Life span of storage media?

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Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I have never bought stuff off of eBay, so I don't know this: what is
the life span of cassette tapes and floppy disks from the 1980s? Can
you generally still read them? How does the hardware (drives) from
that era stand up to the task of reading these media?

--
"Op dit tooverbedde heb ik geslapen, [...] en in minder dan een nacht
was ik genezen [...]. Maar sedert heeft Merlijn het geheim ontdekt
tooverbedden te maken, waar de gewonde ridder in minder dan zes
uren van zijne wonden geneest." -- L. Couperus, Het Zwevende Schaakbord
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> I have never bought stuff off of eBay, so I don't know this: what is
> the life span of cassette tapes and floppy disks from the 1980s?

It depends hugely on how well they've been looked after. All my C64
Infocom disks from the 80s still work fine, but ones off eBay have
been variable. If they've been exposed to heat or light for long
periods they may well be unreadable.

The same is true for hardware - it's all a question of how well it's
been cared for.

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient
8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still worked fine (as of about
1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.

Andy

"David Kinder" <d.kinder@btinternetspamnothankyou.com> wrote in message
news:clonh4$fie$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
>> I have never bought stuff off of eBay, so I don't know this: what is
>> the life span of cassette tapes and floppy disks from the 1980s?
>
> It depends hugely on how well they've been looked after. All my C64
> Infocom disks from the 80s still work fine, but ones off eBay have
> been variable. If they've been exposed to heat or light for long
> periods they may well be unreadable.
>
> The same is true for hardware - it's all a question of how well it's
> been cared for.
>
> David
>
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient 8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still
> worked fine (as of about 1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.

I remember those! (Just about) Those 8" monsters are pretty resilient: in
fact often the older media lasts longer, as the much lower density of
information on the disks reduces the chance of error. In comparison, a lot
of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.

Of course they'll all die in the end: ultimately the magnetic material
oxidizes and just falls off the disk 🙁

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

David Kinder wrote:
>>I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient 8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still
>>worked fine (as of about 1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.
>
>
> I remember those! (Just about) Those 8" monsters are pretty resilient: in
> fact often the older media lasts longer, as the much lower density of
> information on the disks reduces the chance of error. In comparison, a lot
> of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.

The original application of 8" diskettes was to hold the microcode for
IBM S/370 mainframes. They /had/ to be reliable.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"David Kinder" <d.kinder@btinternetspamnothankyou.com>, you wrote on
Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:01:26 +0000 (UTC):

>> I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient 8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still
>> worked fine (as of about 1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.
>
>I remember those! (Just about) Those 8" monsters are pretty resilient: in
>fact often the older media lasts longer, as the much lower density of
>information on the disks reduces the chance of error. In comparison, a lot
>of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.
>
>Of course they'll all die in the end: ultimately the magnetic material
>oxidizes and just falls off the disk 🙁

I was asking, because the E.U. is considering making changes to its
copyright directives*. If works die because the media on which they
are distributed die, I thought I'd propose that the commission take a
look at that problem.

(See <http://oknarb.web-log.nl/index.log?ID=1231016>.)

*) To harmonize and simplify national laws in the E.U., but also to
ensure a fair balance between producers and consumers of works.

--
"Op dit tooverbedde heb ik geslapen, [...] en in minder dan een nacht
was ik genezen [...]. Maar sedert heeft Merlijn het geheim ontdekt
tooverbedden te maken, waar de gewonde ridder in minder dan zes
uren van zijne wonden geneest." -- L. Couperus, Het Zwevende Schaakbord
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"David Kinder" <d.kinder@btinternetspamnothankyou.com> wrote:

> In comparison, a lot
> of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.

It's happening to me, too. I think the newer disks are less durable than the
older ones 🙁

--
Paolo Vece - pvece@mclink.it - http://www.vece.net
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"David Kinder" <d.kinder@btinternetspamnothankyou.com> wrote:

>> I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient 8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still
>> worked fine (as of about 1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.
>
>I remember those! (Just about) Those 8" monsters are pretty resilient: in
>fact often the older media lasts longer, as the much lower density of
>information on the disks reduces the chance of error. In comparison, a lot
>of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.
>
>Of course they'll all die in the end: ultimately the magnetic material
>oxidizes and just falls off the disk 🙁

The magnetic medium is oxide in the first place. I understand
that it is the binder that gives out.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:<gpabo09gb1fj5bposmlbuloj91bj9irvkk@4ax.com>...
> "David Kinder" <d.kinder@btinternetspamnothankyou.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'll second that. My freshman advisor in college had one of those ancient 8-inch floppies from the seventies, and it still
> >> worked fine (as of about 1999) on his equally ancient 8-inch floppy drive.
> >
> >I remember those! (Just about) Those 8" monsters are pretty resilient: in
> >fact often the older media lasts longer, as the much lower density of
> >information on the disks reduces the chance of error. In comparison, a lot
> >of my Amiga disks don't work anymore.
> >
> >Of course they'll all die in the end: ultimately the magnetic material
> >oxidizes and just falls off the disk 🙁
>
> The magnetic medium is oxide in the first place. I understand
> that it is the binder that gives out.

Yes and yes. But note that just because something is an oxide that
doesn't mean it cannot be oxidised. Ferric oxide is Fe2O3 so that
can't be oxidised (as the Fe is already in valence 3), but chromium
dioxide is CrO and that _can_ be oxidised as the Cr is in valence 2
and has valences 3 (Cr2O3) and 6 (CrO3) available. This is all from
my A-level chemistry which was a long time ago now, so it could all be
wrong. Who knows what they put on floppy disks, is it Fe2O3 or CrO
(or something else)?

Anyway, yes the binder goes first.

Annoyingly, the storage medium about which the industry knows most
about its long term storage properties (and so would, in the absence
of other factors be most suitable for long term data storage) is
9-track tape. No-one makes the tape any more and few people make
drives to read and write them.

Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
What is one to do for long-term data storage?

David Jones
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, David Jones wrote:

> Annoyingly, the storage medium about which the industry knows most about
> its long term storage properties (and so would, in the absence of other
> factors be most suitable for long term data storage) is 9-track tape.
> No-one makes the tape any more and few people make drives to read and
> write them.
>
> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in hard-drives
> evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten. What is one to do
> for long-term data storage?

Stone tablets.

/====================================================================\
|| Quintin Stone O- > "You speak of necessary evil? One ||
|| Code Monkey < of those necessities is that if ||
|| Rebel Programmers Society > innocents must suffer, the guilty must ||
|| stone@rps.net < suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun ||
|| http://www.rps.net/QS/ > "Once Burned" by Peter David ||
\====================================================================/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

David Jones <drj@pobox.com> wrote:
: Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
: hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
: What is one to do for long-term data storage?

Copy the data onto fresh media every few years.

yours,
dillo
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:03:56 GMT, Quintin Stone scrawled:

>> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>> hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten. What
>> is one to do for long-term data storage?
>
> Stone tablets.

Too easy to lose, I mean, come on - where are the "Ten Commandments"?

--
http://www.rexx.co.uk

To email me, visit the site.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

drj@pobox.com (David Jones) wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:<gpabo09gb1fj5bposmlbuloj91bj9irvkk@4ax.com>...

[snip]

>> The magnetic medium is oxide in the first place. I understand
>> that it is the binder that gives out.
>
>Yes and yes. But note that just because something is an oxide that
>doesn't mean it cannot be oxidised. Ferric oxide is Fe2O3 so that

OK.

>can't be oxidised (as the Fe is already in valence 3), but chromium
>dioxide is CrO and that _can_ be oxidised as the Cr is in valence 2
^^^^^^^ ^
This does not match.

>and has valences 3 (Cr2O3) and 6 (CrO3) available. This is all from
>my A-level chemistry which was a long time ago now, so it could all be
>wrong. Who knows what they put on floppy disks, is it Fe2O3 or CrO
>(or something else)?

I thought ferrite.

>Anyway, yes the binder goes first.
>
>Annoyingly, the storage medium about which the industry knows most
^^^^^^^^^^
That is the correct word.

>about its long term storage properties (and so would, in the absence
>of other factors be most suitable for long term data storage) is
>9-track tape. No-one makes the tape any more and few people make
>drives to read and write them.
>
>Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
>What is one to do for long-term data storage?

Some in alt.folklore.computers have mentioned paper tape but
punched in mylar.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

drj@pobox.com (David Jones) writes:

> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
> hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
> What is one to do for long-term data storage?

http://www.rosettaproject.org/live/disk

--
Marshall T. Vandegrift <llasram@wuli.nu>

Real are the dreams of Gods, and smoothly pass
Their pleasures in a long immortal dream.
-- John Keats, /Lamia/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Rexx Magnus" <trashcan@uk2.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9595904C2CC10rexxdeansaund@130.133.1.4...
> On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:03:56 GMT, Quintin Stone scrawled:
>
>>> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>>> hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten. What
>>> is one to do for long-term data storage?
>>
>> Stone tablets.
>
> Too easy to lose, I mean, come on - where are the "Ten Commandments"?

Didn't you see Indiana Jones? They're safely stored in the Ark of the
Covenant...
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On or about 11/2/2004 5:11 PM, Gene Wirchenko did proclaim:
> drj@pobox.com (David Jones) wrote:

>>Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>>hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
>>What is one to do for long-term data storage?
>
>
> Some in alt.folklore.computers have mentioned paper tape but
> punched in mylar.

Actually, I have some archival punched tape from, oh, 1975 or so. It's
aluminized mylar, bright red (IIRC several colors were available), and
should easily last a few millenia. The computer lab really discourged
its use because it wore the paper tape punch out PDQ, but I used it to
save the final version of my homework assignments.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> Didn't you see Indiana Jones? They're safely stored in the Ark of the
> Covenant...

They are dust.How could you call stonetablets a storage media with a long
life span,when the tablets god used to store important infos crumble to dust
after some millenias?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Adrian Fänger wrote:

> > Didn't you see Indiana Jones? They're safely stored in the Ark of the
> > Covenant...
>
> They are dust.How could you call stonetablets a storage media with a
> long life span,when the tablets god used to store important infos
> crumble to dust after some millenias?

Yeah, but that's because the original tablets were broken when Moses threw
them to the ground after coming down from the mountain. So the problem
with stone tablets would seem to be that they're just not shock-resistant.

/====================================================================\
|| Quintin Stone O- > "You speak of necessary evil? One ||
|| Code Monkey < of those necessities is that if ||
|| Rebel Programmers Society > innocents must suffer, the guilty must ||
|| stone@rps.net < suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun ||
|| http://www.rps.net/QS/ > "Once Burned" by Peter David ||
\====================================================================/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:30:56 GMT, Marshall T. Vandegrift scrawled:

> drj@pobox.com (David Jones) writes:
>
>> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>> hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
>> What is one to do for long-term data storage?
>
> http://www.rosettaproject.org/live/disk

Wow!

--
http://www.rexx.co.uk

To email me, visit the site.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Rexx Magnus <trashcan@uk2.net>, you wrote on 3 Nov 2004 09:21:05 GMT:
>On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:30:56 GMT, Marshall T. Vandegrift scrawled:
>> drj@pobox.com (David Jones) writes:
>>
>>> Tape unbinds. The metal in CD-R oxidises. The lubricant in
>>> hard-drives evaporates and goes sticky. Punched card gets eaten.
>>> What is one to do for long-term data storage?
>>
>> http://www.rosettaproject.org/live/disk
>
>Wow!

These solutions, however, nice, are pretty much irrelevant in an age
where lawmakers and their paymasters see any act of copying as a form
of terorism (or whatever the mot du jour is for the vilest possible
thing).

Also, the storage solution should not just allow back-up/archival, but
also use. This rules out stone tablets, for instance, because a stone
tablet reader is non-trivial to acquire. What is the use of having a
game when you cannot play it?

--
"Op dit tooverbedde heb ik geslapen, [...] en in minder dan een nacht
was ik genezen [...]. Maar sedert heeft Merlijn het geheim ontdekt
tooverbedden te maken, waar de gewonde ridder in minder dan zes
uren van zijne wonden geneest." -- L. Couperus, Het Zwevende Schaakbord
 
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