-D-D D-P-D and then it repeats (change for more drives).

RAID 1 provides good read performance and is good for normal
workstations and sequential type writes.

RAID 5 provides great read performance and good write performance - RAID
5 is used where you might have data spread all over the place and
multiple requests for it at the same time (different data).

The above is VERY GENERAL and does not exactly define it.

I use RAID-1 on all high end workstations and some servers, RAID-5 is
good for web sites, database data files (not the log files). RAID 1 & 5
are good where you don't want a lost drive to kill your system.


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We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:
> THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
> it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
> building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
> are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
> building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
> lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
> are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
> building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
> are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
> engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
> engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
> stuff blows.
> As I said its the data thats important.
> BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
> inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
> That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
> outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
> That's it said my piece
 
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:50:06 -0500, nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote:

>......
>wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
>price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
>getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
>damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>

I think that you are being unduly negative about cheap "UPSes". You
are absolutely correct that they are not true UPSes, since:
a) they normally connect the mains power (effectively) straight
through to the controlled devices, thus offering no _intrinsic_
protection from spikes; and
b) they have to switch to inverter mode when the power fails, which
takes finite time.
However:
a) almost all SPSes include at least as much separate surge protection
on the mains supply line as a decent standalone surge protector would
provide; and
b) All except the cheapest, no-name, ones switch fast enough so that a
normal computer system power supply does not "notice" the transient
power loss (though network switches, hubs, and the like may "glitch").
For most home and SOHO users, an SPS will provide cost-effective
protection against most of the data loss problems which might
otherwise be caused by brownouts and/or power outages, while their
built in (but unrelated) surge protection circuitry is a _lot_ better
than nothing as insurance against damage from power line spikes.

Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher
 
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You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does point
to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand spending
money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna tower
may be worthwhile.
Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading. The
facts are "it depends"
"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41E776DA.127B32F0@hotmail.com...
> We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
> Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
> A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
> protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
> expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
> money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
> purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
> adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.
>
> Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
> Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
> lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
> - that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
> is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
> art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
> obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
> connected to. Protector and protection are two different
> components of a surge protection 'system'.
>
> Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
> standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
> not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
> concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
> concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
> must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.
>
> Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
> slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
> Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
> confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
> ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
> different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
> impedance.
>
> These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
> entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
> storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
> 2004 at
> http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
> Further details from same author (including figures from
> industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
> above post.
>
> Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
> damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
> Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
> Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
> as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
> important in telco buildings that must operate without
> interruption during every thunderstorm.
>
> notritenoteri wrote:
> > THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
> > it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
> > building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
> > are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
> > building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
> > lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
> > are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
> > building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
> > are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
> > engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
> > engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
> > stuff blows.
> > As I said its the data thats important.
> > BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
> > inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
> > That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
> > outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
> > That's it said my piece
 
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What you describe as describe as "all SPSes include at least
as much separate surge protection on the mains supply line as
a decent standalone surge protector would provide;" is really
near zero protection for numerous reasons. Both the plug-in
UPS and power strip protector have the same protector
circuit. And both are typically so grossly undersized to be
ineffective. Always start with the numbers. In this case
joules.

In another post and in those previously cited posts are
examples of how joules define protection. Notice that so many
plug-in protectors AND their plug-in UPS counterparts may be
rated at 345 joules. As joules increase, the life expectancy
of that protector increases exponentially. IOW if the plug-in
protector is good for two same size surges, then the 1000
joule 'whole house' protector is good for something on the
order of 300 of those same size surges.

Then it continues farther. The plug-in protector has no
earth ground. Therefore the manufacturer avoids the entire
topic altogether. This is how one identified ineffective (and
grossly overpriced - yes grossly overpriced) plug-in
protectors. 1) No dedicated wire connection to earth ground
AND 2) manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.

Further details will be provided in response to Milleron.
But the plug-in protectors are on the order of 10 and 50 times
more expensive per protected appliance. So yes, what you are
calling cheap protectors are really overpriced and expensive
protectors that also are not effective.

BTW, UPSes switch in milliseconds. (One must be careful to
buy power supplies with numerical specs that read: Hold up
time, full load: 16ms. typical). Surges do their damage and
are done in microseconds. 300 consecutive surges could pass
through a UPS before the UPS even considered switching to
battery power. Plug-in UPSes have one function - data
protection. They do not provide the hardware protection so
often implied.

You want a UPS that also provides hardware protection? That
is typically the building wide UPS that also makes this all so
important 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground.
Plug-in UPSes are for data protection; not for hardware
protection.

"Peter R. Fletcher" wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:50:06 -0500, nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote:
>>......
>> wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
>> price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
>> getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
>> damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>> actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>> to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>> the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>
> I think that you are being unduly negative about cheap "UPSes". You
> are absolutely correct that they are not true UPSes, since:
> a) they normally connect the mains power (effectively) straight
> through to the controlled devices, thus offering no _intrinsic_
> protection from spikes; and
> b) they have to switch to inverter mode when the power fails, which
> takes finite time.
> However:
> a) almost all SPSes include at least as much separate surge protection
> on the mains supply line as a decent standalone surge protector would
> provide; and
> b) All except the cheapest, no-name, ones switch fast enough so that a
> normal computer system power supply does not "notice" the transient
> power loss (though network switches, hubs, and the like may "glitch").
> For most home and SOHO users, an SPS will provide cost-effective
> protection against most of the data loss problems which might
> otherwise be caused by brownouts and/or power outages, while their
> built in (but unrelated) surge protection circuitry is a _lot_ better
> than nothing as insurance against damage from power line spikes.
>
> Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
> Peter R. Fletcher
 
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Effective protection costs so little. For example, go to
Home Depot or Radio Shack from something called a grounding
block for incoming cable TV line. It costs less than $2
retail. Connect this grounding block less than 10 feet using
12 AWG or heavier wire. Now the CATV line is fully surge
protected. Yes, the cable line requires no surge protector.
A surge protector is nothing more than a temporary connection
to earth ground. BUT the ground block has already made that
protection connection using a 12 AWG wire. Where is the big
cost?

Unfortunately we still don't build new homes for transistor
safety. So effective protection often must be installed as an
after thought. Sometimes, this means the incoming cable -
improperly installed - must be moved. Now we are talking big
bucks; and only because humans were the reasons for failure.
I recently had this discussion with some cable installer who
keep saying, "Is that what they were saying", or "That's
right. They said something about that". Every incoming
wire must connect to single point earth ground. That
connection is either via a protector or hard wire. The
telephone company even installs a 'whole house' protector ....
for free. But again, it is only as effective as the earth
ground provided by the home builder.

I don't see where all this expense is. Many waste big bucks
on plug in protectors that (quietly) don't even claim to
provide effective protection. The missing information is that
damning. IOW those expensive protectors also are ineffective
solutions. The less expensive 'whole house' protector
connected 'less than 10 feet' to protection is the less
expensive and more effective solution.

Which wire is most often struck? Wire highest on telephone
pole. AC electric. This is a direct strike to the computer
inside the house IF effective 'whole house' protectors do not
connect to that all so essential single point earth ground.

"It depends" is a discussion about the human who did or did
not install effective protection - and what it takes to
correct that mistake. There is no reason for any electronics
to be damaged by surges. And some locations make protection
far more essential. The need for earthed protection varies
even with geology AND can vary significantly even within the
same town.

notritenoteri wrote:
> You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it
> does point to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary
> precautions to protect against rare events is probably not worth it.
> On the other hand spending money on the best possible lightening
> protection for a radio antenna tower may be worthwhile.
> Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat
> misleading. The facts are "it depends"
 

milleron

Distinguished
Apr 18, 2004
291
1
18,785
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom,
I read your referenced thread with great interest. The principles were
clearly explained but some of the stuff about different types of
surges was over my head (I'm a physician whose use and knowledge of
electricity is pretty much limited to dc defibrillators).
At my newly constructed home, I employed an electrician whose business
is limited to surge protection to provide and install the whole-house
suppressor. He put in an Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSP Ultra that comes
with a $100,000 warranty. He says he's never in his career seen a
claim against Cutler Hammer for damage occurring in spite of this
unit. I have faith in this electrician and his recommendations, but
the whole-house suppressor was MUCH smaller than what I expected from
my minuscule knowledge of electricity.
Here's my question: This unit is mounted on the side of the
circuit-breaker box, so where is it's connection to ground? It is
very clearly within ten feet of the external earthing rod, but does it
connect to this through the inside of the breaker box? Can you give
me a brief explanation, of how this thing is wired to protect all the
circuits in the house? Also, in one of your posts, you mentioned that
phones and cable do not require separate protection because they have
built-in surge suppression, and, yet, my guy installed a companion
module (on the whole-house suppressor) for cable (not phone)
connections. Is that superfluous?

Thanks for all the time you take to provide us with these
explanations. They're great.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:38:02 -0500, w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
>Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
>A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
>protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
>expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
>money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
>purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
>adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.
>
> Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
>Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
>lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
>- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
>is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
>art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
>obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
>connected to. Protector and protection are two different
>components of a surge protection 'system'.
>
> Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
>standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
>not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
>concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
>concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
>must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.
>
> Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
>slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
>Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
>confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
>ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
>different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
>impedance.
>
> These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
>entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
>storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
>2004 at
> http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
>Further details from same author (including figures from
>industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
>above post.
>
> Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
>damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
>Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
>Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
>as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
>important in telco buildings that must operate without
>interruption during every thunderstorm.
>
>notritenoteri wrote:
>> THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
>> it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
>> building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
>> are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
>> building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
>> lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
>> are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
>> building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
>> are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
>> engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
>> engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
>> stuff blows.
>> As I said its the data thats important.
>> BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
>> inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
>> That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
>> outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
>> That's it said my piece

Ron
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Plug in protectors claim to protect from one type of surge.
Do some punching. As one arm swings out, the other
withdrawals. That 1-2 punching is an example of a surge that
typically does not do damage. Now instead punch with both
left and right arms simultaneously. That is the common mode
surge that typically damages electronics.

Lightning seeks earth ground. It comes down any and all
'arms', passes through punching bag, and exits out other side
of punching bag. The plug-in protector does not stop, block,
or absorb such destructive surges. IOW it does not sit
between surge and the electronics - even though they hope you
will assume that. And effective protector connects earlier
where wires enter the building so that the 'surge down all
wires simultaneously' all find the same earth ground.

Lightning in 1752 found earth ground destructively via a
church steeple. Franklin simply gave lightning a better path
to earth. Lightning is the 'all arms moving forward at the
same time" type of surge. You don't stop, block, or filter
what miles of sky could not even stop. You 'shunt' lightning
to earth ground. That is also what the 'whole house'
protector does. It provides lightning with a short path to
earth ground.

You are surprised how small the Cutler Hammer unit is. It
need not be large because it does not stop, block, or absorb
the energy. Wire is also not massive because it too carry
massive electrical energy and does not try to stop or block
it. A surge protector is nothing more than a wire. A wire
that conducts only during the rare and short transient. It
can be small because the transient is only in microseconds.

In a parallel example, try to push a common nail into wood.
You cannot. It takes the force of a backhoe to drive that
nail. However, we hit that nail with only a 20 oz hammer.
Does the human arm have same energy as the backhoe? Of course
not. People often confuse energy with power. The hammer has
low energy but high power. Lightning has low energy but high
power. The protector need not be monstrous because 1) it does
not stop or absorb the energy, and 2) the energy is not as
massive as urban myths portray. Too many only 'feel' that a
lightning strike is high energy.

The electrical circuit is best demonstrated by an NIST
figure used in an example from:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
They demonstrate why a fax machine was damaged. Notice that
the phone line was not 'earthed' less than 10 feet to the same
single point ground as AC electric. Telephone line protector
is inside the box labeled NID.

The 'whole house' protector is located where 'Arrestor' is
labeled. Notice that the destructive surge goes through
Arrestor, then to earth ground. Since it need not pass
through fax machine to get earth ground, then an AC electric
surge does not damage fax machine.

All electronic appliances contain effective protection.
Anything that is going to work on the end of a power cord
(those grossly overpriced plug-in protectors) is already
inside electronics - as even required by industry standards.
But we worry that internal electronics protection might be
overwhelmed. So we install a 'whole house' protector on every
incoming utility wire - to same earth ground.

Demonstrated in various posts is the AC electric 'whole
house' protector (such as the Cutler Hammer), the telco
provided protector, and a ground block for cable wire (no
protector required). All are only as effective as that earth
ground.

Now about earthing. Engineered discussed this in two
discussions in the newsgroup misc.rural entitled:
Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv and http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Depending on the problem with transients, the earth ground
may need be enhanced. Important is the neighborhood history.
Also important is the geology. Does the ground tend to
attract more CG lightning? For example, mid-west storms may
be spectacular, but most of the lightning remains sky to sky.
WV is a region with high numbers of CG (cloud to ground)
strikes per thunderstorm.

Those discussions also mention equipotential which is why
Ufer grounds and halo grounds make the protector even more
effective.

Also is earth conductive or is it sand. I believe that
previous discussion also tells a story of a house struck
multiple times - and lightning rods did not work. Why?
Lightning rods were earthed poorly in non-conductive sand.
Bottom line - a surge protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. In most locations, a single ground rod may
provide massive increase in protection. A house that does not
at least meet post 1990 National Electrical Code earthing
requirements does not have the necessary earth ground.

Also in that misc.rural discussion would be how wire must be
routed. For example, no sharp bends and no splices. A ground
wire bundled with other wires may only induce more surges on
that other wire (which is but another reason why plug-in
protectors have no effective earth ground).

There is much to read. Come back with questions. The
simple earthing of surges is surprisingly not intuitively
obvious. In discussing this, I was amazed how many don't even
know what a Ben Franklin air terminal (lightning rod) does -
AND yet would recommend surge protectors. Many even argue
pointed verse blunt lighting rods - when earth ground defines
the effectiveness of that rod. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.

Milleron wrote:
tom,
> I read your referenced thread with great interest. The principles were
> clearly explained but some of the stuff about different types of
> surges was over my head (I'm a physician whose use and knowledge of
> electricity is pretty much limited to dc defibrillators).
> At my newly constructed home, I employed an electrician whose business
> is limited to surge protection to provide and install the whole-house
> suppressor. He put in an Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSP Ultra that comes
> with a $100,000 warranty. He says he's never in his career seen a
> claim against Cutler Hammer for damage occurring in spite of this
> unit. I have faith in this electrician and his recommendations, but
> the whole-house suppressor was MUCH smaller than what I expected from
> my minuscule knowledge of electricity.
> Here's my question: This unit is mounted on the side of the
> circuit-breaker box, so where is it's connection to ground? It is
> very clearly within ten feet of the external earthing rod, but does it
> connect to this through the inside of the breaker box? Can you give
> me a brief explanation, of how this thing is wired to protect all the
> circuits in the house? Also, in one of your posts, you mentioned that
> phones and cable do not require separate protection because they have
> built-in surge suppression, and, yet, my guy installed a companion
> module (on the whole-house suppressor) for cable (not phone)
> connections. Is that superfluous?
>
> Thanks for all the time you take to provide us with these
> explanations. They're great.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Are you selling lightening protection? You have so much faith. Tell us
about ground loops.
"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41E81FE3.BDF9D4D@hotmail.com...
> Effective protection costs so little. For example, go to
> Home Depot or Radio Shack from something called a grounding
> block for incoming cable TV line. It costs less than $2
> retail. Connect this grounding block less than 10 feet using
> 12 AWG or heavier wire. Now the CATV line is fully surge
> protected. Yes, the cable line requires no surge protector.
> A surge protector is nothing more than a temporary connection
> to earth ground. BUT the ground block has already made that
> protection connection using a 12 AWG wire. Where is the big
> cost?
>
> Unfortunately we still don't build new homes for transistor
> safety. So effective protection often must be installed as an
> after thought. Sometimes, this means the incoming cable -
> improperly installed - must be moved. Now we are talking big
> bucks; and only because humans were the reasons for failure.
> I recently had this discussion with some cable installer who
> keep saying, "Is that what they were saying", or "That's
> right. They said something about that". Every incoming
> wire must connect to single point earth ground. That
> connection is either via a protector or hard wire. The
> telephone company even installs a 'whole house' protector ....
> for free. But again, it is only as effective as the earth
> ground provided by the home builder.
>
> I don't see where all this expense is. Many waste big bucks
> on plug in protectors that (quietly) don't even claim to
> provide effective protection. The missing information is that
> damning. IOW those expensive protectors also are ineffective
> solutions. The less expensive 'whole house' protector
> connected 'less than 10 feet' to protection is the less
> expensive and more effective solution.
>
> Which wire is most often struck? Wire highest on telephone
> pole. AC electric. This is a direct strike to the computer
> inside the house IF effective 'whole house' protectors do not
> connect to that all so essential single point earth ground.
>
> "It depends" is a discussion about the human who did or did
> not install effective protection - and what it takes to
> correct that mistake. There is no reason for any electronics
> to be damaged by surges. And some locations make protection
> far more essential. The need for earthed protection varies
> even with geology AND can vary significantly even within the
> same town.
>
> notritenoteri wrote:
> > You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it
> > does point to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary
> > precautions to protect against rare events is probably not worth it.
> > On the other hand spending money on the best possible lightening
> > protection for a radio antenna tower may be worthwhile.
> > Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat
> > misleading. The facts are "it depends"
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

notritenoteri wrote:
> You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does point
> to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
> against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand spending
> money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna tower
> may be worthwhile.
> Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading. The
> facts are "it depends"

And "easily installed" doesn't matter much to people like me.

I live in a rental apartment and I have to deal as best I can
with the existing wiring. Screwing around with the wiring is not
an option for me. I - and many others like me - have to do the
best I can with surge suppressors and UPSes.

> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41E776DA.127B32F0@hotmail.com...
>
>> We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
>>Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
>>A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
>>protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
>>expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
>>money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
>>purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
>>adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.
>>
>> Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
>>Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
>>lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
>>- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
>>is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
>>art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
>>obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
>>connected to. Protector and protection are two different
>>components of a surge protection 'system'.
>>
>> Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
>>standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
>>not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
>>concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
>>concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
>>must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.
>>
>> Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
>>slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
>>Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
>>confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
>>ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
>>different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
>>impedance.
>>
>> These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
>>entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
>>storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
>>2004 at
>> http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
>>Further details from same author (including figures from
>>industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
>>above post.
>>
>> Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
>>damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
>>Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
>>Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
>>as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
>>important in telco buildings that must operate without
>>interruption during every thunderstorm.
>>
>>notritenoteri wrote:
>>
>>>THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
>>>it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
>>>building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
>>>are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
>>>building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
>>>lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
>>>are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
>>>building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
>>>are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
>>>engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
>>>engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
>>>stuff blows.
>>>As I said its the data thats important.
>>>BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
>>>inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
>>>That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
>>>outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
>>> That's it said my piece
>
>
>
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Equipment can be replaced data mostly can't . Any problem that can be fixed
by the application of money is not a problem, at most an inconvenience. Data
is not one of those. Lost data is a problem.
"Rob Stow" <rob.stow.nospam@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:AqUFd.78839$6l.50962@pd7tw2no...
> notritenoteri wrote:
> > You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does
point
> > to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
> > against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand
spending
> > money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna
tower
> > may be worthwhile.
> > Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading.
The
> > facts are "it depends"
>
> And "easily installed" doesn't matter much to people like me.
>
> I live in a rental apartment and I have to deal as best I can
> with the existing wiring. Screwing around with the wiring is not
> an option for me. I - and many others like me - have to do the
> best I can with surge suppressors and UPSes.
>
> > "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:41E776DA.127B32F0@hotmail.com...
> >
> >> We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
> >>Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
> >>A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
> >>protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
> >>expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
> >>money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
> >>purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
> >>adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.
> >>
> >> Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
> >>Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
> >>lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
> >>- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
> >>is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
> >>art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
> >>obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
> >>connected to. Protector and protection are two different
> >>components of a surge protection 'system'.
> >>
> >> Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
> >>standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
> >>not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
> >>concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
> >>concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
> >>must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.
> >>
> >> Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
> >>slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
> >>Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
> >>confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
> >>ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
> >>different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
> >>impedance.
> >>
> >> These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
> >>entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
> >>storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
> >>2004 at
> >> http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
> >>Further details from same author (including figures from
> >>industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
> >>above post.
> >>
> >> Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
> >>damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
> >>Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
> >>Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
> >>as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
> >>important in telco buildings that must operate without
> >>interruption during every thunderstorm.
> >>
> >>notritenoteri wrote:
> >>
> >>>THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
> >>>it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
> >>>building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
> >>>are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
> >>>building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
> >>>lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
> >>>are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
> >>>building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
> >>>are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
> >>>engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
> >>>engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
> >>>stuff blows.
> >>>As I said its the data thats important.
> >>>BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
> >>>inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
> >>>That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
> >>>outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
> >>> That's it said my piece
> >
> >
> >
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Ground loops is why surge protection must be the single
point ground. Problems created by ground loop (the damaged
fax machine) is demonstrated by the NIST figure and previously
cited discussion in:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Which would you believe? Lies promoted by half truths on
retail store shelves? Or fact demonstrated by telephone and
911 emergency operators who never need remove headsets during
every lightning storm. Effective protection is demonstrated by
telephone switching computers that connect to overhead wires
everywhere in town. Its not called faith. Its called facts.
1) Demonstrated by theory and 2) proven by example virtually
everywhere in the civilized world.

Posted was well understood and repeatedly proven even before
WWII. One classic myths is that surge protectors operate too
slow. Even the GDTs that routinely provided surge protection
before WWII and that were much slower were also fast enough
for surge protection. These are facts know to those who
understood how surge protectors work. 'Surge protector works
too slow' is but another myth. Obviously a myth because it is
routinely promoted without numbers. One must believe such
myths only on faith.

notritenoteri wrote:
> Are you selling lightening protection? You have so much faith. Tell
> us about ground loops.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
>
> Effective protection costs so little. For example, go to
> Home Depot or Radio Shack from something called a grounding
> block for incoming cable TV line. It costs less than $2
> retail. Connect this grounding block less than 10 feet using
> 12 AWG or heavier wire. Now the CATV line is fully surge
> protected. Yes, the cable line requires no surge protector.
> A surge protector is nothing more than a temporary connection
> to earth ground. BUT the ground block has already made that
> protection connection using a 12 AWG wire. Where is the big
> cost?

I think you'll find - if you check really carefully - that the
grounding block merely ensures that the incoming cable ground
connection is, in fact, connected to a good ground close to it's final
destination.

Surge protectors otoh make sure that the *signal* (or hot wire in the
case of AC cables) can short rapidly to ground in the event of an
over-voltage. It's done by connecting a MOV (metal oxide varistor)
from signal/hot to ground. At normal operating voltages, this device
is an open-circuit but in the case of a voltage surge rapidly
transforms to a short-circuit shunting the surge to ground.

Having a decent ground alone helps but if you think the grounding
block you refer to means your CATV is "fully" surge protected, you are
sadly mislead.
 
G

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Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <41E81C3F.4C59FFA6@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> BTW, UPSes switch in milliseconds. (One must be careful to
> buy power supplies with numerical specs that read: Hold up
> time, full load: 16ms. typical). Surges do their damage and
> are done in microseconds. 300 consecutive surges could pass
> through a UPS before the UPS even considered switching to
> battery power. Plug-in UPSes have one function - data
> protection. They do not provide the hardware protection so
> often implied.
>
> You want a UPS that also provides hardware protection? That
> is typically the building wide UPS that also makes this all so
> important 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground.
> Plug-in UPSes are for data protection; not for hardware
> protection.

I agree and have to point out one thing here in case people become
confused: In most homes the typical problem is cause by loss of power
for any length of time - this causes the computer to reset in the middle
of anything it was/is doing. This is more likely to happen than a spike
or sag in line power. A UPS, even a cheap 750VA unit, will protect your
computer from power outages, sags and some increases in line voltage
that happen within the amount of time that the unit can respond.

If you want lightning protection you're looking at something other than
a home user UPS. If you combine lightning protection at the breaker
panel (where this is a good earth ground - at least there's suppose to
be one) with a home user UPS, then you've got the protection you need
for about 99% of anything you will run into.

I have a lot of APC Smart-UPS 2200VA units around the country and love
them, but at $800 they are not something that most home users are going
to buy.

The short of this discussion is that the small UPS units people purchase
for their home computers are not likely to protect them or survive a
lightning surge, but, since those are rare for most of us, the UPS will
save you when the power sags, surges, or goes out completely - which is
much more likely to happen.


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(Remove 999 to reply to me)
 
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Power loss will not damage hardware. 'Power loss causes
damage' is often suggested without underlying technical fact.
Why? Underlying facts were never learned.

Sometimes, a power loss is preceded by a surge. Then a
human may blame power loss rather than the undetected surge.
The surge caused both hardware damage and power loss. Human
instead blamed power loss.

Computers using obsolete technology such as FAT file systems
can (in rare cases) erase data previously saved on disk
drive. But power loss does not cause the damage. Damage is
caused by a well known and long since eliminated problem that
still exists in FAT file systems. Systems with critical data
on FAT filesystems should use a UPS - to protect that data.

If 'power loss' causes hardware damage, then 'power off'
also causes hardware damage. Most parts in a computer (ie
hard drive) don't know the difference between 'power loss' and
'power shutdown'. They power down normally no matter how
power is removed.

BTW, how does a UPS protect from power outages? First power
is completely lost for a short time. Then the UPS switches
over to battery. IOW one spec essential for a computer power
supply is its Hold Up Time. Computer power supply must keep
outputting voltage while no power is incoming - while UPS is
trying to decide that power is lost. No problem IF a power
supply contains functions that were defacto 30 years ago AND
that are required in Intel specs. But again, just another
reason why intermittent power loss should not cause damage.

UPS claims no protection from the typically destructive
surges. If it did, then numbers could be provided for that
specification. Anything that provides protection at a
computer is already inside that computer. The plug-in UPS can
even give lightning other destructive paths through the
computer. Yes, an adjacent UPS could even contribute to
hardware damage of adjacent electronics. Instead, the plug-in
UPS manufacturer provided no numerical specs for each type of
transient AND avoids all discussion about earthing. Plug-in
UPS provides no effective hardware protection when the
manufacturer does not even provide numerical specs for that
ability.

Another function that is already in a minimally acceptable
power supply. When line voltage dips so low that incandescent
bulbs are less than 40% intensity: even Intel specs state the
power supply under full load must startup and run as if line
voltage was normal. IOW a UPS for moderate voltage sags is
sometimes a cure for a defective power supply. That is but
another reason why a minimally acceptable power supply retails
for $65. Also why those who buy $25 power supply suddenly
discover they need the plug-in UPS.

Bottom line - the plug-in UPS is only for data protection.
Hardware protection is located elsewhere such as inside a
minimally acceptable power supply, and in the 'whole house'
protection system.

How resilient are computers? Well this plug-in 120 volt UPS
in battery backup mode outputs two 200 volt square waves with
a 270 volt spike while under minimum load. Is that 270 volt
spike, et al destructive? Yes, it can be destructive to some
small electric motors. But this UPS is 'computer grade'.
That means UPS is for devices that are more resilient - such
as computers. Where is the transient protection? Inside the
power supply so that even a UPS in battery backup mode will
not damage the computer.

Leythos wrote:
> I agree and have to point out one thing here in case people become
> confused: In most homes the typical problem is cause by loss of power
> for any length of time - this causes the computer to reset in the middle
> of anything it was/is doing. This is more likely to happen than a spike
> or sag in line power. A UPS, even a cheap 750VA unit, will protect your
> computer from power outages, sags and some increases in line voltage
> that happen within the amount of time that the unit can respond.
>
> If you want lightning protection you're looking at something other than
> a home user UPS. If you combine lightning protection at the breaker
> panel (where this is a good earth ground - at least there's suppose to
> be one) with a home user UPS, then you've got the protection you need
> for about 99% of anything you will run into.
>
> I have a lot of APC Smart-UPS 2200VA units around the country and love
> them, but at $800 they are not something that most home users are going
> to buy.
>
> The short of this discussion is that the small UPS units people purchase
> for their home computers are not likely to protect them or survive a
> lightning surge, but, since those are rare for most of us, the UPS will
> save you when the power sags, surges, or goes out completely - which is
> much more likely to happen.
 
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Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Consult industry professionals: if a center conductor
connects to coax shield using an MOV, well, MOVs have too much
capacitance. They would short out (attenuate) high frequency
signals. Even the telco protector does not use MOVs due to
too much capacitance on lower frequency phone lines.

First, MOV shorting center conductor to coax shield is
enough to suspect insufficient technical knowledge. MOV
capacitance and impedance problems created by that capacitance
are well understood - which is why MOVs are not acceptable for
CATV, DSL, ISDN, satellite receivers, etc.

Second, leakages from the center conductor to shield means
that the destructive surge - if surge even gets to the center
conductor - is leaked to shield and earthed by the ground
block.

Again, earth ground - not a surge protector - defines the
quality and effectiveness of protection. Problem with being
'sadly mislead' is that I know why that MOV cannot be located
as was posted.

WoofWoof wrote:
> I think you'll find - if you check really carefully - that the
> grounding block merely ensures that the incoming cable ground
> connection is, in fact, connected to a good ground close to it's final
> destination.
>
> Surge protectors otoh make sure that the *signal* (or hot wire in the
> case of AC cables) can short rapidly to ground in the event of an
> over-voltage. It's done by connecting a MOV (metal oxide varistor)
> from signal/hot to ground. At normal operating voltages, this device
> is an open-circuit but in the case of a voltage surge rapidly
> transforms to a short-circuit shunting the surge to ground.
>
> Having a decent ground alone helps but if you think the grounding
> block you refer to means your CATV is "fully" surge protected, you are
> sadly mislead.
 

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