Magic vs. technology (was: Musings on Alignment)

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:
> Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
> caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
> good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.

And now (since we're doing divine magic) we get into the realm
of "my god (acting through his mortal agents) is tougher than
your god (acting through *his* mortal agents). Whoever wins
this contest is going to have prizes bigger than "my river
valley got enough rain this year and yours didn't".

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:39:52 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
wrote:

>In article <42cadb7c.30138296@news.telusplanet.net>,
> rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
>> >lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
>> >have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
>> >super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
>> >to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
>>
>> GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
>> have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
>> States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
>> power.
>
>And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
>idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had) a
>bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.
>
>The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
>are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
>running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
>worlds.

You'd prefer if he died a month earlier in Baltimore?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
>>caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
>>good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.
>
> Not even necessarily 'bad' magic. If one cleric wants the area to be
> a dry grassland so his people can hunt buffalo and live their
> traditional nomadic life, while another wants a lush farmland for his
> agrarian worshippers, they're going to be asking different things of
> the weather without necessarily being evil.

Fair enough. 'Bad' perhaps does suggest evil, I'd actually meant
something like you'd said -- 'magic of contrary purpose', rather than
outright malice.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[KAOS]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:25:45 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
>><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
>>>caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
>>>good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.
>>
>> Not even necessarily 'bad' magic. If one cleric wants the area to be
>> a dry grassland so his people can hunt buffalo and live their
>> traditional nomadic life, while another wants a lush farmland for his
>> agrarian worshippers, they're going to be asking different things of
>> the weather without necessarily being evil.
>
>Fair enough. 'Bad' perhaps does suggest evil, I'd actually meant
>something like you'd said -- 'magic of contrary purpose', rather than
>outright malice.

I thought of that while I was typing it, but figured there's enough
chance others would assume 'bad' meant Evil that it was worth saying
anyway.
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:25:45 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>Fair enough. 'Bad' perhaps does suggest evil, I'd actually meant
>>something like you'd said -- 'magic of contrary purpose', rather than
>>outright malice.
>
> I thought of that while I was typing it, but figured there's enough
> chance others would assume 'bad' meant Evil that it was worth saying
> anyway.

Fair point. Some people fail to make the distinction that 'not what I
want' doesn't mean 'evil'. I don't always spell things out, assuming an
intelligent audience (I should maybe start doing that; I don't like
redundancy in writing, but if it avoids dumb arguments...).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:06:10 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:26:03 GMT, Keith Davies
> ><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> >
> >> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
> >> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
> >> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
> >> society.
> >
> > I think it will markedly change society, just not the lives of the
> > poorer folks. Rather like the introduction of modern businesses and
> > medicine into the thrid world, really.
>
> Which is about what I figure it'd do. IOW: for most people, things
> would be much as they were.

Nah. Worse - the richer live longer, healthier lives, so they can
accumulate even more of the wealth to themselves. The middle class are
a bit better off - they provide things the rich need or want (like
this cool magical stuff), but the poor really hurt until the level of
permanent magic items gets high enough that they start filtering all
the way down (which will probably take centuries).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
> > casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
> > break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.
>
> If that happens...
>
> > Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
> > he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
> > seed!
>
> and this is why it might not.
>
> Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
> caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
> good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.

Then there's the minor issue of where that 'weather' comes from - if
the spell just pulls in rain clouds from the area around it it could
well just transfer the drought from one valley to the next.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> > And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
>> > casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
>> > break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.
>>
>> If that happens...
>>
>> > Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
>> > he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
>> > seed!
>>
>> and this is why it might not.
>>
>> Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
>> caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
>> good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.
>
> Then there's the minor issue of where that 'weather' comes from - if
> the spell just pulls in rain clouds from the area around it it could
> well just transfer the drought from one valley to the next.

Yeah, I was just thinking about this. Even if this isn't true -- it
calls up water from nowhere -- even so it might not *fix* anything. It
might help more people over a larger area (anyone whose water comes from
this river) but unless it actually changes the weather pattern it may
still be bone dry *after*. Or worse, if the storms take whatever
moisture there was out of the air.

That is, if the natural weather conditions are such that it's going to
be a three-month drought, your little spells aren't going to break the
drought, not really. They may provide some water, might even provide
enough to get by, but the drought's still 'really there'. You stop
casting the spells, you'll see it again.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:37:40 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Hmm... on the one hand magic can have this effect. However, looking at
> the rules it's probably not that profound, unless the cleric is handy.
> If the peasant's got even one hit point left he can get back home and
> will be back to top condition inside of a week. If he gets knocked
> below zero, there's a decent chance he'll bleed out unless the cleric
> can get there in under a minute. If he stabilizes his friends could get
> him to the cleric (or the cleric to him), but barring additional damage
> he'll then recover on his own anyway. That is, with cure spells it only
> makes a difference if the cleric is right there.

You need to be treated with a sucessful Heal check or you'll have to
keep making checks for HP loss, though at a lower rate. Commoners
don't have Heal as a class skill, so the majority of them will be
using it untrained. I suspect the main healing done by village clerics
and adepts will be simply through the use of the Heal skill, or the
use of CMinorW on 'self-stabilised' characters to start them on the
road to recovery.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:37:40 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Hmm... on the one hand magic can have this effect. However, looking at
>> the rules it's probably not that profound, unless the cleric is handy.
>> If the peasant's got even one hit point left he can get back home and
>> will be back to top condition inside of a week. If he gets knocked
>> below zero, there's a decent chance he'll bleed out unless the cleric
>> can get there in under a minute. If he stabilizes his friends could get
>> him to the cleric (or the cleric to him), but barring additional damage
>> he'll then recover on his own anyway. That is, with cure spells it only
>> makes a difference if the cleric is right there.
>
> You need to be treated with a sucessful Heal check or you'll have to
> keep making checks for HP loss, though at a lower rate. Commoners
> don't have Heal as a class skill, so the majority of them will be
> using it untrained. I suspect the main healing done by village clerics
> and adepts will be simply through the use of the Heal skill, or the
> use of CMinorW on 'self-stabilised' characters to start them on the
> road to recovery.

(I've never had to apply the stabilized-and-recovering rules. The
closest I've come is 'thank gods, stabilized. Now nobody step on me
until the cleric can zap me, okay?')


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:39:52 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
wrote:

>In article <42cadb7c.30138296@news.telusplanet.net>,
> rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
>> >lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
>> >have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
>> >super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
>> >to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
>>
>> GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
>> have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
>> States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
>> power.
>
>And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
>idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had)

IIRC, that idea was lifted from DC Comics' "Justice League" titles of
the time.

> a
>bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.
>
>The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
>are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
>running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
>worlds.

That isn't unusual for alternate-history settings, actually. Another
example is of the change event happening in Imperial Rome or medieval
Europe, but some guy named Chris discovers the Americas in 1492 anyway.

One gets used to it.

>While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
>Hindenburg though.

So does real life...

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:05:02 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > You need to be treated with a sucessful Heal check or you'll have to
> > keep making checks for HP loss, though at a lower rate. Commoners
> > don't have Heal as a class skill, so the majority of them will be
> > using it untrained. I suspect the main healing done by village clerics
> > and adepts will be simply through the use of the Heal skill, or the
> > use of CMinorW on 'self-stabilised' characters to start them on the
> > road to recovery.
>
> (I've never had to apply the stabilized-and-recovering rules. The
> closest I've come is 'thank gods, stabilized. Now nobody step on me
> until the cleric can zap me, okay?')

I haven't either, but they came up once, because it looked like they
might be relevant. In the event they weren't (the cleric didn't go
down as we expected him to do).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:42ca7b75.5552040@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:53 +0000 (UTC), mlush@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr.
> M.J. Lush) wrote:
>
> >In article <bgrubb-617C8F.03530605072005@news.zianet.com>,
> >Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>Ask and you shall recieve. 🙂
> >
> >
> >OK here is an opening question...
> >
> >Is it possible to quantitate the number of manna points available
> >per year per unit population, In low, medium, or high manna worlds.
>
> No. While it might be possible there's an upper limit no world has
> reached it in any GURPS product. And the fact that the Tech college
> allows you to do stuff like turning hydro-power into mana and the
> enchantment rules indicate that you can get mana just from ordinary
> people, indicates that while magic may produce "pollution" it isn't a
> depletable resource and there's no hard limit to how much can be used.
>
>
> No, the main restricting factor on GURP wizardry is the distribution
> of magic aptitude and educational achievement. Assuming of course
> that wizardry is no more restrained by fear of demons than the
> internal combustion engine is restrained by fear of traffic accidents.
>
>
> Of course in a world where really systematic exploitation of magic has
> started to happen, actual spell casting is likely to be relatively
> uncommon in the world at large. It might even be illegal to cast
> spells in uncontrolled conditions when magic items are much more
> reliable. The typical spell casting wizard, is more likely to be
> found in an enchantment factory turning out those magic items, and
> disposing of the occasional demon from a muffed enchantment, while
> people with magic aptitude who aren't inclined to become salarimen
> rely on their ability to use magic items that mundanes can't. And if

Okay . . . I just got this mental image of a whole bunch of grungy mages
in a sweatshop making subsistence wages turning out Rings of Glamour to
be sold at ridiculous markup to the wealthy, foolish and vain. Locate
the shop in a small country with high mana and a native population
that's fairly primitive, and teach the brightest just enough magic to
turn out the rings. Use the rest like batteries. This has the makings of
a fairly interesting plot convolution.

--
Rob

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrndclmul.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrndck2uq.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
>> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>
>>> According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
>>> tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
>>> That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
>>> there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.
>>>
>>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>>> the duration).
>>
>> I forget do these tables include Adapt (the NPC version of spell casters
>> like the Cleric and Wizard)? If not that royally hoses your calculations.
>
> They do. They are as common as clerics, according to the tables, and
> do have /create water/, but have less spellcasting capacity than
> clerics.

The third option would be a friendly druid, with a max level of d6-3 (95% of
the time) or d6+7 (5% of the time). Of course this requires the druid being
willing to help, which is far less of a given than either cleric or adept.

--
All the best,
RF

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <ectnc1l7m3oi3lthhkpr37k1ic7redu9ra@4ax.com>,
Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:39:52 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <42cadb7c.30138296@news.telusplanet.net>,
> > rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply
> >> >got
> >> >lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
> >> >have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic
> >> >or
> >> >super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history
> >> >close
> >> >to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
> >>
> >> GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
> >> have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
> >> States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
> >> power.
> >
> >And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
> >idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had)
>
> IIRC, that idea was lifted from DC Comics' "Justice League" titles of
> the time.

Actually Justice League America #4 came out in 1990. GURPS Technomancer
came out in 1998. I am still inclined to agree with Wally West about
fighting Killer Penguins: "..what has to be the STUPIDEST case in the
history of superheroes" (Page 52 panel 4)

> > a
> >bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.
> >
> >The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
> >are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
> >running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
> >worlds.
>
> That isn't unusual for alternate-history settings, actually. Another
> example is of the change event happening in Imperial Rome or medieval
> Europe, but some guy named Chris discovers the Americas in 1492 anyway.

Actually I have not seen one of those in a while.


> One gets used to it.
>
> >While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
> >Hindenburg though.
>
> So does real life...

Not the kind GURPS Technomancer has.

1) Alterante Historical holes

Technomancer espresly states that unless noted things follow our history
which in many places simply don't make sence. For example, it is hard to see
Joseph Mccarthy going on his Anticommunist witchhunt with all the problems
of the Hellstorms around.

Similarlly one of the reasons that Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes
of the military establishment was his arguement against the Hydrogen bomb
(he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 would
have prevented Oppenheimer from being pushed out of the decision process as
he was in our history.

Another one is given the Gadget was useless as a weapon how on earth was the
US able to get Japan to surrender? Even after Nagasaki in our timeline
there were still those would fight no matter what. How do you get
hardliners who are running to believe you? Also given the spies he had why
did Stalin agree to declair war on Japan in this timeline - seems to be in
his best intrest for the US and Japan to pound each other silly

Also with Illusion and Creation spells available for movies and TV why would
Ray Harryhausen do stop motion and model work or Lucus create Industrial
Light and Magic? Also what path would anime take in a world where things
like the Demon City or the Evil Dynasty really could exist?

2) Industral Magic

GURPS Technomancer expresly states "All mages on the line are "assistants";
as usual, the require skill 15+ in the Enchant spell and the spell being
enchanted" (Technomancer 41) The problem with this is that the Enchant
spell requires Magery 2+ which means their has to be a lot of them running
around. Far more than even GURPS Fantasy 1st ed had (even in high mana only
1 in 100 people were a mage likely most being Magery 1)

3) Ignoring relevent rules or laws

Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR
cannot be turned of off any MR person called into to court would be force to
break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th
admendment rights something even my ancestor Morrison Waite (Chief Justice
1874-88) would agree with.

Similaly the Antiquities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment
(graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples) make the
whole Louisiana undead chaingang thing rediculous. It also ignores the fact
that abuses like those documented in movie _I Am A Fugitive From A Chain
Gang_ (1932) and book it was based on _I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain
Gang_ effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years.

4) Absolutely silly ideas.

The Russians setting off an atomic bomb in 1949 in Antartica and the
resulting Killer Penguins being the most ridiculous idea in the book. Given
what the gadget did why would Russia even try to test an atomic bomb?
Furthermore givne the limits of technology in 49 why try to test it in such
a difficult place? Siberia makes far more sence.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
> Well, they could have just invited a representative of Japan to have a
> look at the vortex and told them what would happen next. That should
> do the trick.

Depending on how soon it was, if the magical effect is discovered in
the meantime Japan might call the bluff. Nobody knew the second
hellstorm would be larger, and the access to a high mana area might
give Japan a second wind.

> Not if you think you may end up with a hellstorm on your hands.
> Antartica was the most remote place possible from Russia.

They also lose the magical benefits of the hellstorm. Siberia would be
better, remote enough to be safe yet easy for Soviet mages to access.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Jvl 2005 18:16:56 -0600, Brvce Grvbb <bgrvbb@zianet.com>
wrote:


>Not the kind GURPS Technomancer has.
>
>1) Alterante Historical holes
>
>Technomancer espresly states that vnless noted things follow ovr history

Well obviovsly only in general terms.

>which in many places simply don't make sence. For example, it is hard to see
>Joseph Mccarthy going on his Anticommvnist witchhvnt with all the problems
>of the Hellstorms arovnd.

While it might be fvn to see McCarthy going on a literal witchhvnt for
people with magic aptitvde instead, I don't see why people wovld stop
worrying abovt Commvnism jvst becavse there is a vortex of destrvction
in New Mexico, thovgh.

>
>Similarlly one of the reasons that Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes
>of the military establishment was his argvement against the Hydrogen bomb
>(he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 wovld
>have prevented Oppenheimer from being pvshed ovt of the decision process as
>he was in ovr history.

Nah. What wovld have pvshed him ovt of the decision process is being
personally responsible for the freakin' Hellstorm!

>
>Another one is given the Gadget was vseless as a weapon how on earth was the
>US able to get Japan to svrrender?

Well, they covld have jvst invited a representative of Japan to have a
look at the vortex and told them what wovld happen next. That shovld
do the trick. Bvt actvally the entry of the Soviet Union into the war
very likely wovld have been svfficient to get the Japanese to
svrrender shortly afterward bomb or no bomb. If it didn't, the
svccessfvl invasion by the Americans wovld likely be enovgh. People
over-rate the importance of the bombs in getting Japan to svrrender.
It was scary to think a single bomb covld do that mvch damage, bvt on
the other hand it did less damage than a lot of the conventional
bombing raids they'd already endvred.

Even after Nagasaki in ovr timeline
>there were still those wovld fight no matter what. How do yov get
>hardliners who are rvnning to believe yov? Also given the spies he had why
>did Stalin agree to declair war on Japan in this timeline - seems to be in
>his best intrest for the US and Japan to povnd each other silly

What, and give vp North Korea? It's not like Japan had mvch left to
fight with so the United States wovldn't actvally be weakened very
mvch. No, declaring war on Japan makes the same sense to Rvssia that
it did OTL>

>
>Also with Illvsion and Creation spells available for movies and TV why wovld
>Ray Harryhavsen do stop motion and model work or Lvcvs create Indvstrial
>Light and Magic?

I don't think that's the kind of history they were talking abovt. Bvt
I'd assvme that Harryhavsen pioneered the vse of some kind of
magically animated models for and ILM actvally means it when they say
"Light and Magic".

Also what path wovld anime take in a world where things
>like the Demon City or the Evil Dynasty really covld exist?
>
>2) Indvstral Magic
>
>GURPS Technomancer expresly states "All mages on the line are "assistants";
>as vsval, the reqvire skill 15+ in the Enchant spell and the spell being
>enchanted" (Technomancer 41) The problem with this is that the Enchant
>spell reqvires Magery 2+ which means their has to be a lot of them rvnning
>arovnd. Far more than even GURPS Fantasy 1st ed had (even in high mana only
>1 in 100 people were a mage likely most being Magery 1)

Yov know it is possible to learn a spell for which yov lack the
prereqvisite to cast it. It wovld probably help a lot with mass
enchantments if only the primary enchanter had to have the Magery 2.

>
>Similaly the Antiqvities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment
>(graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples)

Doesn't that mean the native peoples can sell them?

make the
>whole Lovisiana vndead chaingang thing redicvlovs. It also ignores the fact
>that abvses like those docvmented in movie _I Am A Fvgitive From A Chain
>Gang_ (1932) and book it was based on _I Am a Fvgitive from a Georgia Chain
>Gang_ effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years.

Wovld that apply to zombies?

>
>4) Absolvtely silly ideas.
>
>The Rvssians setting off an atomic bomb in 1949 in Antartica and the
>resvlting Killer Pengvins being the most ridicvlovs idea in the book. Given
>what the gadget did why wovld Rvssia even try to test an atomic bomb?

To determine whether the Hellstorm was a freak, one of a kind
occvrence.

>Fvrthermore givne the limits of technology in 49 why try to test it in svch
>a difficvlt place? Siberia makes far more sence.

Not if yov think yov may end vp with a hellstorm on yovr hands.
Antartica was the most remote place possible from Rvssia.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 6 Jul 2005 20:45:12 -0700, pesterfield@river-valley.net wrote:

>
>
>David Johnston wrote:
>> Well, they could have just invited a representative of Japan to have a
>> look at the vortex and told them what would happen next. That should
>> do the trick.
>
>Depending on how soon it was, if the magical effect is discovered in
>the meantime Japan might call the bluff.

I can't see how Japan could discover the magical effect that quickly.



>> Not if you think you may end up with a hellstorm on your hands.
>> Antartica was the most remote place possible from Russia.
>
>They also lose the magical benefits of the hellstorm. Siberia would be
>better, remote enough to be safe yet easy for Soviet mages to access.

If the effects turned out to be manageable they could always detonate
a second device closer to hand. Keeping the first test as far away
from Russia as possible is only prudent.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42cc2285.113872205@news.telvsplanet.net>,
rgorman@telvsplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Jvl 2005 18:16:56 -0600, Brvce Grvbb <bgrvbb@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Not the kind GURPS Technomancer has.
> >
> >1) Alterante Historical holes
> >
> >Technomancer espresly states that vnless noted things follow ovr history
>
> Well obviovsly only in general terms.
>
> >which in many places simply don't make sence. For example, it is hard to see
> >Joseph Mccarthy going on his Anticommvnist witchhvnt with all the problems
> >of the Hellstorms arovnd.
>
> While it might be fvn to see McCarthy going on a literal witchhvnt for
> people with magic aptitvde instead, I don't see why people wovld stop
> worrying abovt Commvnism jvst becavse there is a vortex of destrvction
> in New Mexico, thovgh.

Are yov being sarcastic or simply dense? Besides depending on how far along
vnderstanding of the


> >Similarlly one of the reasons that Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes
> >of the military establishment was his argvement against the Hydrogen bomb
> >(he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 wovld
> >have prevented Oppenheimer from being pvshed ovt of the decision process as
> >he was in ovr history.
>
> Nah. What wovld have pvshed him ovt of the decision process is being
> personally responsible for the freakin' Hellstorm!

Come on. Oppenheimer had been worried abovt the the thing setting the
atmosphere abaze, the weapon taking ovt the whole freaking state of New
Mexico and so on. When these fears were relayed to his svperiors the order
was given 'go ahead.'


> >Another one is given the Gadget was vseless as a weapon how on earth was the
> >US able to get Japan to svrrender?
>
> Well, they covld have jvst invited a representative of Japan to have a
> look at the vortex and told them what wovld happen next. That shovld
> do the trick.

If it was *that* simple they covld have done that with the atomic bomb IOH
never mind that if Japan


> Bvt actvally the entry of the Soviet Union into the war
> very likely wovld have been svfficient to get the Japanese to
> svrrender shortly afterward bomb or no bomb. If it didn't, the
> svccessfvl invasion by the Americans wovld likely be enovgh. People
> over-rate the importance of the bombs in getting Japan to svrrender.
> It was scary to think a single bomb covld do that mvch damage, bvt on
> the other hand it did less damage than a lot of the conventional
> bombing raids they'd already endvred.

Yov are forgetting that the Japanese leaders had portraid the US people as
monsters. Also remember that US was still dealing with
>
> > Even after Nagasaki in ovr timeline
> >there were still those wovld fight no matter what. How do yov get
> >hardliners who are rvnning to believe yov? Also given the spies he had why
> >did Stalin agree to declair war on Japan in this timeline - seems to be in
> >his best intrest for the US and Japan to povnd each other silly
>
> What, and give vp North Korea? It's not like Japan had mvch left to
> fight with so the United States wovldn't actvally be weakened very
> mvch. No, declaring war on Japan makes the same sense to Rvssia that
> it did OTL>

Remember Stalin had a spy deep in the project. Knowing this it shovld not
strike anyone as odd for Stalin to delare war the day before Hiroshima.
With no bomb ITTL there is no insentive for Stalin not to keep stringing
the Japanese ambassadors along with their backdoor attempts at svrrendering
to the US.

> >Also with Illvsion and Creation spells available for movies and TV why wovld
> >Ray Harryhavsen do stop motion and model work or Lvcvs create Indvstrial
> >Light and Magic?
>
> I don't think that's the kind of history they were talking abovt. Bvt
> I'd assvme that Harryhavsen pioneered the vse of some kind of
> magically animated models for and ILM actvally means it when they say
> "Light and Magic".
>
> Also what path wovld anime take in a world where things
> >like the Demon City or the Evil Dynasty really covld exist?
> >
> >2) Indvstral Magic
> >
> >GURPS Technomancer expresly states "All mages on the line are "assistants";
> >as vsval, the reqvire skill 15+ in the Enchant spell and the spell being
> >enchanted" (Technomancer 41) The problem with this is that the Enchant
> >spell reqvires Magery 2+ which means their has to be a lot of them rvnning
> >arovnd. Far more than even GURPS Fantasy 1st ed had (even in high mana only
> >1 in 100 people were a mage likely most being Magery 1)
>
> Yov know it is possible to learn a spell for which yov lack the
> prereqvisite to cast it.

Only vnder the Magic (Ritval) system which based on GURPS Technomancer's
comment on Voodoo does NOT work on Merlin. Conversely if Magic (Ritval)
does work on Merlin then things are no where as simple as they once were.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <1120707912.806325.218090@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
pesterfield@river-valley.net wrote:

> David Johnston wrote:
> > Well, they could have just invited a representative of Japan to have a
> > look at the vortex and told them what would happen next. That should
> > do the trick.
>
> Depending on how soon it was, if the magical effect is discovered in
> the meantime Japan might call the bluff. Nobody knew the second
> hellstorm would be larger, and the access to a high mana area might
> give Japan a second wind.
>
> > Not if you think you may end up with a hellstorm on your hands.
> > Antartica was the most remote place possible from Russia.
>
> They also lose the magical benefits of the hellstorm. Siberia would be
> better, remote enough to be safe yet easy for Soviet mages to access.

Which is my whole point. Stalin may have been a paranoid sociopath but he
was not stupid. Testing another atomic bomb in Antartica. Also as shown in
History Channel's "Stealing the Superfortress" the whole motivation behind
that project with really helped the soviet development program is gone.

 

[Mika]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

[SNIP]
> Not the kind GURPS Technomancer has.
>
> 1) Alterante Historical holes
>
> Technomancer espresly states that unless noted things follow our history
> which in many places simply don't make sence. For example, it is hard to see
> Joseph Mccarthy going on his Anticommunist witchhunt with all the problems
> of the Hellstorms around.

Weeelll taken all the insanity that was routinely practiced in 50's. I
don't see why not, just stress fact "witchhunt"

> Similarlly one of the reasons that Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes
> of the military establishment was his arguement against the Hydrogen bomb
> (he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 would
> have prevented Oppenheimer from being pushed out of the decision process as
> he was in our history.

Hmm. Oppenheimer did commit a suicide (IIRC). I think seeing something
as irrational as hellstorm (and later knowing that you were a catalyst
in it's creation, would have driven him to take his own life)

> Also with Illusion and Creation spells available for movies and TV why would
> Ray Harryhausen do stop motion and model work or Lucus create Industrial
> Light and Magic? Also what path would anime take in a world where things
> like the Demon City or the Evil Dynasty really could exist?

More stuff like Maison Ikkoku (if magic and demons were real... I guess
that more mundane stories, or more scifi would fit in.)

> 2) Industral Magic
>
> GURPS Technomancer expresly states "All mages on the line are "assistants";
> as usual, the require skill 15+ in the Enchant spell and the spell being
> enchanted" (Technomancer 41) The problem with this is that the Enchant
> spell requires Magery 2+ which means their has to be a lot of them running
> around. Far more than even GURPS Fantasy 1st ed had (even in high mana only
> 1 in 100 people were a mage likely most being Magery 1)

Mostly in my technomancer campaign I've simply used the industrial
enchantment as part of the backround and occasional plot device, never
going in the specifics.

> 3) Ignoring relevent rules or laws
>
> Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR
> cannot be turned of off any MR person called into to court would be force to
> break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th
> admendment rights something even my ancestor Morrison Waite (Chief Justice
> 1874-88) would agree with.

I'd say that, the US propably made an amendment to an amendment to fix
the issue. Despite the outcry from constitutionalists(correct word?). I
think people would find amendment like that livable if spell in case is
foolproof.(Unlike the realworld polygraph test...)

> Similaly the Antiquities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment
> (graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples) make the
> whole Louisiana undead chaingang thing rediculous. It also ignores the fact
> that abuses like those documented in movie _I Am A Fugitive From A Chain
> Gang_ (1932) and book it was based on _I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain
> Gang_ effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years.

But, no wait animated corpse is walking around, it's not just lying in
the grave. And if person was never buried. I know new set of problems.
Okay, I admit the idea is somewhat distasteful.

.../mika

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42ccbab3$0$11459$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
Mika <atomiclich@hotmail_com> wrote:

> [SNIP]
> > Not the kind GURPS Technomancer has.
> >
> > 1) Alterante Historical holes
> >
> > Technomancer espresly states that unless noted things follow our history
> > which in many places simply don't make sence. For example, it is hard to see
> > Joseph Mccarthy going on his Anticommunist witchhunt with all the problems
> > of the Hellstorms around.
>
> Weeelll taken all the insanity that was routinely practiced in 50's. I
> don't see why not, just stress fact "witchhunt"
>
> > Similarlly one of the reasons that Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes
> > of the military establishment was his arguement against the Hydrogen bomb
> > (he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 would
> > have prevented Oppenheimer from being pushed out of the decision process as
> > he was in our history.
>
> Hmm. Oppenheimer did commit a suicide (IIRC). I think seeing something
> as irrational as hellstorm (and later knowing that you were a catalyst
> in it's creation, would have driven him to take his own life)

IOH Oppenheimer died on Feb. 18, 1967 which from that GURPS Technomancer
says happened on Merlin as well. So if Oppenheimer committed suicide he
took a good 22 years to do it. Still does not deal with that happened
DURING those 22 years from 1945 to 1967 does it?

> > Also with Illusion and Creation spells available for movies and TV why would
> > Ray Harryhausen do stop motion and model work or Lucus create Industrial
> > Light and Magic? Also what path would anime take in a world where things
> > like the Demon City or the Evil Dynasty really could exist?
>
> More stuff like Maison Ikkoku (if magic and demons were real... I guess
> that more mundane stories, or more scifi would fit in.)
>
> > 2) Industral Magic
> >
> > GURPS Technomancer expresly states "All mages on the line are "assistants";
> > as usual, the require skill 15+ in the Enchant spell and the spell being
> > enchanted" (Technomancer 41) The problem with this is that the Enchant
> > spell requires Magery 2+ which means their has to be a lot of them running
> > around. Far more than even GURPS Fantasy 1st ed had (even in high mana only
> > 1 in 100 people were a mage likely most being Magery 1)
>
> Mostly in my technomancer campaign I've simply used the industrial
> enchantment as part of the backround and occasional plot device, never
> going in the specifics.

In this case the background tells you something VERY important about the
setting - Magery 2 and the training to use the the Enchant spell is so
common that you can use such people as blue collar workers. The implication
of this should be obvious.

>
> > 3) Ignoring relevent rules or laws
> >
> > Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR
> > cannot be turned of off any MR person called into to court would be force to
> > break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th
> > admendment rights something even my ancestor Morrison Waite (Chief Justice
> > 1874-88) would agree with.
>
> I'd say that, the US propably made an amendment to an amendment to fix
> the issue. Despite the outcry from constitutionalists(correct word?). I
> think people would find amendment like that livable if spell in case is
> foolproof.(Unlike the realworld polygraph test...)

Again GURPS Technomancer days unless it is directly mention or is obvious
from the text it happened as in our world, no alternate admendments are
mentioned so it is likely that the Constitution looks much like ours did.



>
> > Similaly the Antiquities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment
> > (graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples) make the
> > whole Louisiana undead chaingang thing rediculous. It also ignores the fact
> > that abuses like those documented in movie _I Am A Fugitive From A Chain
> > Gang_ (1932) and book it was based on _I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain
> > Gang_ effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years.
>
> But, no wait animated corpse is walking around, it's not just lying in
> the grave. And if person was never buried. I know new set of problems.
> Okay, I admit the idea is somewhat distasteful.

THe idea is stupid is what it is. Basicly what the Antiquities Act of 1906
reinforece the idea is that a body is the PROPERTY of the deceased's family
and by the Constitution the state would have to cough up just compensation.
Makes the whole effort less cost effective.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Bruce Grubb wrote:
> THe idea is stupid is what it is. Basicly what the Antiquities Act of 1906
> reinforece the idea is that a body is the PROPERTY of the deceased's family
> and by the Constitution the state would have to cough up just compensation.
> Makes the whole effort less cost effective.

It might be an interesting industry, people selling or renting bodies
of relatives for zombie labor.

Just what is a zombie smart enough to do?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <Xns968AD25E386F3619void@199.45.49.11>,
Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
> news:bgrubb-DFE396.18095305072005@news.zianet.com:
>
> > In article <Xns968A928EDCC68619void@199.45.49.11>,
> > Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> Plus, the future Magic of Incarnum's -soul power- promises a
> >> radical new magic system different
> >> from anything seen before in D&D.
> >
> > Quite frankly I am not impressed but then again I have been using
> > GURPS Magic as far back as when it was GURPS Fantasy 1e (1986) in
> > place of D&D's magic system. I posted how to do this and have brought
> > it up to date for GURPS 4e and D&D3.x
> > <http://members.aol.com/BruceG6069/GURPS_magic_in_DnD.html>
>
> Well, GURPS is made to be more flexible and generic, but I'm not familiar
> with it.

Well that can easily be corrected by going to
<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/resources.html> - loads of offical and
unoffical information that should bring up up to speed.

Using GURPS Fantasy and Magic is a great way to get away from the human
artilery pieces mentality that still survives from the game's wargame
origins.

 

[Mika]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

[SNIP}
> IOH Oppenheimer died on Feb. 18, 1967 which from that GURPS Technomancer
> says happened on Merlin as well. So if Oppenheimer committed suicide he
> took a good 22 years to do it. Still does not deal with that happened
> DURING those 22 years from 1945 to 1967 does it?

Spent in asylum for example, you're GM of your own campaign... detail a
missing either make it or improvise, for [whatever you believe] sake,man.

[SNIP again]
>>Mostly in my technomancer campaign I've simply used the industrial
>>enchantment as part of the backround and occasional plot device, never
>>going in the specifics.
>

In this case the background tells you something VERY important about the
> setting - Magery 2 and the training to use the the Enchant spell is so
> common that you can use such people as blue collar workers. The implication
> of this should be obvious.

My *** anyway, if rule is broken fix it, Even the GURPS demigod D.Pulver
will not get everything right always...

>>>3) Ignoring relevent rules or laws
>>>
>>>Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR
>>>cannot be turned of off any MR person called into to court would be force to
>>>break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th
>>>admendment rights something even my ancestor Morrison Waite (Chief Justice
>>>1874-88) would agree with.
>>
>>I'd say that, the US propably made an amendment to an amendment to fix
>>the issue. Despite the outcry from constitutionalists(correct word?). I
>>think people would find amendment like that livable if spell in case is
>>foolproof.(Unlike the realworld polygraph test...)
>
>
> Again GURPS Technomancer days unless it is directly mention or is obvious
> from the text it happened as in our world, no alternate admendments are
> mentioned so it is likely that the Constitution looks much like ours did.

If you want to keep the idea in your campaign, and it bugs you then make
a pice of personal errata. For your own campaign.

[RANT]
Ithought only people that slavishly followed the printed word, without
daring to change it, existed on D'n'D and Dreampod9 forums/mailinglists.
[/RANT]


>>But, no wait animated corpse is walking around, it's not just lying in
>>the grave. And if person was never buried. I know new set of problems.
>>Okay, I admit the idea is somewhat distasteful.

> THe idea is stupid is what it is. Basicly what the Antiquities Act of 1906
> reinforece the idea is that a body is the PROPERTY of the deceased's family
> and by the Constitution the state would have to cough up just compensation.
> Makes the whole effort less cost effective.

Pardon me for my ignorance. I am not from USA so there not really much
chance for me to know every bit of your legistlation. I was just going
around with bit "common sense" with the issue.

.../mika
PS:Just a plain Finn (IE. unformalised bufferzone between Sweden and Russia)