Mana Addition Questions

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello,

I have some questions concerning the text of several cards that talk about
adding mana.

Cards one and two:

Gemstone Array
{4}
Artifact
{2}: Put a charge counter on Gemstone Array.
Remove a charge counter from Gemstone Array: Add one mana of any color to
your mana pool.

Pentad Prism
{2}
Artifact
Sunburst (This comes into play with a charge counter on it for each color of
mana used to pay its cost.)
Remove a charge counter from Pentad Prism: Add one mana of any color to your
mana pool.

For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge counter
that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool from that point
on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?



The third card - same question:

Channel the Suns
{3}{G}
Sorcery
Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool.

Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that point
on OR just till end of turn? Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and so
it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?



And one more question while I am at it -

Hallow
{W}
Instant
Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal to
the damage prevented this way.

I get very confused by this card. Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures? Can
it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
if it targets me or a Creature?

Thanks for you help
NazMan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"NazMan" <cnazario@cinci.rr.com> writes:
> Hello,
>
> I have some questions concerning the text of several cards that talk about
> adding mana.
>
> Cards one and two:
>
> Gemstone Array
> {4}
> Artifact
> {2}: Put a charge counter on Gemstone Array.
> Remove a charge counter from Gemstone Array: Add one mana of any color to
> your mana pool.
>
> Pentad Prism
> {2}
> Artifact
> Sunburst (This comes into play with a charge counter on it for each color of
> mana used to pay its cost.)
> Remove a charge counter from Pentad Prism: Add one mana of any color to your
> mana pool.
>
> For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge
> counter that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool
> from that point on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're asking, which may mean that you
have a misunderstanding of how the mana pool works. Your mana pool is
a bank that you add mana to, and then you spend that mana to play
spells and abilities.

A basic Plains has this innate ability "{T}: Add {W} to your mana
pool." You can play this ability to get {W} in your pool, and then you
can spend it on something that costs {1} or {W}.

When you add mana to your mana pool some other way, it works the
same. You get the mana in your pool, and you can spend it on
something.

If you have unused mana in your mana pool at the end of a phase, then
you lose that mana, and you also lose a life for every mana lost this
way.

Does that clear things up?

> The third card - same question:
>
> Channel the Suns
> {3}{G}
> Sorcery
> Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool.
>
> Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that point
> on OR just till end of turn? Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
> makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and so
> it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?

It means that you have those 5 mana in your mana pool now, and can
spend it on abilities. If your main phase ends before you do, you take
mana burn.

> And one more question while I am at it -
>
> Hallow
> {W}
> Instant
> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal to
> the damage prevented this way.
>
> I get very confused by this card. Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
> or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures? Can
> it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
> if it targets me or a Creature?

It covers any spell, but only prevents damage during that turn. It can
stop a direct-damage sorcery or instant. If you cast it on a creature
spell, and that creature that the spell turns into later would deal
damage that turn, that damage would be prevented.

> Thanks for you help

You're welcome. Please post again if you need more clarification or if
you have more questions.

--
Peter C.
"That's probably because I broke it. Not that I'm admitting to it."
-- Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> writes:
> Peter Cooper Jr., worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> If you cast (Hallow) on a creature
>> spell, and that creature that the spell turns into later would deal
>> damage that turn, that damage would be prevented.
>
> Is that true? I thought it only applied to things that edit
> characteristics.

Yup. That's why I quoted the last sentence of 419.8a in my answer. The
rules are quite clear on it.

--
Peter C.
"I'm not trying to hack into the system! Or again!"
-- imets

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:35:15 GMT, NazMan wrote:

>[Gemstone Array & Pentad Prism]
>
>For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge counter
>that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool from that point
>on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?

You only get one mana per counter you remove, and once you spent that
mana (or took mana burn from it) its gone and won't be replaced.

Both cards have one-shot abilities. You pay for the cost (by removing
one counter) and get one mana in return. (Mana is stored in your mana
pool, a kind of "virtual purse" from which you spend it.)


You might be confusing mana with lands. Neither Gemstone Array nor
Pentad Prism put lands into play. Mana is the intangible "currency" with
which you pay for spells and abilities, but it has no physical
representation within the game.
For example, tapping a forest for mana (i.e. playing its mana ability)
produces one green mana which is added to your mana pool. Producing a
green mana from Pentad Prism by removing once counter also adds one
green mana to your mana pool but does not involve a forest anywhere,
even though the result is exactly the same.

>The third card - same question:
>
>Channel the Suns
>{3}{G}
>Sorcery
>Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool.
>
>Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that point
>on OR just till end of turn?

Neither. You add one mana of each color to your mana pool at the time
the spell resolves. That's it. (You could produce the same effect by
tapping a Plains, an Island, a Swamp, a Mountain, and a Forest, if you
controlled all those lands.) You cannot delay getting that mana, and you
can't get it multiple times.

>Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
>makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and so
>it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?

The mana in your pool should be spent during the current phase.
(Otherwise the unspent mana will be lost, causing mana burn.)

Channel the Suns doesn't "last" at all, though. It doesn't need to say
"until end of turn" or anything like that, because the effect of
producing mana is a one-shot thing. It has no duration to begin with, so
there's no need for a time it "wears off". It just happens once, then
you're done with it.

>And one more question while I am at it -
>
>[Hallow]
>I get very confused by this card.

When you play Hallow you need to target any spell with it. (Note that
the target cannot be an ability.) When that spell resolves, if it would
deal any damage (to any creature or player), that damage doesn't happen
but you gain that much life.
(You can target any spell with Hallow, even if that spell doesn't deal
any damage at all. In that case Hallow just won't do anything. So if you
need to get rid of a card in your hand, it's legal to cast Hallow on any
other spell on the stack.)

>Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
>or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?

And/or to another player(s) or his/her creatures, yes. Hallow helps
against any type of spell. Note, however, that creatures with
comes-into-play damaging abilities (like Flametongue Kavu) don't deal
their damage as the spell (which only puts the creature in play) but as
a triggered _ability_ (which Hallow cannot target).

>Can
>it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
>if it targets me or a Creature?

No, because, these aren't spells but abilities.

Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ingo Kemper <SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de> writes:
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:35:15 GMT, NazMan wrote:
>>[Hallow]
>>I get very confused by this card.
>>Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
>>or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?
>
> And/or to another player(s) or his/her creatures, yes. Hallow helps
> against any type of spell. Note, however, that creatures with
> comes-into-play damaging abilities (like Flametongue Kavu) don't deal
> their damage as the spell (which only puts the creature in play) but as
> a triggered _ability_ (which Hallow cannot target).

But, if you target the Flametongue Kavu spell with the Hallow, the
prevention will in fact extend to the Flametongue Kavu creature, which
will later try to deal damage. The Hallow will in fact prevent that
damage and gain you life. See the last sentence of 419.8a:

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules ]
| 419.8a [...] If the player chooses an artifact, creature, or
| enchantment spell, the prevention will apply to any damage from that
| spell and from the permanent that it becomes when it resolves.
`----

--
Peter C.
"Almost every secure Internet protocol requires a highly accurate
value of Pi in order to function correctly."
-- RFC 3091, "Pi Digit Generation Protocol"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:55:23 +0200, Ingo Kemper
<SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:35:15 GMT, NazMan wrote:

Hallow
{W}
Instant
Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life
equal to the damage prevented this way.

>>Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
>>or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?
>
>And/or to another player(s) or his/her creatures, yes. Hallow helps
>against any type of spell. Note, however, that creatures with
>comes-into-play damaging abilities (like Flametongue Kavu) don't deal
>their damage as the spell (which only puts the creature in play) but as
>a triggered _ability_ (which Hallow cannot target).
>
>>Can
>>it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
>>if it targets me or a Creature?
>
>No, because, these aren't spells but abilities.

But the abilities makes the creatures do the damage. In other words,
when a Flametongue Kavu comes into play, it puts an effect on the
stack, and when that effect resolves the Flametongue Kavu deals 4
damage to its target.
So Hallow would prevent the comes into play damage from a Flametongue
Kavu. And likewise it would prevent the Spikeshot's damage - though
only untill end of turn.

Flametongue Kavu
{3}{R}
Creature -- Kavu
4/2
When ~this~ comes into play, it deals 4 damage to target creature.

Spikeshot Goblin
{2}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Shaman
1/2
{R}, {T}: ~this~ deals damage equal to its power to target creature or
player.


Another example with this: Crypt Rats equipped with Sword of Kaldra.
If you activate the Rats' ability, then all creatures that does not
die will get removed from the game (barring any damage prevention),
because the Rats, and not the ability, dealt the damage.

Crypt Rats
{2}{B}
Creature -- Rat
1/1
{X}: ~this~ deals X damage to each creature and each player. Spend
only black mana this way.

Sword of Kaldra
{4}
Legendary Artifact -- Equipment
Equipped creature gets +5/+5.
Whenever equipped creature deals damage to a creature, remove that
creature from the game.
Equip {4} ({4}: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
creature leaves play.)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

NazMan, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Hello,
>
> I have some questions concerning the text of several cards that talk about
> adding mana.
>
> Cards one and two:
>
> Gemstone Array
> {4}
> Artifact
> {2}: Put a charge counter on Gemstone Array.
> Remove a charge counter from Gemstone Array: Add one mana of any color to
> your mana pool.
>
> Pentad Prism
> {2}
> Artifact
> Sunburst (This comes into play with a charge counter on it for each color of
> mana used to pay its cost.)
> Remove a charge counter from Pentad Prism: Add one mana of any color to your
> mana pool.
>
> For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge counter
> that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool from that point
> on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?

Neither of your options actually makes sense, sorry. You just add one
mana to your pool, exactly as though you had tapped a land. It behaves
like any other mana - once you spend it it's gone, if it's still in your
pool at the end of a phase it disapears and you take mana burn.

Maybe that's what you mean by your second option - it's not very clear,
sorry. I can't tell what "adding it to your pool from that point on in
the game" would mean either, but on any reasonable interpretation of
that I can think of it's definitely not what happens.

> The third card - same question:
>
> Channel the Suns
> {3}{G}
> Sorcery
> Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool.
>
> Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that point
> on OR just till end of turn? Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
> makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and so
> it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?

Same comments as above - you seem to have some serious misconceptions
about how mana works, and unfortunately I can't tell from your posts
what they are exactly. It simply adds five mana to your pool, which
behave exactly like any other mana (for example, mana you get from
tapping lands).

> And one more question while I am at it -
>
> Hallow
> {W}
> Instant
> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal to
> the damage prevented this way.
>
> I get very confused by this card. Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
> or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?

Pretty much, yes.

> Can
> it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
> if it targets me or a Creature?

No, since that's not a spell. A spell is a nonland card on the stack;
abilities are not spells, though they do behave similarly in most
respects, so things that specifically affect "spells" don't affect them.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr., worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> If you cast (Hallow) on a creature
> spell, and that creature that the spell turns into later would deal
> damage that turn, that damage would be prevented.

Is that true? I thought it only applied to things that edit
characteristics.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Peter Cooper Jr., worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> > If you cast (Hallow) on a creature
> > spell, and that creature that the spell turns into later would deal
> > damage that turn, that damage would be prevented.
>
> Is that true? I thought it only applied to things that edit
> characteristics.


Never mind - found 419.8a, which specifically extends this to damage
prevention as well.

419.8a Some effects apply to damage from a source-for example, "The next
time a red source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn,
prevent that damage." If an effect requires a player to choose a source,
he or she may choose either a permanent, a spell on the stack (including
an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell), or any card or permanent
referred to by a spell or ability on the stack. The source is chosen
when the effect is created. If the player chooses a permanent, the
prevention will apply to the next damage from that permanent, regardless
of whether it's from one of that permanent's abilities or combat damage
dealt by it. If the player chooses an artifact, creature, or enchantment
spell, the prevention will apply to any damage from that spell and from
the permanent that it becomes when it resolves.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:35:15 GMT, NazMan <cnazario@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
>I have some questions concerning the text of several cards that talk about
>adding mana.

Okay. If it's from an ACTIVATED ability, it's always a mana ability. If it's
from a TRIGGERED ability, it's only a mana ability if it triggers _off of_
a mana ability. Thus Wild Growth's triggered ability is a mana ability... but
Cathodion's isn't.

>Cards one and two:
>
>Gemstone Array 4 Artifact
> 2: Put a charge counter on ~. / Remove a charge counter from ~: Add one mana
> of any color to your mana pool.

The first ability is not a mana ability; it uses the stack, and can be
responded to or countered. It doesn't produce the charge counter until
resolution. The second ability is a mana ability - they do not +need+ to have
"Tap:" in the activation cost, it's just that the vast majority do - and can
be used any time you have priority, plus also any time you're asked to pay
mana. It does NOT use the stack.

>Pentad Prism 2 Artifact
> Sunburst (*) / Remove a charge counter from ~: Add one mana of any color to
> your mana pool.

Again, the second ability is an activated mana ability.

>For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge counter
>that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool from that point
>on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?

....Why in the _world_ would you get "forever mana" from this? The mana you
get from these acts just like any other mana: it stays in your pool until
it's used to pay for something, or until end of PHASE (not end of turn),
whichever comes FIRST.

>The third card - same question:
>
>Channel the Suns 3G Sorcery
> Add WUBRG to your mana pool.

This is a spell, so uses the stack. The mana it makes is just like any
other points of colored mana - it goes into your mana pool when made, and
floats there until used or until it manaburns you as the phase ends, again
whichever comes first.

>Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that point
>on OR just till end of turn?

Neither. You get five mana in your mana pool as this spell resolves; you
then have five mana more in your mana pool than you had before, one of each
color. You can use these points of mana just like any other points of
colored mana in your mana pool, whether they were made by the ability of a
basic land, by a Diamond, by a Wild Growth, by a Cathodion, or whatever.

Note that mana is NOT NOT NOT the same as "lands in play". Nearly all lands
have some _ability_ or other that can be used to MAKE mana in your mana
pool; this does NOT mean that the lands "are" the mana in any way at all.
Lands are permanents; land cards are cards, in any other zone. Mana is
invisibleand imaginary, and does not exist in any of the seven zones of
play of the game - it exists in an imaginary place called your "mana pool".

>Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
>makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and so
>it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?

Um - neither. The Sorcery's effect happens as it resolves; it doesn't have
any later effect from a delayed triggered ability, and doesn't make any
sort of continuous effect with a duration. It makes five points of mana, pow,
as a one-shot effect, then it's done. From there the mana is just ordinary
mana.

>Hallow W Instant
> Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life equal to
> the damage prevented this way.

Before I read further: manaburn is NOT DAMAGE, it's loss of life. And manaburn
isn't caused by any spell at all in any way; it's caused by a game rule, any
time either player has mana floating as any phase ends.

>I get very confused by this card. Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
>or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures? Can
>it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
>if it targets me or a Creature?

It can target any spell at all (even one that has no way to deal damage).
If the spell is an Instant or Sorcery, its effect will occur on resolution,
and Hallowing the spell prevents any damage that tries to be dealt as part
of that. If the spell is an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell, its
only effect on resolution will be "put <this> into play", and damage isn't
part of that... but the Hallow effect will "cling to" the permanent this makes,
and will prevent any damage that permanent would deal this turn and give you
life for it instead.

Hallow can't target an ability at all; spells are not abilities, and vice
versa. Hallow can't target a _permanent_ at all - permanents are no longer
spells once they're in play. So if the Goblin is already in play, Hallow is
useless against it. If opponent _casts_ the Goblin this turn, you can
Hallow it while it's a creature spell on the stack, which will prevent any
damage the Goblin creature would deal later that turn... but usually for a
creature without Haste, this is only useful to stop it dealing damage as it
blocks, AND usually it can't block on the turn it's cast (because usually
it's the caster's turn, and nobody is attacking THEM).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:50:10 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>Peter Cooper Jr., worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> If you cast (Hallow) on a creature
>> spell, and that creature that the spell turns into later would deal
>> damage that turn, that damage would be prevented.
>
>Is that true? I thought it only applied to things that edit characteristics.

(Un)fortunately, the rulebook never actually -defines- what that phrase means.
You're looking at 213.5, maybe? - and note that does NOT use the word "edit"
any more - but 419.8a, hidden down in Replacement and Prevention Abilities,
notes another exception to the general rule stated in 217.1c .

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ingo Kemper <SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>>Does it mean only a spell like a Sorcery
>>or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?
>
>And/or to another player(s) or his/her creatures, yes. Hallow helps
>against any type of spell. Note, however, that creatures with
>comes-into-play damaging abilities (like Flametongue Kavu) don't deal
>their damage as the spell (which only puts the creature in play) but as
>a triggered _ability_ (which Hallow cannot target).

Right. But: note that 419.8a _does_ say that the Hallow effect, if you
affect the Flametongue Kavu spell with it, will ALSO "stick around" and
prevent any damage the Kavu _creature_ later tries to deal that same turn. So
this _is_ useful to stop that Kavu's triggered comes-into-play damage. (You
just can't wait and try to target the -ability- itself with the Hallow, because
a) that's not a spell and b) abilities NEVER deal damage of their own anyway -
they always ALWAYS tell something _else_ to deal the damage.)

>>Can
>>it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot Goblin
>>if it targets me or a Creature?
>
>No, because, these aren't spells but abilities.

And also because Hallow can't target the Goblin creature in play - it's not
a spell, it stopped being one the moment it left the stack. (The original
querent may have any of a combination of misconceptions here...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>Same comments as above - you seem to have some serious misconceptions
>about how mana works, and unfortunately I can't tell from your posts
>what they are exactly.

I'm thinking it may have been the old old one "your mana pool equals your
collection of lands in play; your lands are your points of mana". Which is
not at all what's happening, of course - mana is invisible impalpable little
packets of magical energy, used to pay mana costs with (or manaburn from),
that float in your "mana pool", an imaginary "place". Lands are permanents
that sit in play under a player's control, and almost all of them have
abilities that can MAKE mana, but they are not themselves 'points of mana'
- they are just lands.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
> >Same comments as above - you seem to have some serious misconceptions
> >about how mana works, and unfortunately I can't tell from your posts
> >what they are exactly.
>
> I'm thinking it may have been the old old one "your mana pool equals your
> collection of lands in play; your lands are your points of mana". Which is
> not at all what's happening, of course - mana is invisible impalpable little
> packets of magical energy, used to pay mana costs with (or manaburn from),
> that float in your "mana pool", an imaginary "place". Lands are permanents
> that sit in play under a player's control, and almost all of them have
> abilities that can MAKE mana, but they are not themselves 'points of mana'
> - they are just lands.

That occurred to me, but I *still* couldn't make sense of a couple of
passages under that interpretation. I'm not as experienced as some -
especially you - with what the common newbie errors are, though (note
that not so very long ago, I started a thread asking people what the
most common mistakes they saw new players make were).

Personally I've never met anyone who confused mana with lands, except in
the sense of being a bit sloppy with terminology, but according to folks
on the WotC boards there are people who think that, for example, Dark
Ritual puts three swamps into play and Adarkar Wastes is essentially a
reusable Flooded Strand. (Which I personally think is scary...)
There's a whole movement there to put text back on basic lands to cut
down on this confusion.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 18 Jun 2004 23:37:01 -0400, David DeLaney wrote:

>note that 419.8a _does_ say that the Hallow effect, if you
>affect the Flametongue Kavu spell with it, will ALSO "stick around" and
>prevent any damage the Kavu _creature_ later tries to deal that same turn. So
>this _is_ useful to stop that Kavu's triggered comes-into-play damage.

So I take it that even though "target spell" is a targeting requirement
for Hallow, it's not a property the shield looks for when it checks
*419.8b* on whether to actually do something?

For example, if player A attacks with Swooping Talon and player B uses
Songstitcher's ability to set up a damage prevention shield successfully
(i.e. the ability resolves with the attacker still flying), the damage
will _still_ be prevented even if player A _then_ pays {1} before the
damage resolves to have Swooping Talon lose flying, although a Scarecrow
would no longer prevent that damage?

If that's true, then how can one tell that "target attacking creature
with flying" (Songstitcher) is _not_ a property 419.8b is looking at,
but something like "creature of your choice with shadow" (Circle of
Protection: Shadow) is? (Or am I missing a difference to Hallow here?)

Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ingo Kemper <SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>On 18 Jun 2004 23:37:01 -0400, David DeLaney wrote:
>>note that 419.8a _does_ say that the Hallow effect, if you
>>affect the Flametongue Kavu spell with it, will ALSO "stick around" and
>>prevent any damage the Kavu _creature_ later tries to deal that same turn. So
>>this _is_ useful to stop that Kavu's triggered comes-into-play damage.
>
>So I take it that even though "target spell" is a targeting requirement
>for Hallow, it's not a property the shield looks for when it checks
>*419.8b* on whether to actually do something?

Right. Legality of a target is checked twice: on announcement of the Hallow,
and on resolution. (And, if anything tries to change Hallow's target in
between, you have to check if the new target's legal. But that's it.) Once
the shield's created, it's not "a targetted shield" in any way; I can't think
of any offhand that _would_ behave that way, in fact.

>For example, if player A attacks with Swooping Talon and player B uses
>Songstitcher's ability to set up a damage prevention shield successfully
>(i.e. the ability resolves with the attacker still flying), the damage
>will _still_ be prevented even if player A _then_ pays {1} before the
>damage resolves to have Swooping Talon lose flying, although a Scarecrow
>would no longer prevent that damage?

Right. "Target attacking creature with flying" is a targetting requirement,
checked only on announcement and on resolution, before the shield's ever
actually made at all. "all damage that would be dealt to you this turn by
creatures with flying" isn't targetted... and actually falls under the "this
doesn't affect characteristics, so alters the rules while in effect" rule,
418.3b - so checks only when it's trying to prevent damage from a creature
whether that creature has flying. You don't "lock in a set of existing
creatures-with-flying" for Scarecrow's ability on resolution... but the
-target- for Songstitcher is chosen on announcement (and checked again
on resolution), and never checked for legality again afterwards.

>If that's true, then how can one tell that "target attacking creature
>with flying" (Songstitcher) is _not_ a property 419.8b is looking at,
>but something like "creature of your choice with shadow" (Circle of
>Protection: Shadow) is? (Or am I missing a difference to Hallow here?)

CoP: Shadow isn't targetting anything... so the "creature" and "with shadow"
can't be targetting specs, so have to be properties the shield itself checks
for. Hallow's "target spell" is a targetting spec, as is Songstitcher's
description.

(I can pass on up the question, of course; it may turn out I'm misinterpreting
_Songstitcher_ and that the targetting spec _also_ gets used later on as a
shield-matching spec. I don't think that's how it's meant to work, because
generally targetting specs are only checked as part of announcement/resolution
and never again after that, but I can make sure.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

To Jeff, Peter, Simon, Ingo and David,

Thanks to all of you for you replies - much appreciated. I see where my
misunderstandings are and now I have a much better understanding of the man
pool (and mana burn - which I was confused by).

And thanks for clearing up my confusion on Hallow

Regards,
NazMan


"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncd78se.pr5.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:35:15 GMT, NazMan <cnazario@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> >I have some questions concerning the text of several cards that talk
about
> >adding mana.
>
> Okay. If it's from an ACTIVATED ability, it's always a mana ability. If
it's
> from a TRIGGERED ability, it's only a mana ability if it triggers _off of_
> a mana ability. Thus Wild Growth's triggered ability is a mana ability...
but
> Cathodion's isn't.
>
> >Cards one and two:
> >
> >Gemstone Array 4 Artifact
> > 2: Put a charge counter on ~. / Remove a charge counter from ~: Add one
mana
> > of any color to your mana pool.
>
> The first ability is not a mana ability; it uses the stack, and can be
> responded to or countered. It doesn't produce the charge counter until
> resolution. The second ability is a mana ability - they do not +need+ to
have
> "Tap:" in the activation cost, it's just that the vast majority do - and
can
> be used any time you have priority, plus also any time you're asked to pay
> mana. It does NOT use the stack.
>
> >Pentad Prism 2 Artifact
> > Sunburst (*) / Remove a charge counter from ~: Add one mana of any color
to
> > your mana pool.
>
> Again, the second ability is an activated mana ability.
>
> >For both of these cards does this mean that if I remove a charge counter
> >that I add one mana of any color I get to add it to my pool from that
point
> >on i nthe game or is it added for just this turn?
>
> ...Why in the _world_ would you get "forever mana" from this? The mana you
> get from these acts just like any other mana: it stays in your pool until
> it's used to pay for something, or until end of PHASE (not end of turn),
> whichever comes FIRST.
>
> >The third card - same question:
> >
> >Channel the Suns 3G Sorcery
> > Add WUBRG to your mana pool.
>
> This is a spell, so uses the stack. The mana it makes is just like any
> other points of colored mana - it goes into your mana pool when made, and
> floats there until used or until it manaburns you as the phase ends, again
> whichever comes first.
>
> >Does this mean that I can add one of each color to my pool from that
point
> >on OR just till end of turn?
>
> Neither. You get five mana in your mana pool as this spell resolves; you
> then have five mana more in your mana pool than you had before, one of
each
> color. You can use these points of mana just like any other points of
> colored mana in your mana pool, whether they were made by the ability of a
> basic land, by a Diamond, by a Wild Growth, by a Cathodion, or whatever.
>
> Note that mana is NOT NOT NOT the same as "lands in play". Nearly all
lands
> have some _ability_ or other that can be used to MAKE mana in your mana
> pool; this does NOT mean that the lands "are" the mana in any way at all.
> Lands are permanents; land cards are cards, in any other zone. Mana is
> invisibleand imaginary, and does not exist in any of the seven zones of
> play of the game - it exists in an imaginary place called your "mana
pool".
>
> >Id oes not us the phrase "..End of turn" which
> >makes me think it is from that point on - BUT - it is also a Sorcery and
so
> >it would last as long as my Main Phase does - right?
>
> Um - neither. The Sorcery's effect happens as it resolves; it doesn't have
> any later effect from a delayed triggered ability, and doesn't make any
> sort of continuous effect with a duration. It makes five points of mana,
pow,
> as a one-shot effect, then it's done. From there the mana is just ordinary
> mana.
>
> >Hallow W Instant
> > Prevent all damage target spell would deal this turn. You gain life
equal to
> > the damage prevented this way.
>
> Before I read further: manaburn is NOT DAMAGE, it's loss of life. And
manaburn
> isn't caused by any spell at all in any way; it's caused by a game rule,
any
> time either player has mana floating as any phase ends.
>
> >I get very confused by this card. Does it mean only a spell like a
Sorcery
> >or an Instant that would deal damage t either me or one of my Creatures?
Can
> >it be used to prevent damage from a Creature ability like Spikeshot
Goblin
> >if it targets me or a Creature?
>
> It can target any spell at all (even one that has no way to deal damage).
> If the spell is an Instant or Sorcery, its effect will occur on
resolution,
> and Hallowing the spell prevents any damage that tries to be dealt as part
> of that. If the spell is an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell, its
> only effect on resolution will be "put <this> into play", and damage isn't
> part of that... but the Hallow effect will "cling to" the permanent this
makes,
> and will prevent any damage that permanent would deal this turn and give
you
> life for it instead.
>
> Hallow can't target an ability at all; spells are not abilities, and vice
> versa. Hallow can't target a _permanent_ at all - permanents are no longer
> spells once they're in play. So if the Goblin is already in play, Hallow
is
> useless against it. If opponent _casts_ the Goblin this turn, you can
> Hallow it while it's a creature spell on the stack, which will prevent any
> damage the Goblin creature would deal later that turn... but usually for a
> creature without Haste, this is only useful to stop it dealing damage as
it
> blocks, AND usually it can't block on the turn it's cast (because usually
> it's the caster's turn, and nobody is attacking THEM).
>
> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the
flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone
to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:05:23 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:

>David DeLaney, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>> >Same comments as above - you seem to have some serious misconceptions
>> >about how mana works, and unfortunately I can't tell from your posts
>> >what they are exactly.
>>
>> I'm thinking it may have been the old old one "your mana pool equals your
>> collection of lands in play; your lands are your points of mana". Which is
>> not at all what's happening, of course - mana is invisible impalpable little
>> packets of magical energy, used to pay mana costs with (or manaburn from),
>> that float in your "mana pool", an imaginary "place". Lands are permanents
>> that sit in play under a player's control, and almost all of them have
>> abilities that can MAKE mana, but they are not themselves 'points of mana'
>> - they are just lands.
>
>That occurred to me, but I *still* couldn't make sense of a couple of
>passages under that interpretation. I'm not as experienced as some -
>especially you - with what the common newbie errors are, though (note
>that not so very long ago, I started a thread asking people what the
>most common mistakes they saw new players make were).
>
>Personally I've never met anyone who confused mana with lands, except in
>the sense of being a bit sloppy with terminology,

I think this sort of confusion *follows from* the confusion in
terminology. If a player started referring to his land as mana, then
any other references to 'mana' would lead him to believe that those
references meant 'land'.
-- pseudosoldier

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
> Ingo Kemper <SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>> So I take it that even though "target spell" is a targeting
>> requirement for Hallow, it's not a property the shield looks for
>> when it checks *419.8b* on whether to actually do something?
>
> Right. Legality of a target is checked twice: on announcement of the
> Hallow, and on resolution. (And, if anything tries to change
> Hallow's target in between, you have to check if the new target's
> legal. But that's it.) Once the shield's created, it's not "a
> targetted shield" in any way; I can't think of any offhand that
> _would_ behave that way, in fact.

The rule that Ingo refers to (419.8b) could give that impression. Its
intent is that if I use a CoP:Red on a creature, and before it deals
damage it is no longer Red, the shield doesn't reply. Since Hallow
specifies "Prevent all damage target spell would deal", the fact that
it's preventing damage from a spell could be interpreted as one of the
"properties" that 419.8b refers to. (I understand that the current
ruling is that it does not, but I could understand that
interpretation.) Or does 419.8b only refer to things that use the word
"source"?

Perhaps we should get an Official Clarification on what "properties"
means in that rule? It's kinda vague...

--
Peter C.
"Keyboard? How quaint!"
-- Scotty, Star Trek IV