[Mage] Seasonal Play and Rotes

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(Crossposted to here and RPG.net to cast the net wider.)

Okay, first, in Guide to the Traditions, there's a system option called
Seasonal Play. I get the basics of how it works, calculating pools for
various kinds of study, figuring difficulties, all that except for how
to use the successes. Does each success count as an experience
point towards the goal of the season? Do they decrease the multiplier in
figuring the total number of XP needed? What?

Second, to all you Mage GMs, how many rotes does the average starting PC
in your game begin play with?

--
Tyler

u d e t o d r y s t a n o i d f t

Bac>|wards
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> Second, to all you Mage GMs, how many rotes does the average starting PC
> in your game begin play with?
>

I always figured that giving a mage 1 rote to go with each sphere dot makes
the most sense. If a mage wants more rotes he can buy them for 1 freebie
point each or 1 experience point per level of the highest sphere involved.

-Essex
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Hey

Don't know anything about Guide to the Trads but as far as rotes go I draw
the line at four, five at the absolute most. Any more than that and there
are too many low difficulty spells kicking arround. Also these ones should
be really specific in my opinion. Only useable for one main purpose. Mage is
vesatile enough, rotes just make things the character would do a lot
easyer.

Hope something in there is helpful.

Daz
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

1) I did never use Seasonal Play. Can't help you here.

2) For rotes we apply "house rules".
I give 1 rote each one of them. A bonus of +1 rote if their INT is 4, +2
rotes if their INT is 5. (very hard to explain or roleplay. Yes I do expect
them to roleplay and explain their "5" attributes!). Usually at the end of
the chronicle (or very long chapters), if there is some downtime (very
often) I let them learn (or find) 1 rote (if they have the resources ... not
automatically). My two cents.
 
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"Dragon Hammer" <dragonhammer@nospam.it> wrote in message news:<tqGRc.116261$5D1.5825981@news4.tin.it>...
> 1) I did never use Seasonal Play. Can't help you here.

Its XP, not the multiplier. Incidentally, I chose to shorten Seasonal
study for my own game to "any substantial bit of downtime."

> 2) For rotes we apply "house rules".
> I give 1 rote each one of them. A bonus of +1 rote if their INT is 4, +2
> rotes if their INT is 5. (very hard to explain or roleplay. Yes I do expect
> them to roleplay and explain their "5" attributes!). Usually at the end of
> the chronicle (or very long chapters), if there is some downtime (very
> often) I let them learn (or find) 1 rote (if they have the resources ... not
> automatically). My two cents.

"Officially," mages know all of the rotes in the core book. GttTrads
talks about how to get more.

Inicdentally, one thing I always wanted to eventually write up for
print was a system to modify the Sphere requirements for an Effect.
Make this an aspect opf "seasonal" study that requires an
Intelligence+Occult roll, difficulty 9, min 2 successes. Quintessence
or Library (but not both at the same time) can be used to reduce the
difficulty of the roll. The resulting successes allow you to ajust a
rote you can already cast so that it uses a different set of Spheres
that you also know.

Successes/Rank Adjustment
2/1
4/2
8/3

What this means:

You may use the rank adjustment to trade requires Sphere ranks in one
rote and assign them to another Sphere. You must (of course) be able
to justify the alternate Sphere choice. Once you alter the rote, you
may cast it in either form, gaining the rote bonus for each one. You
may also teach this rote to your apprentices.

*The rank 2 cutoff*

You cannot reduce a previously required Sphere below rank 2 without
the Storyteller's permission, and the redistributed ranks must be put
into another Sphere to raise it to at least rank 2. If none of the
reqiured Spheres are rank 2 or higher, you must transfer an extra rank
into another Sphere that you know.

*Mastery and Beyond*

transferring the 5th rank of a Sphere counts as transferring 2 ranks.
Archsphere ranks cannot be trasferred.

*Making Magic Harder*

Note that you can also *increase* the required rank of an Effect
without removing ranks from elsewhere. This is normally done for
arcane research purposes ("How do a make a nuclear reaction as faint
as candelight?") or to bedevil students or spies. Instead of using the
table, you can add one rank per success and even perform this on
multiple rotes, making your occult library a morass of overly complex
spells.

*Mythic/Ontic Requirement*

You may further reduce the difficulty of the roll by adding a foci
requirement that must be used to allow the rote to work at all. This
requirement trascends paradigm and is an innate part of the magic
because it draws on a Mythic Thread or harnesses an external
principle. If the foci requirement is especially arduous, you also
gain a free rank to transfer, assuming you succeed in reformulating
the rote. Bonuses are as follows:

Focus/Bonus
Focus is moderately inconvenient (a full turn of chanting in
unaccented Sumerian; Burning 10,000 dollars)/-1
Focus is very inconvenient (ritual human sacrifice; special access to
a nuclear reactor)/-2
Focus is incredibly incvonvenient (ritually sacrificing 100 red haired
men; getting 2 minutes of advertizing space in the Super Bowl)/- 2 and
bonus rank.

Example:

Mark Gillan wants to create magical explosions more easily. He knows
the traditional Hermetic Ignis rote (Forces 3/Prime 2). He spends a
season studying the Quintessence used in caasting Ignis to see where
exactly it comes from (spending 2 point) and meditating on the origins
of fire. His player rolls his Intelligence+Occult at difficulty 7 to
represent the season's work and gets 2 successes. Mark realizes that
he can easily find points of *potential* ignition using Entropy and
just needs to manipulate them, then "pump them up" with Prime.
He now knows a version of the Ignis rote that uses Forces 2/Prime
2/Entropy 2. Even though Mark's player transferred 1 rank, he must add
another to Entropy because the whole rote is only rank 2.

Thus, we have a system that allows mages to create the legacy rotes
you see in various books.

M.
 
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In article <c772e1f6.0408120151.45fa3380@posting.google.com>,
usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com (Malcolm Sheppard) wrote:

> "Officially," mages know all of the rotes in the core book. GttTrads
> talks about how to get more.

The corebook seemed to intimate that, but I wasn't certain. The section
in GttTrads was probably what started me thinking about the question in
the first place.

> Thus, we have a system that allows mages to create the legacy rotes
> you see in various books.

Very nice. This one goes in my House Rules file.

--
Tyler

u d e t o d r y s t a n o i d f t

Bac>|wards
 
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"Tyler Dion" <tfdion@spammenot.com> wrote in message
news:6OWdnVWzUOeT7YjcRVn-tg@telcove.net...
> (Crossposted to here and RPG.net to cast the net wider.)
>
> Okay, first, in Guide to the Traditions, there's a system option called
> Seasonal Play. I get the basics of how it works, calculating pools for
> various kinds of study, figuring difficulties, all that except for how
> to use the successes. Does each success count as an experience
> point towards the goal of the season? Do they decrease the multiplier in
> figuring the total number of XP needed? What?
>
> Second, to all you Mage GMs, how many rotes does the average starting PC
> in your game begin play with?
>
> --
> Tyler

However many they want, so long as they have the Sphere knowledge to carry
out the effects and the rotes are in-Paradigm.

Amongst other things, I've always hated the MageRev +1 Penalty for casting
Magick that is not a known Rote - IE, the Creativity Penalty. This was when
they were trying for force Mages into being more like Hedge
Magicians/Sorcerers, IMO. But, I'm one of those 2nd Ed throwbacks.

CB
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Intelligroove wrote:

> Amongst other things, I've always hated the MageRev +1 Penalty for casting
> Magick that is not a known Rote - IE, the Creativity Penalty. This was when
> they were trying for force Mages into being more like Hedge
> Magicians/Sorcerers, IMO.

You misspelled "Trying to provide a tangible mechanical reason why mages
hunt down ancient lore, when previously there was no reason why they
would since they'd always do just as good when they made everything up
as they went along."

Remember -- that +1 difficulty for not using a rote is canceled out by
the -1 difficulty for using a sphere specialty focus, which used to be
mandatory. We've been over this before, Chris -- magic in MRev is
/easier/ than magic in M2nd. I can demonstrate that mathematically.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
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"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2o2vciF6bve1U1@uni-berlin.de...
> Intelligroove wrote:
>
> > Amongst other things, I've always hated the MageRev +1 Penalty for
casting
> > Magick that is not a known Rote - IE, the Creativity Penalty. This was
when
> > they were trying for force Mages into being more like Hedge
> > Magicians/Sorcerers, IMO.
>
> You misspelled "Trying to provide a tangible mechanical reason why mages
> hunt down ancient lore, when previously there was no reason why they
> would since they'd always do just as good when they made everything up
> as they went along."
>
> Remember -- that +1 difficulty for not using a rote is canceled out by
> the -1 difficulty for using a sphere specialty focus, which used to be
> mandatory. We've been over this before, Chris -- magic in MRev is
> /easier/ than magic in M2nd. I can demonstrate that mathematically.


Magic may be easier in MageRev (I'll take your word on that for the purpose
of the argument), but I still have to say that that increased difficulty for
not using a rote bothers me on several levels. Sphere levels are like
abilities; they represent a general understanding of a particular subject
matter at a given degree of accomplishment. I see a rote as similar to a
skill specialization; you have specifically trained one aspect of your skill
to a degree beyond the norm.

Take this example:

Bob and Steve are running through a park and have to jump over a park bench.
The Storyteller decides that jumping over the bench requires a Dexterity +
Athletics roll and is difficulty 7 (Harder than average, but not
extraordinarily so). Both men have a Dexterity of 3 and an Athletics of 2.
Bob's player reminds the storyteller that his character's backstory involves
having been a member of his college's track & field team and that he'd
undoubtedly spent many hours practicing jumping over waist high obstacles
while running full speed. Although Bob does not have an actual
specialization in Athletics the storyteller agrees that the character is
quite noticeably accomplished in this particular endeavor. The storyteller
tells Bob that he can roll versus the given difficulty of 7 while Steve has
to roll at difficulty 8.

Steve's player: "WTF? How does Bob's backstory wind up giving ME a penalty
to my roll?!?"

Storyteller: "It doesn't. It merely prevents him from taking the +1
difficulty penalty for using his skill in a way that he has not extensively
practiced. Because your character has not had the same training the task is
more difficult for him."

....

Do you get my point here? Practicing a specific 'trick' with a known ability
should act to make the task easier (practice makes perfect) rather than
prevent the task from being harder. I assume that Difficulty is determined
by how hard it is for an average individual with a general understanding of
the subject to accomplish a given task. The rote rule seems to assume that
the average individual has been specifically trained for a particular task
and that those who lack this training should be penalized. For a game that
goes on and on about potential and possibility, it seems somewhat harsh to
penalize people for trying to innovate.

-Essex
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" wrote in message

>
> You misspelled "Trying to provide a tangible mechanical reason why mages
> hunt down ancient lore, when previously there was no reason why they
> would since they'd always do just as good when they made everything up
> as they went along."
>

That sentence makes me quite happy. Masterful use of the language.

Joel Morton
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Joel Morton wrote:

> That sentence makes me quite happy. Masterful use of the language.

Why, thank you. I do try.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> Remember -- that +1 difficulty for not using a rote is canceled out by
> the -1 difficulty for using a sphere specialty focus, which used to be
> mandatory. We've been over this before, Chris -- magic in MRev is
> /easier/ than magic in M2nd. I can demonstrate that mathematically.
> --
> Stephenls
> Geek
> "I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

I stand corrected.

BTW, do you have links to the old MRev magick discussions? I find that I
need a refresher. Before Exalted Combos, Mage Magick discussions were the
home of crunchiness in a.g.w.w. Or should I try to google in their groups
section?

Danke for the clarification,

CB
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

<snip Stephenls-Malc Sheppard Mage Jam>

Great stuff. This is getting turned into a text document and shoved in my
Mage folder.

Thanks, muchly!

CB
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Malcolm Sheppard wrote:

> I suppose you're right. Normally, I impose the penalty in both
> situstions, collectively. I typically allow mundane, non-offensive
> actions to be used as well so long as it doesn;t interfere with the
> use of foci. Precedent for this is actually in the M:tSC supplement
> Order of Reason, though.

I know I have "mages get one mundane dice action and one magical dice
action each turn" bolted onto my Permanent House Rules, in order to
de-uberpower Mind 1 a bit. I don't see why I'd ever use a house rule
that makes magic more difficult than the book's default.

> Ideally, I prefer normal pool splitting in the end, though, which is
> why I ultimately used Arete+Sphere in my house games.

Perhaps in M:tAw....

> You might reconcile them by allowing one free (human-size or so)
> target if you roll to hit. The phrasing of the rules is that you spend
> successes regardless. A pattern vs. pattern strike that is just
> appears out of nowhere might count as ann "invisible attack" with a
> difficulty of 9 to evade, encouraging you to make these attacks a
> stacked success thing.

The free target for using an attack roll is something I'd considered
canon for a long time -- something Jess said here, IIRC. Perhaps he
intended it. Regardless it doesn't show up in the book anywhere and
your way makes more sense, in that it gives a reason for using Life 3
instead of Forces 3 for the attack. Fireballs require attack rolls; Rip
The Man Body is an auto-hit.

> Well, since lots of people run crossover, I'd say this is a point from
> which internet discusssion deviates from usual play.

What was it that occasionally gets said about online Mage discussions
bearing little resemblance to the way Mage is played?

> See end of box text, p. 207, Mage Revised.

Well I'll be damned! You'd think they could have noted that in the
actual section of the book about Paradox.

Nicely contradicted by the Mage FAQ in the STH (the one online having
been removed), I'll note, which says that paradox auto-backlashes 90% of
the time and hangs around to sit in the pool that last 10%.

Stupid, stupid editing.

> That's Bill Bridges, AFAIK. Brucato's last rules design is Deleria.

Right. My bad.

Probably won't check out Deleria any time soon.

> It's a sensible guideline.

Well, I remember quite liking them when I read them the first time.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In article <c772e1f6.0408140319.ddec27e@posting.google.com>,
usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com (Malcolm Sheppard) wrote:

> This depends on the ST. I personally wouldn't allow an auto-target
> unless Bobius has:
>
> *1 rank of Spirit (for a living creature, Life)
> *3 ranks of Correspondence.

I thought Correspondence doesn't come into play unless the target is out
of the caster's line of sight?

My own, largely off the cuff thoughts on the matter essentially run that
if a caster can perceive the target(s), a condition that could
potentially include Sphere-enhanced senses utilizing Correspondence,
Life, or Spirit, they can spend successes on targeting.

No?

--
Tyler

u d e t o d r y s t a n o i d f t

Bac>|wards
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Tyler Dion wrote:
> In article <c772e1f6.0408140319.ddec27e@posting.google.com>,
> usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com (Malcolm Sheppard) wrote:
>
>
>>This depends on the ST. I personally wouldn't allow an auto-target
>>unless Bobius has:
>>
>>*1 rank of Spirit (for a living creature, Life)
>>*3 ranks of Correspondence.
>
>
> I thought Correspondence doesn't come into play unless the target is out
> of the caster's line of sight?
>
> My own, largely off the cuff thoughts on the matter essentially run that
> if a caster can perceive the target(s), a condition that could
> potentially include Sphere-enhanced senses utilizing Correspondence,
> Life, or Spirit, they can spend successes on targeting.
>
> No?
>

My general rule was that if you are hitting your target with something
else you needed to roll. Absolutely no exceptions - spheres can make the
roll easier, but it must be made. This means that, for instance, a
fireball must be aimed but spontaneous human combustion doesn't.\

However, any magic the target has a clue is coming can be
dodged/resisted in some way, so you'd really rather make that targeting
roll. This is as true for mind affecting effects as for damage - an
academy award winning performance + manipulation roll can go a long way
towards overcoming a target's willpower.

William
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

<snip wonderful MageRev vs Mage 2 mechanics discussion>

BTW, Malcolm, will you be working at all on Mage:The Awakening? Your
Tradbook AB Revised rawked, and your grasp of mechanics seems impeccable.
I'd like to see you working on the project, due to your grasp of setting
*and* rules.

CB