News Microsoft promises it is 'ending USB-C port confusion' with updated Windows 11 certified program

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This is unexpected and promising.

I wonder if it will be followed even for low-end devices like Wildcat Lake, that may not have much I/O to spare. I guess so, since even the 5 Gbps ports can technically support a display.

Findecanor said:
It does not include HDMI alt mode or MHL alt mode over USB-C.
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I thought that HDMI alt mode was unused and dead:
arstechnica.com

RIP HDMI Alt Mode, we hardly knew ye

After failing to release any cables or adapters, HDMI Alt Mode is dead.
arstechnica.com arstechnica.com
 
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But they won't mandate USB-C ports be USB4-40gbps or greater, so the "confusion" I predict will only increase as manufacturers cut costs from having to support charging on any port.
 
This sounds great, in theory, but my understanding is that routing every function to every port raises the complexity of motherboard design and increases cost to a level where it just doesn't make sense to put two "do everything" type-C ports on each side of a low-end machine, even if buyers say they want the flexibility.

I feel like the maliciously-compliant OEM approach to this would be to just provide less type-C ports, and/or choose to leave USB4 out of machines that would otherwise get one "better" port in order to avoid triggering the requirement that they bring every type-C port up to being a Thunderbolt 3 compatible USB4 port. Last I checked, 4 ports all supporting Thunderbolt 3 was still something you only got on pretty expensive machines.
 
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Any new desktop or laptop made after 2025 should be required to come with USB4 and all its functionality, 80Gbps etc etc. This is another indication that new technology is only for rich people and the rest of us will enjoy it in 5-10 years when they finally start standardizing it and by then USB6 will be out
 
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jlake3 said:
This sounds great, in theory, but my understanding is that routing every function to every port raises the complexity of motherboard design and increases cost to a level where it just doesn't make sense to put two "do everything" type-C ports on each side of a low-end machine, even if buyers say they want the flexibility.

I feel like the maliciously-compliant OEM approach to this would be to just provide less type-C ports, and/or choose to leave USB4 out of machines that would otherwise get one "better" port in order to avoid triggering the requirement that they bring every type-C port up to being a Thunderbolt 3 compatible USB4 port. Last I checked, 4 ports all supporting Thunderbolt 3 was still something you only got on pretty expensive machines.
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Only Intel produce Thunderbolt chips and theu are a little costly. The main issue is that Thunderbolt give access to all hardware including ram, the chip intend for the CPU to manage security access. Intel CPU have a fully compatible security module, but AMD have there own security module which Intel chip isn't compatible.
The motherboard manufacturer need to make a bridge to AMD cpu security module for the hardware to make it secure.
Only Asrock and Gigabyte have made motherboards for AMD cpu with Thunderbolt in 2020 but stopped when security concerns were raised if any USB device plugged can access all hardware (including memory) without restriction.
 
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>I feel like the maliciously-compliant OEM approach to this would be to just provide less type-C ports, and/or choose to leave USB4 out of machines that would otherwise get one "better" port

The number & type (speed) of USB-C port is a marketing upsell, ie higher-tier products get more/faster ports. The MS mandate doesn't change this equation.

The new MS standard doesn't change that much. USB4 is based on TB3 and compatibility is already required, just not every TB3 feature is supported on some (cheaper) implementations, eg PCIe tunneling. Now it will be.

The only major changes are video-out (DP Alt) will work on USB3, and full TB3 compat on USB4. The mandate doesn't change charging & data speed; it just standardizes them.

Sleep/wake functionality is IMO a bigger deal than most realize. Good to see it's included in the mandate.

Lastly, OEMs don't need to comply with the MS mandate. Those w/o compliance just won't get WHCP cert, and can't be marketed as "Certified for Windows." It doesn't mean Windows can't run on those devices. I imagine all mainstream OEMs will comply, but lower-tier white-label boxes may forgo the cert.


>Ok one port does it all. But what about cables? One couldn't fish a random USB-C cable from the bottom of the drawer and think it will work at 80Gbps with 240W power delivery? No it will still fail.

Yep, cable confusion is outside the scope of the mandate. IMO, it's a user responsibility. I tag all my USB-C cables when I buy them to tell them apart. By default, any unlabeled cable is viewed as a charge-only, USB2-data part.
 
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lduguay said:
Ok one port does it all. But what about cables? One couldn't fish a random USB-C cable from the bottom of the drawer and think it will work at 80Gbps with 240W power delivery? No it will still fail.
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Exactly this.
Reading this article, I began thinking to myself if this would help at all what I experienced while traveling:

I attempted to hook up my portable display to my work laptop. First usbc-usbc cable I dug out of my bag, powered up the screen but the computer didn’t recognize it as a display.
Second cable, same thing.
Third cable, finally the screen was seen as a screen and displayed properly.

A quick google search, and I found that some devices to save cost will ship usbc cables which are only capable of charging but not data transfer? Is that a total cost savings of a wire or two within the cable?

I’m pretty sure I would still be in usbc hell.
 
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Time to move USB cabling to mixed wire-optical. Power over wires, signal over optical. Easier, cheaper, lighter, smaller, fast like hell, more bandwidth, almost no length restrictions to provide 8k bandwidth up to 100 meters away, smaller bandwidth - kilometers.

And in some cases (external harddrives for example) no power delivery from USB port actually needed because larger external harddrive adapters have their own power supplies

One single USB port will be enough for everyone for all their needs...oops somebody already said that before
 
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Stomx said:
Time to move USB cabling to mixed wire-optical. Power over wires, signal over optical. Easier, cheaper, lighter, smaller, fast like hell, more bandwidth, almost no length restrictions to provide 8k bandwidth up to 100 meters away, smaller bandwidth - kilometers.

And in some cases (external harddrives for example) no power delivery from USB port actually needed because larger external harddrive adapters have their own power supplies

One single USB port will be enough for everyone for all their needs...oops somebody already said that before
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This is a good idea until you need to quickly stuff the cable into a small bag. (snap)
 
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Exploding PSU said:
Hopefully it won't be a..

"We have 10 different standards! Let's make one standard to rule them all!"
"We now have 11 different standards!"

... kind of situation.
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This XKCD is great but in this case I think it's acutally decreasing the different standards. Instead of having one port for power, one for data, one for display, each port will do everything.

If this is more for the MS badge of approval, that standard already exists so nothing new, it's just refined.
 
Macocalypse said:
Meanwhile every Mac since 2015 forward that has type-c ports already do this.
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Yeah that’s what I loved about using a Mac (have to use some x86 windows only software for work so I have a Lenovo now), but to be fair if the makers of windows laptops could all charge Apple-prices for their stuff they’d probably do better in stuff like ports too.

Also since starting my own business I’d rather look around to find a laptop with decent ports than pay $1000 for some storage and another $1000 for some ram on top of what is already a pretty expensive laptop.

When my employer asked “what laptop would you like?” Without caring about the costs (up to a point) I didn’t feel the ridiculous prices Apple charges for minor upgrades, but when paying for them myself….
 
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Macocalypse said:
Meanwhile every Mac since 2015 forward that has type-c ports already do this.
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No, it is not. My mac mini M4 Pro doesn't have display support on the front ports. Only mac studio with "Ultra" version supports display output on the front ports and there is no any clear labeling for that. Also only 1 of my 3 portable monitors works on macbook pro and mac mini without second usb-c for power (all of them work on the desktop with asrock Z790 pg-itx/tb4 using single cable)
 
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I'll give the benefit of the doubt to MS on this one. At least they're trying to do something not even the USB consortium cares about anymore.

Time will tell if this is a rare MS 'W', but I rather support them in putting some "order" in the USB house than letting them get away with the craziness.

Regards.
 
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Anyone need to write a degree thesis examining the worst possible way to segment and describe products to confuse consumers and industry alike? Look no further than USB! Confusion generation over generation in perfection!

I'm guessing - someone tell me if i am wrong - that the implementation diversity was spawned less from production cost cutting, but more from some kind of patent insanity. "Want fries with that? Adding +20w power delivery to your cable will cost you 0,02 in production cost plus a mere 4$ in patent fees!"

All the giants sent highly-paid experts to meetings for decades to bicker about the last tiny advantage for their employers. That has to get refinanced somehow....
Pessimistically yours, PC :pensive:
 
AkroZ said:
Only Intel produce Thunderbolt chips and theu are a little costly. The main issue is that Thunderbolt give access to all hardware including ram, the chip intend for the CPU to manage security access. Intel CPU have a fully compatible security module, but AMD have there own security module which Intel chip isn't compatible.
The motherboard manufacturer need to make a bridge to AMD cpu security module for the hardware to make it secure.
Only Asrock and Gigabyte have made motherboards for AMD cpu with Thunderbolt in 2020 but stopped when security concerns were raised if any USB device plugged can access all hardware (including memory) without restriction.
Click to expand...
how is thunderbolt currently supported on apple silicon? Interested more in macbooks and mac pro than iPhone
 
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Couldn't Windows just be programmed to tell the user why a plugged-in decice isn't working? Making specific port requirements for laptops will reduce the options to manufacturers, won't solve cable incompatibilities, and won't help desktop users.
 
Also I'm left questioning more and more why USB type-C as a display and power connector needs to be ubiquitous. It's useful as a docking station port (although it's far less convenient than the Dell docking station I used at work years ago). But it's not helpful when I need to connect a display to a desktop or transfer photos from my phone or connect a flash drive.
  • When I connect a display to my desktop, DisplayPort is all I need. If the display has USB ports then a separate USB cable is okay.
  • When I connect my phone to transfer photos, I don't want to have to keep track of which cables which appear identical will charge the phone versus charging and transferring.
  • When I connect a flash drive I don't need display, so a port dedicated to data and power which is clearly marked is all I need.
It's nice that one port lets me connect a dock to my ROG Ally or two ports get me two displays, a mouse, a keyboard, and a webcam on my work laptop. And it'd be really awesome if I had a laptop with an external GPU. But aside from those cases, I wish USB ports were for data and power, DisplayPorts were for display, and barrel or magnetic connectors were for laptop power.

And eGPU-capable laptops are rare and eGPU enclosures even more rare, and expensive. For most people, they may as well not exist.
 
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Was surprised to find that although my old Latitude charges over USB-C, my much newer Inspiron doesn't

Fortunately I happened to bring the latter's charger with me when I made this discovery, but come on
 
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