Magic vs. technology (was: Musings on Alignment)

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Between saving the world and having a spot of tea said

> Btw: the supernatural critters in the MM aren't supposed to roam the
> countryside under normal circumstances. They're supposed to roam the
> wildlands. When they start roaming the countryside, that's when you
> send out the call for idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hheroic adventurers.

BTW Grubb uses 'problem' when he means I don't understand and Suttie hasn't
told me what to think.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
 
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In article <bgrubb-617C8F.03530605072005@news.zianet.com>,
Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂


OK here is an opening question...

Is it possible to quantitate the number of manna points available
per year per unit population, In low, medium, or high manna worlds.

I suppose the key question is does GURPS ever give a clue as to the
'default' frequency of casters.

Given a ballpark figure as to amount of magic available its possible
to gauge the upper limit of what would be possible in that world.

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
 
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On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
>
>Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂

This subject is dangerous !
But only because I tend to go on a bit 🙂
Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?
The subject title says a lot.
But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
time dealing with science derived technology.
I remember trying to make a spells that would animate a computer (like
a familiar) and a VR link spell so I could see the Cyberworld without
needing implants.
And others, but they never ever got anywhere.
Because you end up with a ridiculously hard spell, or it's flatly
impossible.
Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
sense?
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:52:46 +0100, mike
<Spam.mike@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
>lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
>>
>>Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂
>
>This subject is dangerous !
>But only because I tend to go on a bit 🙂
>Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?
>The subject title says a lot.
>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>time dealing with science derived technology.

In fact, most settings with working magic have it coexisting just fine
with technology. You don't see wizards living in caves - they live in
technologically-created towers, castles, or houses. (Yes, stonecutting
is a technology.) They don't go around naked; they wear
technologically-produced clothing. (Weaving is another technology.)
Metalworking is yet another technology, so every magical sword or ring
(save for gifts from the gods) is an example of applied techno-magic.

>I remember trying to make a spells that would animate a computer (like
>a familiar) and a VR link spell so I could see the Cyberworld without
>needing implants.
>And others, but they never ever got anywhere.
>Because you end up with a ridiculously hard spell, or it's flatly
>impossible.

Have you looked at the Technology College in GURPS Grimoire (or Fourth
Edition GURPS Magic)? They seem to have the balance problems licked.

>Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
>Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
>sense?

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
 
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Keith Davies wrote:

> David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
[...]
> > Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
> > infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
> > as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
> > going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
> > can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
> > character's recuperation from injury.

> Indeed it would. I'll even allow that a cleric in a poor farming
> village wouldn't charge the villagers the normal 15gp casting cost
> (10 * spell level * caster level, * 1/2 because it's a 0-level spell).

It strikes me as a sensible allowance; presumably one of the things
that Good religions do with the charity monies they receive is using
them to subsidize healing for the poor.

And even a first level cleric can cast CLW, not to mention CMW. I
think, between the two, you'd see a whole lot less death by
misadventure (and possibly childbirth, depending on the details of the
"damage" involved).
[...]
 
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mike wrote:
> Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?

Blame Moorcock with his Law/Chaos legacy.

> Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
> Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
> sense?

Setting amood; making the players have to choose.

Brandon
 
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Keith Davies wrote:
[Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
> the duration).

And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream
and casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever
it takes to break the drought for everyone in the entire river
valley. Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these
high level spells, he'll need a security force to keep
distractions away...adventure seed!

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
 
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>mike wrote:
>The subject title says a lot.
>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>time dealing with science derived technology.

G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
technology could work together side by side just fine.
To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
of disease, vaccination or antibiotics. If golems can do the boring
repetative tasks there will be less incentive to develop technology
like waterwheels or windmills. The result can be a unusual looking
technology that get's the effects of a high tech world with magical
means. Things could of course go the other way, if technology figures
out a solution first a particular branch of magic might not develop.
Likewise if your world has fewer mages a technological solution might
end up being cheaper and easyer than the magical one so the magical
solution will end up being left by the wayside (unless those in power
deliberately supress the technology).
IMO though if magic and technology develop side by side the chances of
getting technology like what we have now are pretty low. The
technology that does develop could be pretty interesting though.
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:26:03 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
> society.

I think it will markedly change society, just not the lives of the
poorer folks. Rather like the introduction of modern businesses and
medicine into the thrid world, really.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
 
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In article <bhokc1tbv4ivcrgllut89dfji1qpvfmp9t@4ax.com>,
mike <Spam.mike@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
> lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
> >
> >Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂
>
> This subject is dangerous !
> But only because I tend to go on a bit 🙂
> Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?

Because the authors are ignorent of things like _Day the Universe Changed_
by James Burke or _The Dancing Wu Li Masters_ by Gary Zukav and the fact
that science itself falls into two sections; natural (hard) and social
(soft) which have slightly different standards.

> The subject title says a lot.
> But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
> time dealing with science derived technology.

But technology is NOT science.
 
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Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
news:bgrubb-40B5DB.04435705072005@news.zianet.com:


> This opens up the issue of what falls under 'magic' For D&D one tends
> to focus on spells almost to the exclusion of all else but GURPS
> Fantasy reminds you that is more MUCH MORE.
>
> First you have kinds of magic items: Natural, Alchemy (which in D&D is
> really wimpy compared to GURPS), Enchantment, Fetiches, and Holy
> Relics.

D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of Legacy we
have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up in level. Then
you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten Realm's Shadow Weave
items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.

> Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
> indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
> blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
> easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having healing
> properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and Moly which
> can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The idea of plants
> having low magic properties in D&D showed up in "Wounds and Weeds"
> (Dragon #82)
>
> Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with all
> the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of this kind
> of magic.
>
> Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D Spell
> casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell casting as
> it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low (the home remedy
> level)

With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like abilities,
artificer abilities, I don't see the problem. Plus, the future Magic of
Incarnum's -soul power- promises a radical new magic system different
from anything seen before in D&D.

> Finally you have the issue of how common each of these is; something
> D&D is not helpful at at all. Sure you have good handle on the High
> magic and enchantments but little else. 'D&D magic' is just not
> spells.
>

That really depends upon the individual campaign.
 
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In article <Xns968A928EDCC68619void@199.45.49.11>,
Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
> news:bgrubb-40B5DB.04435705072005@news.zianet.com:
>
>
> > This opens up the issue of what falls under 'magic' For D&D one tends
> > to focus on spells almost to the exclusion of all else but GURPS
> > Fantasy reminds you that is more MUCH MORE.
> >
> > First you have kinds of magic items: Natural, Alchemy (which in D&D is
> > really wimpy compared to GURPS), Enchantment, Fetiches, and Holy
> > Relics.
>
> D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
> Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of Legacy we
> have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up in level. Then
> you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten Realm's Shadow Weave
> items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.

But if you throw in non-core books the whole social-political setting
implied in the core books takes a trip into la la land. Heck I have ran D&D
games with GURPS Magic in place of D&D standard magic system.

> > Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
> > indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
> > blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
> > easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having healing
> > properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and Moly which
> > can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The idea of plants
> > having low magic properties in D&D showed up in "Wounds and Weeds"
> > (Dragon #82)
> >
> > Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with all
> > the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of this kind
> > of magic.
> >
> > Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D Spell
> > casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell casting as
> > it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low (the home remedy
> > level)
>
> With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like abilities,
> artificer abilities, I don't see the problem.

The types of magic in of themselves are not a problem; how *common* they
are IS.

> Plus, the future Magic of Incarnum's -soul power- promises a
> radical new magic system different
> from anything seen before in D&D.

Quite frankly I am not impressed but then again I have been using GURPS
Magic as far back as when it was GURPS Fantasy 1e (1986) in place of D&D's
magic system. I posted how to do this and have brought it up to date for
GURPS 4e and D&D3.x
<http://members.aol.com/BruceG6069/GURPS_magic_in_DnD.html>
 
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In article <1120601672.604578.54080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com> wrote:

> >mike wrote:
> >The subject title says a lot.
> >But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
> >time dealing with science derived technology.
>
> G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
> this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
> of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
> most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
> reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
> technology could work together side by side just fine.
> To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
> have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
> other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
> diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
> of disease, vaccination or antibiotics. If golems can do the boring
> repetative tasks there will be less incentive to develop technology
> like waterwheels or windmills.

All this depends on how costly it is to make these things. In AD&D it was
insanely expensive to make one golem and even in GUPRS it is not cheap. If
your society will tolerate them Zombies are more effective energy costwise.

Then there is the issue of how the magic works which really mess things up.



> IMO though if magic and technology develop side by side the chances of
> getting technology like what we have now are pretty low. The
> technology that does develop could be pretty interesting though.

Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
 
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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:26:03 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
>> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
>> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
>> society.
>
> I think it will markedly change society, just not the lives of the
> poorer folks. Rather like the introduction of modern businesses and
> medicine into the thrid world, really.

Which is about what I figure it'd do. IOW: for most people, things
would be much as they were.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndck2uq.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>> According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
>> tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
>> That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
>> there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.
>>
>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>> the duration).
>
> I forget do these tables include Adapt (the NPC version of spell casters
> like the Cleric and Wizard)? If not that royally hoses your calculations.

They do. They are as common as clerics, according to the tables, and
do have /create water/, but have less spellcasting capacity than
clerics.

>> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
>> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
>> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
>> society.
>
> The flip side of this problem is given all the supernatural critters
> in the MM how could such a community survive with so little magic?
> This is where D&D has major problems: it tries to keep the spell
> casing classes rare and yet has dozens of magical critters running
> amok though the countryside.

Well-settled areas will tend to not see those creatures on a regular
basis. In less-settled areas (frontier and the like) the villages will
probably be better fortified (a stockade, perhaps) and will probably be
much closer to more solid defenses (keep, manor house, *something*).
And the local lord is more likely to have some troops available for
dealing with such situations.

It's still not much. It might be easier to consider borderlands to have
about the same overall danger as if the magic beasties weren't there --
if there's a neighboring country, expect border clashes (or at least
testing the border), but the neighbor prevents many monsters from
getting there. If there isn't a neighboring country, there are
monsters, with about as much combined danger -- usually -- as neighbors
would provide.

Bear in mind too that many monsters are just looking for food. They'll
probably focus more on herds than herders. Many of them, at least. No,
the peasants might not be able to do much to stop it, but it'll move on
after having lunch. Maybe.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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Pillsy <pillsy@mac.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
>> David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> [...]
>> > Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
>> > infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
>> > as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
>> > going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
>> > can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
>> > character's recuperation from injury.
>
>> Indeed it would. I'll even allow that a cleric in a poor farming
>> village wouldn't charge the villagers the normal 15gp casting cost
>> (10 * spell level * caster level, * 1/2 because it's a 0-level spell).
>
> It strikes me as a sensible allowance; presumably one of the things
> that Good religions do with the charity monies they receive is using
> them to subsidize healing for the poor.

Indeed. I assume that's how it works -- charge those who can afford it,
to subsidize those who can't (and probably have greater need, at that).

> And even a first level cleric can cast CLW, not to mention CMW. I
> think, between the two, you'd see a whole lot less death by
> misadventure (and possibly childbirth, depending on the details of the
> "damage" involved).
> [...]

Hmm... on the one hand magic can have this effect. However, looking at
the rules it's probably not that profound, unless the cleric is handy.
If the peasant's got even one hit point left he can get back home and
will be back to top condition inside of a week. If he gets knocked
below zero, there's a decent chance he'll bleed out unless the cleric
can get there in under a minute. If he stabilizes his friends could get
him to the cleric (or the cleric to him), but barring additional damage
he'll then recover on his own anyway. That is, with cure spells it only
makes a difference if the cleric is right there.

The other cases either the guy dies, or gets better, on his own. The
cleric can't be *everywhere*. Now, in a city it may well be easier to
find a capable cleric fast enough -- shorter distances, more clerics
(fewer per capita, though), and more powerful -- but only a small
fraction of the population is urban.

Most people are commoners -- Com1 at that. Any significant damage will
probably kill them outright; anything less, they'll get better without
magic. IOW, magic actually doesn't have much effect because there's
such a small window where healing magic can be applied such that it
makes a difference, to most people at least.


Heh, even today -- we've probably got more medical types per capita
today than they had clerics then, and finding someone with so much as
(significant) first aid can take more than a minute. *911* doesn't get
a medic to you under a minute.

It could be that those about to go on 'dangerous jobs' (treefalling,
say) might be given a potion of /cure light wounds/ or two, just in
case, and I'm very sure that a professional (and well-paid) midwife
would almost certainly carry one or two. However, this gets more
expensive (services might be discounted or free, but item creation,
probably not).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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firelock_ny@hotmail.com <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
> [Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
> keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>> the duration).
>
> And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
> casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
> break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.

If that happens...

> Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
> he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
> seed!

and this is why it might not.

Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
 
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On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:53 +0000 (UTC), mlush@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr.
M.J. Lush) wrote:

>In article <bgrubb-617C8F.03530605072005@news.zianet.com>,
>Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>>Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂
>
>
>OK here is an opening question...
>
>Is it possible to quantitate the number of manna points available
>per year per unit population, In low, medium, or high manna worlds.

No. While it might be possible there's an upper limit no world has
reached it in any GURPS product. And the fact that the Tech college
allows you to do stuff like turning hydro-power into mana and the
enchantment rules indicate that you can get mana just from ordinary
people, indicates that while magic may produce "pollution" it isn't a
depletable resource and there's no hard limit to how much can be used.


No, the main restricting factor on GURP wizardry is the distribution
of magic aptitude and educational achievement. Assuming of course
that wizardry is no more restrained by fear of demons than the
internal combustion engine is restrained by fear of traffic accidents.


Of course in a world where really systematic exploitation of magic has
started to happen, actual spell casting is likely to be relatively
uncommon in the world at large. It might even be illegal to cast
spells in uncontrolled conditions when magic items are much more
reliable. The typical spell casting wizard, is more likely to be
found in an enchantment factory turning out those magic items, and
disposing of the occasional demon from a muffed enchantment, while
people with magic aptitude who aren't inclined to become salarimen
rely on their ability to use magic items that mundanes can't. And if
the society has mastered the art of using things like volcanos and
waterfalls as powersources for enchantment, magic items, while not
quite able to be cranked out ala Henry Ford, can be produced at a
level that insures that all save the poorest members of society will
have at least one magic item. The magic items will compensate for
their relatively slow production time by being made to last and be
passed down through the generations. Of course there's also alchemy,
but it may not have the same potential since it seems dubious that the
mana enriched plants used to make the potions can be commercially
farmed on a large scale. At least, it might be hard to find the right
fertiliser.
 
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On 5 Jul 2005 11:17:23 GMT, Robert Singers
<rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>Between saving the world and having a spot of tea said
>
>> Btw: the supernatural critters in the MM aren't supposed to roam the
>> countryside under normal circumstances. They're supposed to roam the
>> wildlands. When they start roaming the countryside, that's when you
>> send out the call for idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hheroic adventurers.
>
>BTW Grubb uses 'problem' when he means I don't understand and Suttie hasn't
>told me what to think.

To be fair, he'll accept the word of Cocytus on what to think as well.

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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:

>firelock_ny@hotmail.com <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Keith Davies wrote:
>> [Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
>> keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
>>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>>> the duration).
>>
>> And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
>> casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
>> break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.
>
>If that happens...
>
>> Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
>> he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
>> seed!
>
>and this is why it might not.
>
>Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
>caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
>good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.

Not even necessarily 'bad' magic. If one cleric wants the area to be
a dry grassland so his people can hunt buffalo and live their
traditional nomadic life, while another wants a lush farmland for his
agrarian worshippers, they're going to be asking different things of
the weather without necessarily being evil.
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Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
news:bgrubb-DFE396.18095305072005@news.zianet.com:

> In article <Xns968A928EDCC68619void@199.45.49.11>,
> Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

>> D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
>> Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of
>> Legacy we have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up
>> in level. Then you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten
>> Realm's Shadow Weave items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.
>
> But if you throw in non-core books the whole social-political setting
> implied in the core books takes a trip into la la land. Heck I have
> ran D&D games with GURPS Magic in place of D&D standard magic system.

The core setting is just Greyhawk Lite. Plenty of official campaigns
settings have drastically different social standards and magic use.

>> > Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
>> > indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
>> > blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
>> > easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having
>> > healing properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and
>> > Moly which can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The
>> > idea of plants having low magic properties in D&D showed up in
>> > "Wounds and Weeds" (Dragon #82)
>> >
>> > Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with
>> > all the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of
>> > this kind of magic.
>> >
>> > Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D
>> > Spell casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell
>> > casting as it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low
>> > (the home remedy level)
>>
>> With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like
>> abilities, artificer abilities, I don't see the problem.
>
> The types of magic in of themselves are not a problem; how *common*
> they are IS.

D&D magic levels range from the Arcane Age of Faerun to Post-Cataclysm
Ansalon. Use the historical supplements for AD&D if you want to go back
that far. You can judge the verisimilitude for yourself.

>> Plus, the future Magic of Incarnum's -soul power- promises a
>> radical new magic system different
>> from anything seen before in D&D.
>
> Quite frankly I am not impressed but then again I have been using
> GURPS Magic as far back as when it was GURPS Fantasy 1e (1986) in
> place of D&D's magic system. I posted how to do this and have brought
> it up to date for GURPS 4e and D&D3.x
> <http://members.aol.com/BruceG6069/GURPS_magic_in_DnD.html>

Well, GURPS is made to be more flexible and generic, but I'm not familiar
with it.
 
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On 5 Jul 2005 15:14:32 -0700, "Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com>
wrote:

>>mike wrote:
>>The subject title says a lot.
>>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>>time dealing with science derived technology.
>
>G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
>this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
>of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
>most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
>reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
>technology could work together side by side just fine.
>To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
>have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
>other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
>diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
>of disease, vaccination or antibiotics.

Although it isn't likely they'd have vaccination or antibiotics if
they already Cure Disease spells generally available, I suspect that
knowing that that infectious disease is caused by these little
multiplying creatures is probably as necessary to curing it using
spells as it is using medicine, if not more so. Cure Disease has
Sterilise as a prerequisite for a reason.
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
wrote:


>
>Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
>lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
>have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
>super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
>to ours some 40 years later is about nil.

GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
power.
 
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In article <42cadb7c.30138296@news.telusplanet.net>,
rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
> >lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
> >have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
> >super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
> >to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
>
> GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
> have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
> States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
> power.

And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had) a
bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.

The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
worlds.

While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
Hindenburg though.
 
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Bruce Grubb wrote:

> And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
> idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had) a
> bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.
>
> The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
> are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
> running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
> worlds.
>
> While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
> Hindenburg though.

It's something of a genre convention that worlds with alternate
histories still have lots of weird similarities to our actual history.
Admittedly, it seems to almost be a genre convention that alternate
histories have logic holes you could fly the Hindenburg through as well,
but while I don't approve of that, I think there are ways in which the
convention of retaining considerable similarity to actual history can be
beneficial for a game setting.

--
Aaron Boyden

"I may have done this and that for sufferers; but always I seemed to
have done better when I learned to feel better joys."
-Thus spoke Zarathustra