Question MacBook vs Windows Laptop - For School/Programming

[MrN1ce9uy]

I'm going to school and self-learning web development, and possibly attending a code bootcamp for full-stack web development. I want something I can use about 10% of the time for getting stuff done or learning via videos and tutorials while I'm not at my computer.

I've already ordered a Lenovo ThinkPad E590 15" i5-8265U 256GB for around $900, but I could return it. I see people recommend iOS for development for various reasons including Unix. I also see job descriptions requiring Unix experience.

I'm kinda drawn to the MacBooks, but 1.) they are expensive and 2.) they have low specs (128GB SSD or +$200 for 256GB).

Everything I own is Windows and Android.

Is it worth the extra cost to get a 2018 MacBook Air 256GB for around $1300? I really like the higher screen resolution for hopefully extra screen space.

I know cost is relative, and I could afford $1300, and the MacBook Pro 256GB at $1500 is quite a stretch, but I could probably do it. I think Apple has a $100 student discount.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[jsmithepa]

U wanna MacBook because they are generally well-built, all metal casing (some Winbooks too are all metal), you are deep into the Apple ecosystem (syncs automatically with cloud, iphone, ipad,stream to AppleTV). Apple are for people who just want a tool, any problem, let Apple/AppleCare deal with it. No time to play tech/IT.

A small warning: Macbooks of last few years have the Butterfly keyboard problem, is not fatal but annoying, so Google that up and decide for yourself. Rossmanngroup.com on utube rants about Macbooks and only recommends the 2013-14. Again your decision. If u gonna maintain AppleCare for the duration of your ownership, you are good to go.

If u have to pose this question, you don't love the Macs enough, am serious, because as u already said, and everybody knows, u get the most bang for buck with a Wintel.

 

[MrN1ce9uy]

U wanna MacBook because they are generally well-built, all metal casing (some Winbooks too are all metal), you are deep into the Apple ecosystem (syncs automatically with cloud, iphone, ipad,stream to AppleTV). Apple are for people who just want a tool, any problem, let Apple/AppleCare deal with it. No time to play tech/IT.

A small warning: Macbooks of last few years have the Butterfly keyboard problem, is not fatal but annoying, so Google that up and decide for yourself. Rossmanngroup.com on utube rants about Macbooks and only recommends the 2013-14. Again your decision. If u gonna maintain AppleCare for the duration of your ownership, you are good to go.

If u have to pose this question, you don't love the Macs enough, am serious, because as u already said, and everybody knows, u get the most bang for buck with a Wintel.

You made very valid and relevant points. Nonetheless, I'm still being drawn towards Apple. There is something about Apple software that stands out as something of higher quality.

I almost bought one at Best Buy last night. They had the newest 2019 MacBook Pro 13.3" 256GB on sale for $1199 after $100 student discount. Unfortunately, they couldn't find the only one they showed in stock. I honestly think they had it mislabeled with the older 2017 model.

 

[MrN1ce9uy]

So I looked at then in the store again today. I found that even though they have a high 2560 x 1600 resolution screen, they only"look like" 1680 x 1050. That's lower than the standard 1080p I would rather use to multitask. I'm getting turned off.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

recommends the 2013-14

Also the high end macbooks with a dedacated gph from around 2011 have thermal issues to the point the gpus always get fried.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

So I looked at then in the store again today. I found that even though they have a high 2560 x 1600 resolution screen, they only"look like" 1680 x 1050. That's lower than the standard 1080p I would rather use to multitask. I'm getting turned off.

In a small laptop, pixels are hard to distinguish, so the resolution matters less.

 

[MrN1ce9uy]

I was expecting to view more content on the screen than a standard 1080p laptop. But it's actually less viewable space.

 

[MrN1ce9uy]

I finally got the Lenovo in today.. and I'm really disappointed in it. The trackpad was the first thing I noticed, it's not very accurate or responsive. Very annoying. The second thing is the rough plastic edges at the corners where you would pick it up if it was in your lap. The rough plastic digs into my hands.

So I'm going to return it. Still debating the MacBook.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Apple does have some of the best touchpads. Also, macs are mostly metal with no rough edges.


I personally hate any touchpad, no matter the brand.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

The DELL XPS15 laptops are expensive, but great quality

 

[LordVile]

Apple does have some of the best touchpads. Also, macs are mostly metal with no rough edges.


I personally hate any touchpad, no matter the brand.

You ever used a MacBook track pad? And I mean properly not just 5 minutes at a shop?

I finally got the Lenovo in today.. and I'm really disappointed in it. The trackpad was the first thing I noticed, it's not very accurate or responsive. Very annoying. The second thing is the rough plastic edges at the corners where you would pick it up if it was in your lap. The rough plastic digs into my hands.

So I'm going to return it. Still debating the MacBook.

Not sure about coding cos I don't do it but from what I've heard MacBooks are great for it. If it helps apple let you spread the cost over 12 months so instead of paying the £1300 for mine I pay something around £105 a month. Makes it more manageable. Though if you're going to be doing serious work on it I'd say you should consider the 13" MacBook Pro. Comes with a quad core not a dual core, it has the Touch Bar and the 256GB one is 1500 or 125~ a month in finance.

Also just a warning it may get you sucked into the Apple Ecosystem which although great is expensive. Already had my iPhone before the MacBook but I'm considering an Apple Watch too if the 5th gen is any goosd. Saying that I do have a full desktop which is windows and I'd never buy a Mac desktop. Laptops are just amazing and nothing really beats using them. Honestly the trackpad alone is worth any premium you pay and personally I love the keyboard.

Screen is great, colour accurate and it doesn't feel like a 1080p panel. The 16:10 aspect ratio actually does help when you're typing or reading something which I really didn't expect.

Only competitor I feel obliged to mention is the Surface Laptop 2.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

You ever used a MacBook track pad? And I mean properly not just 5 minutes at a shop?

I wouldn't step in the same room as a MacBook.

The touchpads are some of the best judging by what linus says.

Macbook keyboards are pretty unreliable with the butterfly issues.

 

[LordVile]

I wouldn't step in the same room as a MacBook.
Just judging by what linus says.

Macbook keyboards are pretty unreliable with the butterfly issues.

Why do you say that? Good software, design, specs and excellent trackpad. Don't say you hate every trackpad when you haven't used what is, in my opinion, the only usable one.

You mean Linus the PC guy who actually doesn't mind MacBooks you should look at the choosing a new laptop video that went up recently.

Issues that have been largely resolved and comes under a lifetime warranty?

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Dont even get me started on MacBooks... Heres just a few reasons:

Newer MacBooks aren't upgradeable and I prefer to be able to upgrade a laptop in a few years when it needs a bigger SSD or more ram.

Modern MacBooks have soldered SSD with t2 encryption chips making data recovery nearly impossible. Many people use Apple devices for professional work, but they can lose their hard work with no way to recover if there is a hardware failure.

Finally, most MacBooks are horrifically underpowered for their pricepoint. the 2019 MacBook air has a "1.6GHz dual-core Intel Core i5" and a starting price of over $1000. You can buy a 6 core I7 Windows laptop with dedicated GeForce graphics for hundreds of $ less.

On top of that, many MacBooks thermal throttle and never offer the performance and clock speeds advertised. On certain high-end MacBooks from around 2011, the insufficient cooling was so bad caused many cases of a failed dedicated GPU.

Modern Macbooks also have very few IO ports for things like mice and keyboards without having to carry around dongles.

Some MacBooks have butterfly keyboard switches that fail continuously. Apple may have rectified this tho.

Where a Windows machine may be able to be upgraded to later versions of windows for many years, you may only get a few years of supported mac os versions from Apple.

Apple tries to shut down 3rd parties from providing repairs that Apple doesn't provide themselves.
I won't support a company that doesn't support their own products or allow someone else too.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Modern MacBooks do get a lot of things right that may make them appeal to some people, hence why they sell:

Good build quality and solid metal chassis.

Good speakers and touchpads.

Innovative features depending on the model.

Very thin design.

Amazing battery life. (but hard to replace)

Lightning-fast SSD and retina displays as well as great software integration with other Apple products.

Unfortunately, these don't outweigh the cons for me, hence why I would never buy a modern MacBook and now own an android phone.
I wouldn't be opposed to an older MacBook with upgradable ram, upgradable hdd/ssd, plenty of IO, and the cool slot-loading disk drives.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

You mean Linus the PC guy who actually doesn't mind MacBooks you should look at the choosing a new laptop video that went up recently.

I should have worded that better. According to linus the apple touchpads are the best around

 

[LordVile]

Dont even get me started on MacBooks... Heres just a few reasons:

Newer MacBooks aren't upgradeable and I prefer to be able to upgrade a laptop in a few years when it needs a bigger SSD or more ram.

Modern MacBooks have soldered SSD with t2 encryption chips making data recovery nearly impossible. Many people use Apple devices for professional work, but they can lose their hard work with no way to recover if there is a hardware failure.

Finally, most MacBooks are horrifically underpowered for their pricepoint. the 2019 MacBook air has a "1.6GHz dual-core Intel Core i5" and a starting price of over $1000. You can buy a 6 core I7 Windows laptop with dedicated GeForce graphics for hundreds of $ less.

On top of that, many MacBooks thermal throttle and never offer the performance and clock speeds advertised. On certain high-end MacBooks from around 2011, the insufficient cooling was so bad caused many cases of a failed dedicated GPU.

Modern Macbooks also have very few IO ports for things like mice and keyboards without having to carry around dongles.

Some MacBooks have butterfly keyboard switches that fail continuously. Apple may have rectified this tho.

Where a Windows machine may be able to be upgraded to later versions of windows for many years, you may only get a few years of supported mac os versions from Apple.

Apple tries to shut down 3rd parties from providing repairs that Apple doesn't provide themselves.
I won't support a company that doesn't support their own products or allow someone else too.

Name an ultrabook with similar design that is user upgradable.

Which is why you backup your files, you can also take it to apple.

Different class of laptop. my argument towards a gaming laptop is noon should buy one, they are useless for gaming due to battery life which makes them unpractical. MacBook Airs don't need more than a dual core. Ypu're paying for a thin, light laptop that's well built with good design and obviously you're paying for MacOS. But it's not for heavy lifting.

Put it this way, an LG Gram which isn't built as well, has a worse screen and was only 100 less at launch than the same storage MacBook Air and the surface laptop 2 was around the same. Neither come with MacOS.

Yes MacBooks thermal throttle. Pros aren't so bad anymore. But it's typical of laptops of that size.

They have thunderbolt 3 you don't need anything else. The idea is rather than offering a bunch of IO you'll never use you get 2/4 ports you can turn into literally anything you want. I could run a Radeon VII or my Vega 56 on my MacBook with an enclosure for example or I couple have a USB hub or a HDMI/DP/DVI connector. It makes the IO stupidly flexible and I'd rather carry a dongle and a small 30W charger (if I want to) than the massive cord and power brick you have to carry with a 6 core GTX enabled laptop.

They've altered them so they're a lot more reliable but they also have a lifetime warranty for the keyboard specifically. Think they're changing the keyboard soon anyway.

Depends if your system can run it. MacOS Catalina? I think the next ones called supports everything from 2012 onward going into 2020. 8 years support isn't bad for tech. Plus you don't have to pay for any essential part unlike office. And that's IF you can upgrade it. Most laptop CPUs are soldered so all you can really upgrade in a W10 laptop is the RAM which isn't what needs upgrading in most cases.

Of course they shut them down. Apple likes to make sure all the parts used are correct, there was an iOS update a few years ago that bricked iPhones that were repaired through 3rd parties that used dodgy screens. Apple has massive pride in what they sell (they literally wrote a book on it) it's natural they want to control repairs of it.

Every product and every brand has pros and cons however I do believe you are being a little short sighted trying to match a MacBook against a gaming laptop and claiming W10 laptops have amazing upgradability when in reality bar a few outliers you can only hope to upgrade the RAM and storage in W10 laptops and even then it is very hit and miss. Apple sets a lot of trends and we're already seeing laptops ditch IO like they did when apple effectively killed the disk drive.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Which is why you backup your files, you can also take it to apple.

You can take it to apple, but they are not very helpful if your warranty is up. They will just tell you that you can spend a grand on repairs or buy a new laptop. I will say the actual stores are nice, but not always helpful.

I do agree that you definitely should backup your data. I have a server dedicated to it. The problem is that i would bet that most MacBook owners dont.

They have thunderbolt 3 you don't need anything else.

But you do.
What if I want to plug in a USB mouse? dongle
Want to plug in an HDMI monitor? dongle
What if i want to plug in a keyboard when one of my butterfly keys fails? dongle
Want to charge your iPhone with OEM cable? dongle
It's not so portable when you have to carry dongles around now, is it?
But at least it has a headphone jack

On top of that, I believe some MacBooks won't recognize 3rd party dongles on purpose forcing you to spend a ton on an apple branded one.

8 years support isn't bad for tech. Plus you don't have to pay for any essential part, unlike office.

I won't argue that 8 years isn't bad. It's actually incredibly good compared to something like an android.
With Windows, you could get over 15 years of support with the latest os for your old hardware, but it would be slow and definitely not much of a value adder. But it is a benefit.

Every product and every brand has pros and cons

From the mindset of an enthusiest, I have a hard time reccomending Apple MacBooks. Apple phones are great if you can afford them.
I can see the appeal of an easy to use a laptop, but there are so many drawbacks that nearly always end up in you paying apple money for a repair, replacement, upgraded model, or accessory. He isnt using other apple products, so those advantages are gone.

For something upgradable.
If you want to compare thin and lights I come back to my previous recommendation, the Dell XPS13.
4c/8t I5 8250u 1.6ghz up to 3.4ghz (similar clocks to MacBook air but double cores and threads)
8GB ram
128gb NVME
4k touchscreen with tiny bezels
Windows 10
UHD graphics 630

The ram is soldered, but your data is stored on an upgradable m.2 drive. This doesnt make the machine thicker either, as it is thinner than a macbook air.

IO is better, but not much. Still would need dongles, but not for an sd card.
2 thunderbolt, 1 USB c
sd card reader
headphone jack.

The XPS 13 weighs 2.7lbs but the MacBook air 13in weighs more at 2.9lbs
The XPS 13 is between 0.3 and 0.5in thick, less than the 0.6in thick MacBook air 13 in.
Small, but the XPS13 is better at being both thin and light.

Worse battery life than MacBook, likely due to 4k panel.

Great speakers and thin webcam.

Good touchpad and ok keyboard.

No fingerprint scanner, but windows hello.

$899, $200 cheaper than MacBook air

https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-0009-0...8KI9Lc-DnmBInT_wdahoC0-8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

A lot of these things come from here:
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/dell-xps-13-2019
https://www.windowscentral.com/xps-13-9370-review
Some things about spec are different tho, so i tried to omit them.

 

[LordVile]

You can take it to apple, but they are not very helpful if your warranty is up. They will just tell you that you can spend a grand on repairs or buy a new laptop. I will say the actual stores are nice, but not always helpful.

Actually don't know anyone who's gone into an Apple store and not had anything fixed. Closest thing was my sister trying to return a phone case but she had to do something first before they'd swap it. But they did swap it.

I do agree that you definitely should backup your data. I have a server dedicated to it. The problem is that i would bet that most MacBook owners dont.

It does it automatically through iCloud, I've turned it off because it irritated me and back out up manually but it's something you have to turn off and the storage capacities if you want to back up a lot are fairly cheap.


But you do.
What if I want to plug in a USB mouse? dongle
Want to plug in an HDMI monitor? dongle
What if i want to plug in a keyboard when one of my butterfly keys fails? dongle
Want to charge your iPhone with OEM cable? dongle
It's not so portable when you have to carry dongles around now, is it?
But at least it has a headphone jack

You can get one dongle with all of those connectors on it https://www.amazon.co.uk/FITFORT-DUAL-Display-Aluminum-Ethernet-Compatible/dp/B07MKC5Z1D/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=37OF5YMM4MQTL&keywords=thunderbolt+3+dongle&qid=1564308286&s=gateway&sprefix=thunderbolt+3+don,aps,165&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1

On top of that, I believe some MacBooks won't recognize 3rd party dongles on purpose forcing you to spend a ton on an apple branded one.

They do recognise 3rd pats dongles. Dunno if its still right but they didn't recognise a previous gen Thunderbolt 3 standard from Texas Instruments. But anything USBC works too.


I won't argue that 8 years isn't bad. It's actually incredibly good compared to something like an android.
With Windows, you could get over 15 years of support with the latest os for your old hardware, but it would be slow and definitely not much of a value adder. But it is a benefit.

Is a bit of a benefit but talking 8 years ago the top of the line desktop chip was a 970 and the mobile variant I wouldn't want to run. Mobile devices have a limited shelf life they're not like desktops where you can swap out anything you want because why not. I mean the last laptop I had before this one I got back in 2013, it is horrendously slow now even though I've factory reset it twice and uninstalled all of the bloatware (something MacBooks don't come with may I add). My PC since I rebuilt from scratch in 2016 is now on its 3rd case, 4th motherboard, 4th CPU and 5th GPU if you could the 2400g as an APU. It's a different type of device.

From the mindset of an enthusiest, I have a hard time reccomending Apple MacBooks. Apple phones are great if you can afford them.
I can see the appeal of an easy to use a laptop, but there are so many drawbacks that nearly always end up in you paying apple money for a repair, replacement, upgraded model, or accessory. He isnt using other apple products, so those advantages are gone.

Apple laptops are the best you can get for productivity, the trackpad means you can use it anywhere, the build quality is solid, the screen excellent, you have software that never needs replacing unless you need something specific or high end, you don't have to pay for office, you won't get your data deleted by a rogue update, it's less likely to run into malware issues and you get exclusive software. It's one of those things where if you've tried one for a decent period of time you won't want to go back. Obviously you won't be editing 4K video in iMovie on a MacBook air but you can easily edit 1080p to a high grade in FCP and it will destroy any windows laptop with a similar form factor because they just don't have FCP, you have Xcode for programming, compressor, iBooks author, Logic Pro X. they're all professional grade apps that you can't get on windows and work so well on a Mac.

For something upgradable.
If you want to compare thin and lights I come back to my previous recommendation, the Dell XPS13.
4c/8t I5 8250u 1.6ghz up to 3.4ghz (similar clocks to MacBook air but double cores and threads)
8GB ram
128gb NVME
4k touchscreen with tiny bezels
Windows 10
UHD graphics 630

The ram is soldered, but your data is stored on an upgradable m.2 drive. This doesnt make the machine thicker either, as it is thinner than a macbook air.

IO is better, but not much. Still would need dongles, but not for an sd card.
2 thunderbolt, 1 USB c
sd card reader
headphone jack.

The XPS 13 weighs 2.7lbs but the MacBook air 13in weighs more at 2.9lbs
The XPS 13 is between 0.3 and 0.5in thick, less than the 0.6in thick MacBook air 13 in.
Small, but the XPS13 is better at being both thin and light.

Worse battery life than MacBook, likely due to 4k panel.

Great speakers and thin webcam.

Good touchpad and ok keyboard.

No fingerprint scanner, but windows hello.

$899, $200 cheaper than MacBook air

https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-0009-0...8KI9Lc-DnmBInT_wdahoC0-8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

A lot of these things come from here:
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/dell-xps-13-2019
https://www.windowscentral.com/xps-13-9370-review
Some things about spec are different tho, so i tried to omit them.

The Dell has issues though, it's thinner because it's poorly built, a touch screen on a laptop is a terrible idea and one of the reasons windows has been getting worse in my opinion as they have to shoehorn in clunky touch features, 4K is a waste on a 13" screen. It's lighter and thinner because it's plastic not metal. The speakers are much worse, not sure on the webcam because it's something I don't use. Lol good touchpad, you'll be using a mouse windows trackpads just aren't useable. Can you use windows hello for buying stuff? Genuine question.

You can get a 4c/8 thread MacBook Pro which would beat the XPS quite handily, especially if you use apple software for example FCP vs Adobe and you can pay monthly through apple interest free if you'd like to price isn't a massive stick considering the MacBook is built to a much higher standard. Although unless you're doing intense work I wouldn't say a 4 core is needed, the air I have has been fine and the only time it's struggled is the I accidentally rendered a 1 hour 30 min video through pro res. I stopped when I realised because even an 8 second clip in pro res took up 118mb of storage. Compare that to the 8mb the High preset at 1080p took up (I did a small file to see how much of a difference it actually was)

Also put most of the responses in the quote in bold cos easier