Memory Lapse

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Searching for an answer for "Darksteel Colossus / Memory Lapse"
interaction, I find this (from Saturday School #25):

Q: If a player played a flashback card (using the flashback ability)
and it gets Memory Lapsed, would the flashback card get removed from
the game or go into the top of his/her library?

A: It gets removed from the game.
When a spell finishes resolving, it usually goes to the graveyard.
Both Memory Lapse and flashback change this with replacement effects.
Memory Lapse has a so-called "self-replacement effect", because it
replaces part of its own effect, and must be applied first. You then
apply all other replacement effects to see where the card goes. Memory
Lapse replaces "goes to graveyard" with "goes to library", then
Flashback changes that to "remove from game."

This seems just contradictory to me: if Memory Lapse's replacement is
applied first, then Flashback has nothing to replace...
Where I fail?
Thanks in advance!
AA

PS: Sorry, an OT request... my (italian) newsserver don't support very
well this group (I can't read NetRep's messages, for example). Could
anybody recommend me a decent free server? Thanks again!
qebm@libero.it

 

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Acherontia atropos <andrea.mr@nospam.tin.it> writes:
> Searching for an answer for "Darksteel Colossus / Memory Lapse"
> interaction,

If a Darksteel Colossus gets Memory Lapsed, then it goes to the top of
the library (due to the Memory Lapse self-replacement effect), so it's
never trying to go to the graveyard, so the Colossus's own effect
doesn't apply.

> I find this (from Saturday School #25):
>
> Q: If a player played a flashback card (using the flashback ability)
> and it gets Memory Lapsed, would the flashback card get removed from
> the game or go into the top of his/her library?
>
> A: It gets removed from the game.
> When a spell finishes resolving, it usually goes to the graveyard.
> Both Memory Lapse and flashback change this with replacement effects.
> Memory Lapse has a so-called "self-replacement effect", because it
> replaces part of its own effect, and must be applied first. You then
> apply all other replacement effects to see where the card goes. Memory
> Lapse replaces "goes to graveyard" with "goes to library", then
> Flashback changes that to "remove from game."

Yup; this is correct. (Rune usually is.)

> This seems just contradictory to me: if Memory Lapse's replacement is
> applied first, then Flashback has nothing to replace...
> Where I fail?

Replacement effects are applied in order. You apply Memory Lapse
first, changing "counter and goes to the graveyard" into "counter and
goes to top of library". Then you apply flashback's effect, which
changes it to "counter and remove from the game".

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules <http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules> ]
| 502.22a Flashback is a static ability of some instant and sorcery
| cards that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. The
| phrase "Flashback [cost]" means "You may play this card from your
| graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you
| do, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere
| else any time it would leave the stack." Playing a spell using its
| flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in
| rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
`----

The thing that makes flashback different most other zone-change
replacement effects is that it doesn't care where it was originally
going to. Buyback, for instance, says "put the spell into your hand
instead of into your graveyard as it resolves". But Flashback says
"remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere
else". So often when Flashback is involved, the card will end up
removed from the game regardless, as it will get sent there regardless
of where other replacement effects are trying to make it go instead.

> Thanks in advance!

You're very welcome. Please post again if you have any more questions.

--
Peter C.
"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep."
-- W. C. Fields

 

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Acherontia atropos <andrea.mr@nospam.tin.it> wrote:

> Searching for an answer for "Darksteel Colossus / Memory Lapse"
> interaction, I find this (from Saturday School #25):
>
> Q: If a player played a flashback card (using the flashback ability)
> and it gets Memory Lapsed, would the flashback card get removed from
> the game or go into the top of his/her library?
>
> A: It gets removed from the game.
> When a spell finishes resolving, it usually goes to the graveyard.
> Both Memory Lapse and flashback change this with replacement effects.
> Memory Lapse has a so-called "self-replacement effect", because it
> replaces part of its own effect, and must be applied first. You then
> apply all other replacement effects to see where the card goes. Memory
> Lapse replaces "goes to graveyard" with "goes to library", then
> Flashback changes that to "remove from game."
>
> This seems just contradictory to me: if Memory Lapse's replacement is
> applied first, then Flashback has nothing to replace...
> Where I fail?

502.22. Flashback

502.22a Flashback is a static ability of some instant and sorcery cards
that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. The phrase
"Flashback [cost]" means "You may play this card from your graveyard by
paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, remove this
card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would
leave the stack." Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows
the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

The Flashback replaces "leave the stack" (NOT "go from the stack to the
graveyard") wth "remove from the game".

On the other hand, after the Memory Lapse's self-replacement effect, the
replacement effect on Darksteel Colossus becomes irrelevant.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Acherontia atropos <andrea.mr@nospam.tin.it> wrote:
>Searching for an answer for "Darksteel Colossus / Memory Lapse"
>interaction, I find this (from Saturday School #25):
>
>Q: If a player played a flashback card (using the flashback ability)
>and it gets Memory Lapsed, would the flashback card get removed from
>the game or go into the top of his/her library?
>
>A: It gets removed from the game.
>When a spell finishes resolving, it usually goes to the graveyard.
>Both Memory Lapse and flashback change this with replacement effects.
>Memory Lapse has a so-called "self-replacement effect", because it
>replaces part of its own effect, and must be applied first. You then
>apply all other replacement effects to see where the card goes. Memory
>Lapse replaces "goes to graveyard" with "goes to library", then
>Flashback changes that to "remove from game."

Right. Plus which, even if you could apply them in the other order, Flashback
would still "win": it replaces "leaves the stack to anywhere" with "leaves the
stack to the RFG zone", while Memory Lapse specifically replaces only "goes
to graveyard from stack" with "goes to library from stack".

>This seems just contradictory to me: if Memory Lapse's replacement is
>applied first, then Flashback has nothing to replace...

Nope. Look again: Flashback is NOT "if this would be put _into a graveyard_
from the stack, remove it from the game instead":

502.22a Flashback is a static ability of some instant and sorcery cards that
functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. The phrase "Flashback
[cost]" means "You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost]
rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, remove this card from the game
instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack".
Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying
alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Acherontia atropos, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Searching for an answer for "Darksteel Colossus / Memory Lapse"
> interaction, I find this (from Saturday School #25):
>
> Q: If a player played a flashback card (using the flashback ability)
> and it gets Memory Lapsed, would the flashback card get removed from
> the game or go into the top of his/her library?
>
> A: It gets removed from the game.
> When a spell finishes resolving, it usually goes to the graveyard.
> Both Memory Lapse and flashback change this with replacement effects.
> Memory Lapse has a so-called "self-replacement effect", because it
> replaces part of its own effect, and must be applied first. You then
> apply all other replacement effects to see where the card goes. Memory
> Lapse replaces "goes to graveyard" with "goes to library", then
> Flashback changes that to "remove from game."
>
> This seems just contradictory to me: if Memory Lapse's replacement is
> applied first, then Flashback has nothing to replace...
> Where I fail?
> Thanks in advance!
> AA

Flashback replaces going from the stack to *any* other zone with being
removed from the game:

502.22a Flashback is a static ability of some instant and sorcery cards
that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. The phrase
"Flashback [cost]" means "You may play this card from your graveyard by
paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, remove this
card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would
leave the stack." Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows
the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

Thus, as soon as the Memory Lapsed card leaves the stack, it gets RFGed
regardless of where it would otherwise go. It would be different if the
rule said "instead of putting it in your graveyard" rather than "instead
of putting it anywhere else".