Literary origins of Skaven

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I recently read _The Swords of Lankhmar_, book Five in the Swords series by
Fritz Leiber.

Fritz Leiber was a major influence on the creation of D&D
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/classicsoffantasy) and I
think that the rats from the under city in Lankhmar seem to be the origins
of the Skaven.

They include Pikemen, Assassins, beastial Human-Rat hybrids (rat orges),
and sorcerers.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

 

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Robert Singers wrote:
> I recently read _The Swords of Lankhmar_, book Five in the Swords
series by
> Fritz Leiber.

Disclaimer: I am an enthusiastic fan of Mr. Leiber's published works.

[Slavering fanboy mode: ON]

Unlike some fantasy series, *all* of the Sword books were fun reads.

In Swords, Leiber made use of a literary theme older than himself.

But, I wouldn't characterize Mr. Leiber as a plagiarist.

I reserve that epithet for thieves who also bleat about 'their IP'.

>
> Fritz Leiber was a major influence on the creation of D&D
> (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/classicsoffantasy)
and I
> think that the rats from the under city in Lankhmar seem to be the
origins
> of the Skaven.
>
> They include Pikemen, Assassins, beastial Human-Rat hybrids (rat
orges),
> and sorcerers.

You may be correct, as there are certainly many parallels.

I like 'remakes/ remixes' if they're at least as good as the original.

(Negative analogues for anyone who's winced through a radio broadcast:

Wayne Cochran>Eddie Vedder or Cat Stevens>Cheryl Crow [shudders])

By contrast, Fafhrd and the transparently-named Mouser were better!

[Slavering fanboy mode: OFF]

WFRP was published 85/86-ish? TSR had Lankhmar modules then.

So far, I've no complaints against Skaven fluff [mew-urk!] or fiction.

If GW does nothing to cheapen the 'IP' of Mr. Leiber then all is well.


Playa

--

Fritz Leiber (b.1910 - d.1992)
Thanks for enriching so many, in one way or another . . .

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns962FDA02D9641rsingers@IP-Hidden...
>I recently read _The Swords of Lankhmar_, book Five in the Swords series by
> Fritz Leiber.
>
> Fritz Leiber was a major influence on the creation of D&D
> (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/classicsoffantasy) and I
> think that the rats from the under city in Lankhmar seem to be the origins
> of the Skaven.

they're probably one of the influences, but the "rat-man" or rat-demon
archetype also pops up in much older folklore. there was a rash of supposed
sightings in hamburg during the 13th century, for instance - apparently the
local hysteria was so worrying that the archbishop ordered an official
(church) investigation. bizarrely there was a later incident of a
(different) archbishop in a different part of germany being gnawed to death
by a swarm of giant rats (take that with a pinch of salt). there's also the
more immediately apparent influences from certain books by james herbert and
michael moorcock, which the GW authors would doubtless have read, as well as
leiber. there are also rat-human hybrids / mutants in some early stuff by
ian livingstone, which would obviously have been a direct influence,
although they're not so comprehensively similar as leiber's ratmen.

 

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On 4/5/05 1:59 PM, in article imA4e.6044$mQ6.4246@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk,
"Doctor Rock" <malafex@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>
> bizarrely there was a later incident of a
> (different) archbishop in a different part of germany being gnawed to death
> by a swarm of giant rats (take that with a pinch of salt).

<making notes> Wererats prefer their humans salted.


janet
--
Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer.
Oscar Wilde

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Doctor Rock said

> they're probably one of the influences, but the "rat-man" or rat-demon
> archetype also pops up in much older folklore.

I realise that. However it was that black tuniced rat pikeman just seemed
so damn Stormvermin(?).

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

 

[zombie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Doctor Rock" <malafex@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:imA4e.6044$mQ6.4246@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

>
> "Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns962FDA02D9641rsingers@IP-Hidden...
>>I recently read _The Swords of Lankhmar_, book Five in the Swords
>>series by
>> Fritz Leiber.
>>
>> Fritz Leiber was a major influence on the creation of D&D
>> (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/classicsoffantasy)
>> and I think that the rats from the under city in Lankhmar seem to be
>> the origins of the Skaven.
>
> they're probably one of the influences, but the "rat-man" or rat-demon
> archetype also pops up in much older folklore.
>

But Leiber's story also had the "rat-men" with their counsel of 13 rat-
men (like skaven's 13 leaders), both have a "Doombell" (description
swapable), both use a lighting wheel, both have hissing speech, both
have fondness of poision, both work in clans, and both copy and improve
human technology & weapons.

GW got the majority of the Skaven inspiration from Leiber's works more
than anywhere else. I am just amazed that GW has not yet tried to sue
Liber's estate for IP infringement